CATL 271Ah cell issues.

[Julianl]

@Michael B Caro - My order of four CATL 310ah cells was recalled by the sender prior to delivery. I'm about to order four cells from another supplier since I'm unable to wait any longer. Can you simply swap me out for cells you have there in Michigan? I'll pay for your shipping costs. You were going to ship me a BMS as part of the order, too.

Does the verbiage that ups used make it implicit that the sender was the initiator of the recall?


Would you be willing to share your tracking number(via pm) or a screenshot of the recall to sender page?

Thanks

 

[DEEP WOODS WARNERS]

This doesn't seem like the same situation though. It's not an employee branching off doing business on the side, it's the owner of a battery business doing side sales, which, depending on how he's doing it, could be illegal (or at least against tax code) in itself.

He was the owner. Sorry if I wasn't clear with that.

 

[b_cummings]

Does the verbiage that ups used make it implicit that the sender was the initiator of the recall?


Would you be willing to share your tracking number(via pm) or a screenshot of the recall to sender page?

Thanks

I don't know that this will help much. And I don't believe the "Sender" was ever identified by UPS, but it is common knowledge that the sender is King Speed.

 

[Julianl]

Yeah it doesn’t add anything to what we already know. Thanks.

 

[stienman]

I don’t believe the statements saying it’s ok to ship Lfp(any condition) in the weight and watts we’re dealing with is accurate (without labels and approval ). The exception of 4 I believe applies to cells installed in equipment.

Can you provide any link or reference which shows that this is true and that these cells can be shipped some other way than as a class 9 hazardous material?
I agree that these cells are shipped all the time, but it seems to be an open secret that every single seller is simply ignoring the rules.

They have to be shipped as Class 9 material, they do require an additional form or contract, and they have to be packaged and labeled according to the rules - and I never suggested otherwise. But this is something that can be handled without trouble by an individual, and there are guides on how to do this, such as https://www.ups.com/assets/resources/media/en_US/pack_ship_batteries.pdf

It's more effort than shipping a sweater, but suggesting it's something only big companies can do, or that good lithium batteries must be treated like damaged lithium batteries and shipped using a hazmat company is wrong. A customer oriented company that wanted their battery back should provide proper packaging, labeling, and shipping so they are the shipper of record, and the only thing the consumer has to do is follow their instructions.

Damaged cells, however, ARE a completely different animal, and do NOT go through the normal shipping channels. UPS, for instance, has this to say: "UPS provides ground service for compliant and fully regulated Damaged, Defective, or Recalled Lithium Batteries (DDR LB) within the contiguous United States when prepared under 49CFR §173.185(f) and tendered under our contracted hazmat service."

The process there is significantly more involved, and uses a separate shipping channel entirely.

josephm15234 is discussing obviously physically damaged and/or leaking cells. Cells that are in good shape are fine for shipping - that's not being contested. Shipping damaged batteries, though, is typically not allowed in consumer shipping services, and often requires additional hazardous fees or special shipping arrangements.

You, as an individual, can fill out the paperwork, package and label the undamaged cell(s) correctly, and then drop them off at your local shipping company. They will travel the same conveyors and trucks every other package uses.

You, as an individual, cannot do the same with damaged cells. UPS and some other companies do have a solution, but it is completely outside their normal process and shipping channel, and requires much more work. You can do it, but it's not simply filling out a form, signing a contract, packaging and labeling, and dropping it off. You start by contacting your sales agent - and if you don't have one, you place a call to UPS and start working through the process.

 

[RobertGreen]

They have to be shipped as Class 9 material, they do require an additional form or contract, and they have to be packaged and labeled according to the rules - and I never suggested otherwise. But this is something that can be handled without trouble by an individual, and there are guides on how to do this, such as https://www.ups.com/assets/resources/media/en_US/pack_ship_batteries.pdf

Thank you for the helpful link. I've looked over that one before in addition to https://hazmatsafety.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/2021-09/Lithium-Battery-Guide.pdf

How do the test report requirements work in this situation? (§ 173.185(a) pointing to UN38.3 testing) Am I incorrect in understanding that these reports must be available (although not required to be presented or included except upon request) for these cells to be shipped? Or is it okay to ship them as long as they don't ask for the test reports?

 

[stienman]

Thank you for the helpful link. I've looked over that one before in addition to https://hazmatsafety.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/2021-09/Lithium-Battery-Guide.pdf

How do the test report requirements work in this situation? (§ 173.185(a) pointing to UN38.3 testing) Am I incorrect in understanding that these reports must be available (although not required to be presented or included except upon request) for these cells to be shipped? Or is it okay to ship them as long as they don't ask for the test reports?

