diy solar

diy solar

Can Solar & Wind Fix Everything (e.g., Climate Change) with a battery break-through?

Humans may be a little too arrogant in thinking they can engineer the climate.
We already are and have been for over a century. Just not in a good way.

All we are seeking is to change how we do things so we do no further damage. Significantly reducing/eliminating pollution (including greenhouse gas emissions) and waste is a damn good start.
 
We already are and have been for over a century. Just not in a good way.

All we are seeking is to change how we do things so we do no further damage. Significantly reducing/eliminating pollution (including greenhouse gas emissions) and waste is a damn good start.
That's not the kind of thing I have any concern with .... I don't think there is any downside to reducing greenhouse gasses ... and we should all do our part.

What I'm talking about is grand plans like sending a thousand planes and spreading particles into the upper atmosphere.
 
All we are seeking is to change how we do things so we do no further damage.
Even the best ideas need justification.
On monday solar installers came in and replaced next doors 5 year old 1500w system with a 6kw system. Australian government initiatives and pushy solar sales agents are destroying the 'solar is green' dream as 8 more panels head off to landfill.
 
Australian government initiatives and pushy solar sales agents are destroying the 'solar is green' dream as 8 more panels head off to landfill.
Perhaps - the environmental cost of panels going to landfill isn't all that much though. They are pretty benign.

Ripping off the aluminium frames is easily done and the aluminium readily recycled. Besides, going to landfill may be better than the environmental cost of recycling them. And it's still way better than extracting energy from fossil fuels.

Still, panel recycling is beginning to emerge as recycling processes improve, e.g.:

I agree it's preferable to leave an older functioning system in place where possible but often they take up valuable roof real estate which could be more productive, financially and environmentally.

Your neighbour's new system is going to reduce carbon emissions by a lot more than the old one could. Embedded carbon costs with solar PV are in the order of 2 years to repay (grid scale wind turbines repay their embedded carbon cost within months).

This upgrade cycle will happen for a while but it will slow since it's mostly homes with systems installed 5+ years ago when system sizes were much smaller. Nowadays most solar PV systems being installed are at or close to the regulatory size limit for connection of small scale generation systems to the grid, and so there will be much less incentive to replace them with a larger system in the years ahead.

In many cases the upgrade of home solar PV also comes with an elimination of natural gas appliances as homes go fully electric. This is a specific strategy in Victoria for instance as homes are now incentivised to change their space and water heating from gas to efficient electric heat pump RCAC.

Old panels do have second hand use other than landfill - I recently put up an off-grid system using pre-loved panels, pre loved rails and pre-loved batteries. It's obviously not going to use all of them, but panels going to landfill is a reality. It's just not as bad a reality as the alternative.
 
Ah, yeah, that's up there with a whole load of other nonsense which at best make useful fodder for April Fool's Day jokes.

That's one of Bill Gates ideas .... Some of us have differing opinions of some of Bills ideas .... I'm not onboard with most of his ideas.
 
...Humans may be a little too arrogant in thinking they can engineer the climate....
Have to agree with @wattmatters, we've been engineering the climate for centuries to favor the rise of crocodiles (who knew they had mind control?). It was arrogance, but the other way round ... that our actions wouldn't affect anything. But it's a closed system... without sufficient sinks it seems logical it would build up and start affecting things.

I've heard the nuke to trigger global cooling too... I could see any of the superpowers thinking about doing it unilaterally. At least we have some data on that from prior atmospheric testing. Personally, EVs and batteries seem a lot less drastic and more possible to undo considering the potential for unknown consequences (e.g., at the start of fracking everyone (including me) thought natural gas was better than coal... little did we know that the sulfur dioxide was an anti-greenhouse gas reducing the impact of CO2 by 50% (just thought it caused acid rain) and switching accelerated global warming... oops!).

That's one of Bill Gates ideas .... Some of us have differing opinions of some of Bills ideas .... I'm not onboard with most of his ideas.
That was actually Harvard University's idea, but Bill did fund them. As far as I know, they never actually released any aerosols (update: Thanks @wattmatters for the Snope's link!). BTW, the IPCC report does say aerosols from volcanoes do provide some cooling.

But, right or wrong, he's out there making noise about it and plunking his $$ down to get things moving. So that earns my respect.
 
I have not found Snopes to be a reliable source of fact checking .... their "facts" are influenced by their political persuasion.

Here is an article that explains the idea in more detail ... and while it is true that the initial testing will only involve a small amount of particles ..... they are doing this to test and see if it can be used on a larger scale ... and in my mind, that kind of thinking is dangerous.

