Can the electrical grid handle a boom in electric vehicles?

[Hedges]

Annual fee? That would penalize grandma who only drive to church on Sunday, be a bargain for the traveling salesman.
Maybe somebody hopes we'll all just hail Uber. But capacity won't match commute patterns.

I'm gonna do a stealth EV conversion. Never pay gas tax 'cause I don't burn any, and not pay EV reg fee neither.

I thought (reasonable) gas tax is good. More fuel consumption equates to more road wear, and you pay more. EV's pay zero and have less spare power to burn up the pavement (no longer the case with Tesla). But tax-free driving rewards them for keeping our air clean.

I think we just need more efficient (i.e. less consuming, smaller) government.

 

[svetz]

Annual fee? That would penalize grandma who only drive to church on Sunday, be a bargain for the traveling salesman.

Yep. ICEers were all for poor old grandma having to foot the bill. <insert evil diabolic laughter> wait until they get EVs... the joke will be on them. We don't mind paying it though, we use the roads and the taxes are for their upkeep... so we need to do our fair share. It's also worth it for the privacy, with gas they know by the gallon you buy. With electricity they'd have to inspect your vehicle or have some meter on your charger, I don't like either of those ideas.

But, grandma actually makes out okay... EVs are exceptionally good at not needing to be run every few days so she saves on maintenance.

 

[noenegdod]

Most municipalities are already considering that.

Where I live there's a fee on cars included in the registration cost where EVs and PHEVs have two additional taxes to make up for the lost revenue.

How much are these additional taxes? And what rebates do those vehicles have that will not be in place once the tide has shifted and EVs are the only viable option? Dont forget that tax at the pump isnt the only source of revenue the government receives from petrolium. There are numerous spots through out the supply chain that government dips in and takes a taste along the way. I doubt anyone would consider an EV if they had no rebates and the full loss of revenue an EV presents was front loaded on the purchase.

 

[Hedges]

I doubt anyone would consider an ICE (at least burning the Middle East Oil) if they had to pay the true cost of beating back pirates to The Shores of Tripoli.

I don't want subsidies for EVs. I want no subsidies for ICE. I shouldn't be paying with income taxes for your Florida oranges trucked to California.

 

[noenegdod]

We already do pay for the pirates. The oil companies work that into the equation. That would be like saying insurance companies dont pass the cost of losses through to the rest of us and that somewhere along the line they are subsidized. The end user pays, always. Its not always the end user of the actual product that is being consumed. In this case ICE consumers are paying for EV consumers through short sighted government regulation. All of which will stop once the ICE marked is exhausted.

 

[Sanwizard]

Grid sourced will become an issue. We already see the grid start to break down in several areas under not-so-peak demands.

Think of current gas stations.... they are not connected via pipelines to have endless capacity. They have local storage and ongoing operations to keep that local storage supplied.

These dispersed EV charge points are already one step better then the gas station networks as generation (solar) and storage are both local in most cases; with grid used to back-fill when local generation/storage can not cover the peaks.

The challenge will be to get EV charge points deployed with enough volume to cover the needs. Right now between DC and NYC there is often a 1+ hour wait to get plugged in at the few SuperCharge stations - so your stop time becomes 1.5 to 2 hours total.

We recently did a trip in our Audi Q5 Diesel with another family in a Tesla X for a family trip to Florida. Left DC area fully fueled, and Tesla fully charged. The Q5 made it into Orlando with one refuel stop in 13.5 hours. The Tesla took 19 hours due to needing 3 stops to charge, each taking >1.5 hours by the time getting off highway, waiting for free charge port, doing a full charge, and getting back onto highway.

We had made it to Orlando, stopped at the Walmart for the grocery pickup and to refuel, and got to the rental home and unpacked and settled, cooked dinner, had a family swim for a few hours, and were sleeping when the other vehicle arrived..... Those were good family memories lost due to the inadequate EV charge capacity along that route.