The test report is provided by the manufacturer - although I suppose you could do the testing yourself, or farm it out to Intertek or another certification firm, if you have a lot of cells they can destroy during testing.

It isn't a series of tests for the cells to be shipped, it's a series of tests for the product, and includes:

T1 – Altitude Simulation (Primary and Secondary Cells and Batteries)
T2 – Thermal Test (Primary and Secondary Cells and Batteries)
T3 – Vibration (Primary and Secondary Cells and Batteries)
T4 – Shock (Primary and Secondary Cells and Batteries)
T5 – External Short Circuit (Primary and Secondary Cells and Batteries)
T6 – Impact (Primary and Secondary Cells)
T7 – Overcharge (Secondary Batteries)
T8 – Forced Discharge (Primary and Secondary Cells)

I would be very surprised if a well known company, such as Winston, CATL, Lishen, or EVE hadn't performed these tests for each of their products, and should have the required documentation.

If you are the shipper you should obtain a copy of this to keep on file in case questions are asked. Receiving the question and having to ask the manufacturer is not a great idea.

Note that many more tests are usually performed (such as puncture), the tests above only cover transportation of the cells. If you're going to use them this is information you'd likely want to have anyway.

 

[hyperman]

I know this much. You can take this to a lawyer and you may get into a court room. But the second the judge hears group purchase and learns what a group purchase is you lost. Aspecially when the next subject would be the people purchasing them clearly know and understand the risk of purchasing from a company of like these. I mean this forum alone is full of the proof that buying these cells are very high risk.
Them you add the risk of shipping to it and case closed. They will understand Mike is just a customer to these suppliers and is just as much at risk for being ripped off.
You see there comes a point of accountability. And I see alot of guy trying to play dumb and push the accountability off onto another guy so the feel they can be the clear victim.
All you have to do is search the screen names and you can see the interaction within the forum that says the knew the risk. And understand how the process of group buy works.
I've actually seen this go down. Lots of more money was lost. You see Mike dosnt do this for a living. He sells adds for his income from what I've seen on this forum.
There been alot of people chime in saying Mike has made issues right. Mike has said he's issuing refunds as he can. And it don't seem to get through.
I see alot of manipulation of words and sentences to increase the heat. Alot of shrugging off the knowledge of the risk you took so you think you can play as innocent as possible.
Like your trying to say I didn't know the risk. Well here's some questions.
1. Did you make your purchase from a licensed and insured business?
**No sir I purchased from some guy on a forum because I wanted in on the cheap price of a group buy.
2. Did you ask the group buy lead guy if he had capital saved or insured your shipping?
** no sir. Everyone was doing it so I needed the cells as cheap as possible.
3. Did Mike ship these cells personally?
**No sir he's just the guy that lead the group to make a bulk order so we got cheap prices per cell.
4. How did you hear of the guy doing the group purchase.
** he was on a forum and everyone made these purchases through him with success. So I did to so I could get a cheap price.

Money seems to lead people into risky choices. Either trying to save it or trying to make it. It's amazing the risk people ( including myself) will put themselves into just to save a buck. That becomes our responsibility of pour choice when we do that.
Try giving Mike some time. He will get it fixed and has already made it right by quit a few. But when some of its coming out of his own pocket things get slowed down.

Obviously you know "Jack squat" about anything. For as much as you know is nothing. Somewhere in your misconstrued thinking, one might think that they are "screwed". The fact that you haven't fostered the ability to construct a proper sentence, nor the ability to correctly spell only proves that you are at best lost in a world of abysmal thinking. Is Michael guilty of anything? That's to be determined. What I think (which has no bearing) is that Michael tried to maximize his profit through a supplier that offered cheap and it bit him in the rear. Maybe this is why he won't release the name of the "supplier". I could be wrong about him, but doubtful. You obviously know nothing about law, and I doubt that "you have seen this go down" and would challenge you to your knowledge of business. Drop shipper would be a legal term that you might investigate for "3. Did Mike ship these cells personally?" Personally, I think Michael should be more transparent about this entire ordeal. Transparency is sometimes hard to swallow, but it will digest more smoothly.

 

[RobertGreen]

I would be very surprised if a well known company, such as Winston, CATL, Lishen, or EVE hadn't performed these tests for each of their products, and should have the required documentation.

If you are the shipper you should obtain a copy of this to keep on file in case questions are asked. Receiving the question and having to ask the manufacturer is not a great idea.

Sure, but how do you obtain this documentation when we don't even know who the manufacturer of a lot of these cells was (in the case of used EV packs being sold by third party resellers)? And will Lishen or EVE or CATL have a way to provide them to an individual end user in the USA who doesn't speak Chinese?
edit: Actually, I see that CATL at least does appear to have a regional office in Delaware, so maybe they could provide these reports.