 
Svetz and I already had our discussion about Bill Gates .... and I don't think it's likely either of us will change the other's impression.
 
This upgrade cycle will happen for a while but it will slow since it's mostly homes with systems installed 5+ years ago when system sizes were much smaller. Nowadays most solar PV systems being installed are at or close to the regulatory size limit for connection of small scale generation systems to the grid, and so there will be much less incentive to replace them with a larger system in the years ahead.

This argument is the primary reason why solar and wind etc wont fix everything. Every 5 years there will not be enough and we will need more!
That first caveman discovering fire and looking out on his forests of never ending wood supply!!

There is also the problematical fact that increasing living standards outstrips population growth in causing climate change.
 
Here is an article that explains the idea in more detail ... and while it is true that the initial testing will only involve a small amount of particles ..... they are doing this to test and see if it can be used on a larger scale ... and in my mind, that kind of thinking is dangerous.

The article you linked says no aerosols were released:
...The launch will not release any stratospheric aerosols. Rather, it will serve as a test to maneuver the balloon and examine communications and operational systems....
So I'd say Snopes has the gist of it.
 
We have already surpassed a normal year's worth of rain as of this weekend. It's just logical that as the oceans warm, more water vapor will be released, and the convection cells will carry more water to wet regions, and more dry air to dry regions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadley_cell

With 79% of energy demand supplied by hydrocarbons, there isn't a good future scenario that doesn't involve nuclear power, which is extremely safe.

Probably the major inhibitor of solar adoption is that most people, outside of RVers, aren't aware that even a minimum expense system of generation and storage can support a lot of wants and needs. It's quite easy to run electronics like phones, lighting, a router and even a toaster on a cheap system. Everyone thinks a system is going to cost them the price of an automobile, because their first thought is that refrigeration or air conditioning is a modest goal.

There are even CPAP/COPD machines that use less than 100watts, and it's only a step up from there for an O2 concentrator. Ergo, it should be seen as a pragmatic investment for an ever growing part of the population.
 
Even the best ideas need justification.
On monday solar installers came in and replaced next doors 5 year old 1500w system with a 6kw system. Australian government initiatives and pushy solar sales agents are destroying the 'solar is green' dream as 8 more panels head off to landfill.
There should totally be a program to take all the old panels and install them in a new location until they don't produce power!

Would be a beautiful location to visit. Many different solar panels from different places.

Any engineer would be able to analyze the range of dimensions of installed panels and come up with a mounting system to accommodate all sorts of size panels :)
 
There should totally be a program to take all the old panels and install them in a new location until they don't produce power!
But what if that cost is more than it's worth?

BTW - installers who rip down old systems invariably also cut the cables. It's just more efficient way to get them down quickly. Makes re using them a bit of a PITA though.
 
But what if that cost is more than it's worth?
Then don’t do it ?
BTW - installers who rip down old systems invariably also cut the cables. It's just more efficient way to get them down quickly. Makes re using them a bit of a PITA though.
I can add MC-4 connector to a panel in 5-10min, a bit more if i solder the crimp ?

People go on about how much energy goes into manufacturing photovoltaic cells, I just meant to say that if the cell can still generate electricity and the value of that electricity is more than the cost of installing it on a farm designed to fit mixed sizes, why not?
 
But there are faster warming periods in our history
The one wildcard that is seldom mentioned is what ‘probability’ means. It means it’s a theory. Maybe a well-constructed even scientifically sound (for our current understanding) but still a theory.

I read the 1941 usda report on farming and climate. It’s interesting to note the warming-trend warnings in that thick book discuss things in a way that sortof were harbingers of current conditions- and they had no concept of the quantity of ‘greenhouse gasses’ the future would present. And yet there it is, 80 years ago, or roughly halfway in to the current idea of “the last 200 years of industrialization.”

So folks like me- admittedly a small subset- have trouble with the climate-change-disaster theorists who discuss probabilities in a hypothesis that is postulated as fact. The fact is we don’t have all the information- yet.

I sorta look at all these international meetings and climate change conferences as a longer, slower debacle that I liken to the Y2K incident where so many experts claimed teotwaki was imminent. The impact was so great that (while it wasn’t the birth of “prepping”) prepping became such a big thing to the point there’s multiple print/paper magazines out now while dozens of once-popular magazine decades old are dying off.

I stand back and watch.

If- and it may well be- climate change is the coming human disaster we will not solve it while so many of the brightest minds are chasing a unicorn created as fact when in fact we need to be figuring out what we don’t know. Trying to prove or disprove a theory and discussions is what politics has brought this to. It’s not a maturing science, it’s an organism, a corralling of a herd of unicorns. It’s looking to prove a theory not discovery of facts.
 