I dont understand the need for pure electric cars, when hybrid like the prius work just as well. I am hoping fuel cell based vehicles become more prevalent.
I find it kinda interesting when folks think they are "saving the planet" with their $90,000 Tesla, as the local dated coal fired plant burns fossile fuels to power it, and their electric costs skyrocket.

It would make more sense for those with Electric vehicles to leverage their own personal solar micro grid to power it for local travel. Hybrid or fuel cell makes more sense to me for long distances.

 

[svetz]

I don't want subsidies for EVs. I want no subsidies for ICE. I shouldn't be paying with income taxes for your Florida oranges trucked to California.

Most of our orange trees had to be destroyed from the blight a few years back, it's a slow recovery. But thanks for shipping yours to us!

How much are these additional taxes?

You could look up exact numbers off the county's tax page... but I think it was around $50 for a PHEV and $250 for an EV.

I doubt anyone would consider an EV if they had no rebates and the full loss of revenue an EV presents was front loaded on the purchase.

If I could afford it and it met my range/charge needs I would in a heart-beat. That other stuff exists on everything.
From an engineering perspective I favor EVs far more than ICE for it's lower complexity and higher reliability. A fuel-cell PHEV like the Honda Clarity would be great if I had access to hydrogen and it was a pickup truck.

 

[Tony Scott]

A more relevant problem for mass adoption of EV's in the US is that a sizeable portion of the urban population don't have access to charge their cars at home due to living in an apartment with street parking, where they can't establish charging stations easily. The grid will deal with the load from EV charging just fine. Heck, just look at California - they're now dealing with a massive overabundance of power during the day, part of that power could be used to charge vehicles, if offices and other workplaces had EV chargers.

Another aspect of this is that most people who don't own an EV wildly overestimate how much charging power they actually need. I own a Tesla Model S with a 75 kWh pack, and I only have a 20A/240V outlet at home. Yet I have never had any issues with being able to charge it up fast enough, even when coming home late at night with a low state of charge. 8 hours of charging at 4.7kW net charge power is 37.6 kWh, 37.6 kWh is enough to drive over 120 miles, which is more than enough to get me to work (and back), or to get started on a trip before I would need a (short) charge stop at a supercharger.

Also, as others have mentioned, you're getting that information from a site that has a clear anti-EV bias.

I am going to disagree with CA having excess power to handle things. There are millions of people were 120 miles would leave them stranded. On a national level it will not work as thing currently stand and I don't see any real improvement coming. I do see countries moving toward Hydrogen Furl cells. As far as tesla goes, he lost a lost a lawsuit and had to return $16,000 to every Tesla owner for lying about battery life and changing times.

California's Power Grid Operator Urges Residents To Conserve Energy Amid Heat Wave

California's power grid operator is asking residents to conserve power for a few hours Thursday evening as record-breaking heat blankets the West this week.

gooddaysacramento.cbslocal.com

Tesla owes thousands of customers in Norway $16,000 each in fines over reduced battery capacities

Tesla has been ordered to pay 136,000 kroner – approximately $16,000 – to thousands of its Norwegian customers, following complaints about reduced battery capacities and charging speeds.

www.rt.com

 

[Tony Scott]

I doubt anyone would consider an ICE (at least burning the Middle East Oil) if they had to pay the true cost of beating back pirates to The Shores of Tripoli.

I don't want subsidies for EVs. I want no subsidies for ICE. I shouldn't be paying with income taxes for your Florida oranges trucked to California.

Rember Electric Companies are Public Utilities and look how that has worked out. Expect electric Bill's to double with fees.

 

[noenegdod]

If I could afford it and it met my range/charge needs I would in a heart-beat. That other stuff exists on everything.
From an engineering perspective I favor EVs far more than ICE for it's lower complexity and higher reliability. A fuel-cell PHEV like the Honda Clarity would be great if I had access to hydrogen and it was a pickup truck.