I could be completely misunderstanding how this all works, but to me it appears difficult for an individual to actually comply with these rules in practice.

 

[Morgan360]

I received my undamaged GFB cells weeks ago, so I no longer have a dog in this fight. However, it is clear that transactions made through this forum are indeed part of his business because on his bigbossbattery.com website, he explains the process for ordering cells which is done by starting a conversation on this forum!! Go look at the "about" section of his site and see for yourself.

 

[stienman]

Sure, but how do you obtain this documentation when we don't even know who the manufacturer of a lot of these cells was (in the case of used EV packs being sold by third party resellers)? And will Lishen or EVE or CATL have a way to provide them to an individual end user in the USA who doesn't speak Chinese?

When I requested a datasheet for the cells I was purchasing from a used EV conversion from Michael, he provided one. It didn't say CATL, instead it looks like a rebadged data sheet (which just happens to match the CATL product exactly), but I expect they would have a rebadged version of the testing documentation as well if I requested it.

In other words, you'd talk to your supplier, and they'd get the info.

My cells still have the 2D barcode on them, so I expect I could go directly to CATL if I wanted. As far as language issues, all these big companies have english speaking representatives in their technical, sales, and support teams, and much of the documentation is available in an english version. When it's not, you may want to pay a translation service to translate the document and provide both the original and translated versions if asked.

Lastly, if all else fails, you can find a supplier of the same cell on Alibaba or elsewhere, and ask them to provide the documentation. One of them will have it and be happy to pass it along.

I'll go ahead and request the testing report for the cells I received, and let you know how it goes.

 

[Julianl]

Whether or not this is group buy or a business is not really what is going to make a difference.

@Michael B Caro will make the difference. He can decide to do whatever it takes to resolve or he can do nothing edit: ( I don't think that is what he's up to). I feel he thinks he is doing all that he can but:

I would like to see some movement or more clarity:

A tally of the cells. # returned to shipper, # doa cells that have photo documentation. Could be by supplier or buy end user. If you won’t do this publicly at the very least you need to respond to each member.

It was said the recalled orders would be simple. What’s the resolution?

I asked yesterday about the supplier request to file ups claims on their behalf. Please let people know if this is something you need them to do now. It’s irresponsible to wait 6 days to let people know when you said “I think the supplier wants to get it all handled before giving an answer”[paraphrase].

Please commit to providing this to your members asap.

 

[Michael B Caro]

My apologies. I was in a crappy mood and frustrated and should not have made that post. I apologize for what I said. I do not believe you are a scammer but just stuck in the middle of a shitty situation. That is my bad and I should not have made that post calling you a scammer. I know it's not an excuse but just know I am sorry.

If PayPal is saying I should send them then what should I do? The buyer protection was running out and I hadn't heard from you so I started the claim.

Do I have to wait for you to get the money back from the supplier before I can get any money back? How do I know I'll get it back when you get the money back?

Thank you for having the integrity to acknowledge this. I do appreciate it.

 

[Michael B Caro]

Ok for those saying that it is not possible to file a claim or damage report with UPS, I was finally able to get some clarification.
I am NOT saying it was the fault of UPS, or that doing this will necessarily do any good, but the supplier has requested it and so I don't see any downside to doing it really.

I was told that for international shipments we should call 866-782-7892.
They will take a damage report.
They will send out someone to "investigate".
They will determine if UPS bears any responsibility.
If they determine that UPS bears responsibility they will generate a claim number.
If they determine that UPS does not bear responsibility they will report their findings back to the shipper.

They also said that anyone that did not sign for the delivery of these boxes, after the are inspected by UPS, can drop them off at the nearest UPS location.......I would not do that myself until we get more clarification of what is going to transpire.

Now, don't put me on blast if that is not what UPS ends up doing, but that is what they person I talked to in international shipping said to do.

I will report to the supplier tonight that their request for UPS claim numbers is not going to be possible until after UPS does their thing.

 

[Michael B Caro]

I have contacted the Alibaba department that offered the inspection services that are available now to high volume buyers to have goods inspected prior to the supplier shipping them and asked them to put me in touch with someone at Alibaba that can/will step in and pressure the supplier to get off their asses and start doing something to resolve the situation.

Those that want me to put out here who the supplier is.....I hesitate to do that as doing so would remove one of the pressure points I have available to get them to do the right thing. They do NOT want their name out there and if I put it out prior to any resolution it just weakens our position. At least that is my opinion.