Bob B said:
Humans may be a little too arrogant in thinking they can engineer the climate

parallels with the biblical Original Sin and the Tower of Babel if you wanna have fun with ‘arrogance’ as a word; no matter your religious views the philosophy perspective is enlightening. Arrogance at its root is a superiority complex. “A man ought not to think more highly of himself than he ought”
 
... there isn't a good future scenario that doesn't involve nuclear power, which is extremely safe....
The problem I see with nuclear is the $/W. If battery prices fall as expected, it won't be
cost-competitive without new breakthroughs reducing costs (folks are working on it).
800px-20201019_Levelized_Cost_of_Energy_%28LCOE%2C_Lazard%29_-_renewable_energy.svg.png

The one wildcard that is seldom mentioned is what ‘probability’ means. It means it’s a theory. Maybe a well-constructed even scientifically sound (for our current understanding) but still a theory.
The only thing in the IPCC report that is "unequivocal" is the global temperature is rising (but that's based on measurements, not theory) and humans are adding to it. Everything else is couched in probabilities (see #88). They seem to have a pretty good handle on their accuracy, for example, the climate models have an upper and lower range and even the older less accurate models were within their stated "accuracy" range for a decade. But I hear you, people take the "irreversible" out of context when it only means no longer reversible for a few hundred years. A lot of what I haven't bothered reporting out of the report is because it is less than 50% likely, figured there was more than enough over 50% likely ;-)

It’s interesting to note the warming-trend warnings in that thick book discuss things in a way that sortof were harbingers of current conditions- and they had no concept of the quantity of ‘greenhouse gasses’ the future would present.
From what I've been reading, it hasn't changed much. My suspicion is the climate models are based on the hard science (e.g., black body radiation, reflection, energy balance) give numbers too high because the climate is tempered by still unknown things and things very hard to model or less well understood. The models factor that in and end up giving pretty good numbers based on greenhouse gas concentrations because they can put a "box" around the rest of it. Every year as we learn more the models have get a little better and are less tied to just greenhouse gas concentrations. That doesn't mean I think the models are ready for what-if "creative" solutions (e.g., nukes for global cooling); what's inside the unknown box could have big impacts. But I believe they are good enough to predict greenhouse gas reductions. Guess the younger folks will find out, that seems to be the popular choice.

I sorta look at all these international meetings and climate change conferences as a longer, slower debacle that I liken to the Y2K incident where so many experts claimed teotwaki was imminent.
I used to feel that way until I started this thread to investigate it. The difference for me now is there is unequivocal proof the global temperature is rising and greenhouse gases play a role in the temperature. Then there's that really annoying temperature plot in #78 that shows we're way below normal making me think a +10°F rise should be coming anyway. So, natural or man-made it makes no difference, change is happening. The question I think is should we do something about it? We have the capability, but I fear we lack long-term understanding of possible consequences. So, reducing greenhouse gases seems the safest option for now.

The IPCC picture in #95 for a 4°C rise shows more rain, more drought, and more violent storms. A lot of the change would take centuries to reverse just by reducing greenhouse gases, so the sea-level rise would continue. Famine and wars seem inevitable. But, they've happened in the past and will happen in the future too.

The problem with Y2K as an analogy is you never know when nothing happened if it was because it was never a problem, or because of the hard work people invested to make sure nothing bad happened.

I stand back and watch.
Nah, you installed solar. You're a part of the solution. Although probably like me, you probably did it to save $, as one of the three great motivators it's a great way to influence change. :LOL:

.... we need to be figuring out what we don’t know....
Very true words. (y)

Trying to prove or disprove a theory and discussions is what politics has brought this to. It’s not a maturing science, it’s an organism, a corralling of a herd of unicorns. It’s looking to prove a theory not discovery of facts.
Fear of a thing is one of the three great motivators. It sells the news, so it is easy to communicate. Fear can override logical thought, making fodder to be corraled into one way of thinking and therefore controlled. We see fears get hyped all the time, occasionally good comes out of it, most often not - usually it divides us.

Realistically, anything that smacks of austerity is going to be a highly charged political topic and lots will use it towards their own ends.

But from the evidence I've seen while researching this, there are plenty of people pushing the boundaries on what we know and contributing to science. The IPCC report makes it clear they don't know everything. There is also healthy criticism which helps keep the science accurate.

But there's also this sense of denial, that people deny either because they somehow derive benefit by denying or are too stupid to understand facts. Climate is not religion, to be a matter of faith. A lot of that may be from followers who believe without fully understanding the science is far from complete. Sure, global warming is happening...but knowing that doesn't mean we understand all the nuances.
 
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