We would all do everything, if we could afford it.

Thats not what I was saying. Right now, EVs dont pay taxes on their fuel. The fuel is cheap because the infrastructure required to support the supply of electricity to your house is cheap. The infrastructure required to use a vehicle is currently supported by taxes on gasoline. When a barrel of oil is pulled out of the ground, the government gets a taste of that as well as several other source of revenue. That will all be gone once EVs are the majority of vehicles. That revenue has to come from somewhere. Go look up what portion of fuel cost is tax and government fees. Then figure out each year how much fuel you use and how much you would have to pay up front.

Obviously a flat up front charge is not possible. Grandma vs traveling sales man argument. The whole point of what I was trying to say is that eventually, electricity going into your car is going to need to be metered and you will be paying a lot more for that electricity.

 

[Wibla]

As far as tesla goes, he lost a lost a lawsuit and had to return $16,000 to every Tesla owner for lying about battery life and changing times.

Caveat: I live in Norway.

30 Tesla S85(D) owners took Tesla to small claims court over reduced charging speed. Tesla somehow didn't receive the summons, so they defaulted to the plaintiffs' claims. Tesla is appealing the decision to lower court, so this small claims court decision isn't legally binding (yet). It also has no effect on other Tesla owners unless they file their own lawsuits.

I strongly suggest you find a better source for news about Norway than RT.com.

I am going to disagree with CA having excess power to handle things. There are millions of people were 120 miles would leave them stranded.

I guess the few days (so far - god knows what's going to happen to California as this climate change crisis progresses) a year with super high power needs are special.
If you live more than 120 miles away from a fast DC charger, you probably shouldn't buy an EV without maxing out your at-home charging capabilities. On that note, it's a lot more prevalent to install 40+A chargers in the US, and a 40A charger would top up a Tesla overnight.

 

[HRTKD]

I doubt anyone would consider an EV if they had no rebates and the full loss of revenue an EV presents was front loaded on the purchase.

My first full EV car was purchased used. No rebates there. Second EV was purchased new and had rebates. Would I have bought it without the rebates? Probably, if the the price was lower (I paid closer to invoice).

I dont understand the need for pure electric cars, when hybrid like the prius work just as well.

I didn't want another car that required oil changes. For my around town use, EV is perfect. For out of town or towing, I'll use my F-350.

 

[svetz]

...EVs dont pay taxes on their fuel...

I do, see the previous post. In a rush, but I think a number of states have road usage taxes for EVs now.

... The fuel is cheap because the infrastructure required to support the supply of electricity to your house is cheap.

Solar's cheaper if you don't include storage for nighttime use, and solar is how I power mine.

That revenue has to come from somewhere. Go look up...

Times change. I'm sure way back the horse & buggy people were in uproar over those new fangled cars and how exactly were they were going to pay for road usage and other taxes? We figured it then, we'll do it again. Of all the problems we need to solve, and they are legion, I worry least about the fed and states ability for creative taxation.

The whole point of what I was trying to say is that eventually, electricity going into your car is going to need to be metered and you will be paying a lot more for that electricity.

Disagree.

It's not the way they do it here currently. The way the gasoline road tax is calculated is base on an average MPG and the cost needed to pay for roads and all other bits they want to tax to pay for. The way it's done here for EVs is the same, but the EV costs (since they don't come from the sale of gas) are tacked onto the yearly registration fees.

They do it that way because there are few EVs and everyone needs electricity. Not fair to raise the electricity costs for a few EVs and they don't have the tech available to meter all the chargers. It's still fair to grandma because small cars just don't cause road wear (if anything it penalizes people that drive a lot). Really, we're all subsidizing the heavy vehicles on the road, and we do that because we need those trucks on the highway to keep the economy running.

 

[noenegdod]

Disagree.

It's not the way they do it here currently. The way the gasoline road tax is calculated is base on an average MPG and the cost needed to pay for roads and all other bits they want to tax to pay for. The way it's done here for EVs is the same, but the EV costs (since they don't come from the sale of gas) are tacked onto the yearly registration fees.

They do it that way because there are few EVs and everyone needs electricity. Not fair to raise the electricity costs for a few EVs and they don't have the tech available to meter all the chargers. It's still fair to grandma because small cars just don't cause road wear (if anything it penalizes people that drive a lot). Really, we're all subsidizing the heavy vehicles on the road, and we do that because we need those trucks on the highway to keep the economy running.

Averaging is never fair. What is highlighted is not a coherent argument.

I do, see the previous post. In a rush, but I think a number of states have road taxes for EVs now.

That is only one portion of the revenue the government gets from petroleum that is lost on EVs. Government gets a taste on every barrel that comes out of the ground. If/when that dries up, it will need to be replaced by something. You will pay for it in some form or another.

 

[noenegdod]

Times change. I'm sure way back the horse & buggy people were in uproar over those new fangled cars and how exactly were they were going to pay for road usage and other taxes? We figured it then, we'll do it again. Of all the problems we need to solve, and they are legion, I worry least about the fed and states ability for creative taxation.

And finally, this is exactly my point. They did figure it out and they will again. At some point you will end up paying more for the electricity you use in your car.

 

[Hedges]

And finally, this is exactly my point. They did figure it out and they will again. At some point you will end up paying more for the electricity you use in your car.

Betcha they can't put dye on the electrons intended for off-road use!

(but maybe if they use Chinese quantum-entangled electrons ...)

 

[noenegdod]

Betcha they can't put dye on the electrons intended for off-road use!

(but maybe if they use Chinese quantum-entangled electrons ...)

LOL

Can you still buy colored gas in your area? Unless you own a farm, I cant get it where I live.

 

[Hedges]

Diesel.
I think the local Rotten Robbie still has off-road, but I'm not sure. Been years since I bought fuel for tractor. I seem to remember it switched to a scheme where we pay tax and file for a refund?
Now I just fill tank of my pickup once or twice a year, so that is taxed and un-dyed.
DMV gets plenty of money from me due to weight rating. For lighter weight chassis, cutting the top off an SUV would save money.

 

[Tony Scott]

Caveat: I live in Norway.

30 Tesla S85(D) owners took Tesla to small claims court over reduced charging speed. Tesla somehow didn't receive the summons, so they defaulted to the plaintiffs' claims. Tesla is appealing the decision to lower court, so this small claims court decision isn't legally binding (yet). It also has no effect on other Tesla owners unless they file their own lawsuits.

I strongly suggest you find a better source for news about Norway than RT.com.


I guess the few days (so far - god knows what's going to happen to California as this climate change crisis progresses) a year with super high power needs are special.
If you live more than 120 miles away from a fast DC charger, you probably shouldn't buy an EV without maxing out your at-home charging capabilities. On that note, it's a lot more prevalent to install 40+A chargers in the US, and a 40A charger would top up a Tesla overnight.

Was RT News wrong? No. A person can always cross check an article. In the U.S had Tesla defaulted in Court that would be it, no second bite of the apple.

 

[Wibla]

Was RT News wrong? No. A person can always cross check an article.

I checked, and RT News were wrong. Shocking. You're cherry picking sources to support your argument.

"Tesla has been ordered to pay 136,000 kroner – approximately $16,000 – to thousands of its Norwegian customers, following complaints about reduced battery capacities and charging speeds."

This is dead wrong. A) the payout from the lawsuit only covers the owners (low double digits) who participated in the suit, and B) Tesla is appealing to higher court.
Personally I support this lawsuit, because Tesla tried to lie about what they did and why they felt they had to do it. The car I own isn't affected by the change, but it still irks me that they lied.

In the U.S had Tesla defaulted in Court that would be it, no second bite of the apple.

Norway is, thankfully, nothing like the US.