To those that think I am going to "vanish" or any other suck bunk, that is NOT going to happen.
To those that may think I am not as worried about this as they are, that is stupid. There have been enough guys get refunds that should NOT have been able to that, if this is not resolved satisfactorily, I will lose more money than any 10 of you combined. A LOT more. So I am fully invested in getting them to do what they need to....and I would be even if I did not have as much money at risk as I do.

This and the Lishen crap is about all I think about and it keeps me up at night, most of the night, every night. I do not say that in order get get sympathy, just stating a fact.

I understand everyone's frustrations, but this shit weighs more heavily on me than anyone else, by far.

Also, this may NOT be all the suppliers fault. I believe MOST of it is, but perhaps not all of it.
I received two pallets of CATL 302ah cells yesterday and one of the pallets was broken....luckily none of those cells were damaged. However, I also received the box in the following pictures delivered by FedEx when no one was around. It was NOT from this same supplier. The box had the shipping information hand written on it, and so I believe that the original box was destroyed and FedEx re-boxed them and then delivered them.

I should have added in the previous post about UPS that they indicated that anyone that die not sign for their boxes technically did not accept them and so did not actually indicate that they were ok with accepting them at all. Another reason that they can be dropped off at the nearest UPS location according to the person I talked to at UPS.

 

[Kwttom]

I have contacted the Alibaba department that offered the inspection services that are available now to high volume buyers to have goods inspected prior to the supplier shipping them and asked them to put me in touch with someone at Alibaba that can/will step in and pressure the supplier to get off their asses and start doing something to resolve the situation.

Those that want me to put out here who the supplier is.....I hesitate to do that as doing so would remove one of the pressure points I have available to get them to do the right thing. They do NOT want their name out there and if I put it out prior to any resolution it just weakens our position. At least that is my opinion.

To those that think I am going to "vanish" or any other suck bunk, that is NOT going to happen.
To those that may think I am not as worried about this as they are, that is stupid. There have been enough guys get refunds that should NOT have been able to that, if this is not resolved satisfactorily, I will lose more money than any 10 of you combined. A LOT more. So I am fully invested in getting them to do what they need to....and I would be even if I did not have as much money at risk as I do.

This and the Lishen crap is about all I think about and it keeps me up at night, most of the night, every night. I do not say that in order get get sympathy, just stating a fact.

I understand everyone's frustrations, but this shit weighs more heavily on me than anyone else, by far.

Also, this may NOT be all the suppliers fault. I believe MOST of it is, but perhaps not all of it.
I received two pallets of CATL 302ah cells yesterday and one of the pallets was broken....luckily none of those cells were damaged. However, I also received the box in the following pictures delivered by FedEx when no one was around. It was NOT from this same supplier. The box had the shipping information hand written on it, and so I believe that the original box was destroyed and FedEx re-boxed them and then delivered them.

I should have added in the previous post about UPS that they indicated that anyone that die not sign for their boxes technically did not accept them and so did not actually indicate that they were ok with accepting them at all. Another reason that they can be dropped off at the nearest UPS location according to the person I talked to at UPS.

Please address those of us that had cells that were recalled by the shipper, I for one have received nothing from my order and I have had to move off grid. The cells I ordered were to heat my home via mini split, I have found a new supplier but have no idea from your posts and no response via message from you what the solution is (I.E.) refund preferably asap. There should be no question that I am due either cells in extremely short order or my money back.

09/09/2021 10:56 A.M.	Delivered Returned to shipper CHINO, CA, US
09/09/2021 8:58 A.M.	Out for Delivery Out For Delivery Today Ontario, CA, United States
09/09/2021 6:28 A.M.	Processing at UPS Facility Ontario, CA, United States
09/08/2021 12:19 P.M.	Arrived at Facility Ontario, CA, United States
09/08/2021 2:18 A.M.	Departed from Facility Salt Lake City, UT, United States
09/07/2021 2:46 P.M.	Arrived at Facility Salt Lake City, UT, United States
09/07/2021 4:36 A.M.	Departed from Facility Missoula, MT, United States
09/04/2021 3:23 A.M.	Arrived at Facility Missoula, MT, United States
09/03/2021 9:36 P.M.	Departed from Facility Spokane, WA, United States
09/03/2021 1:47 P.M.	Export Scan Spokane, WA, United States
09/03/2021 8:42 A.M.	Return to Sender Confirmed We're returning this package to the sender. Spokane, WA, United States
09/03/2021 8:34 A.M.	Processing at UPS Facility Spokane, WA, United States
09/03/2021 6:41 A.M.	Arrived at Facility Spokane, WA, United States
09/03/2021 3:31 A.M.	Departed from Facility Hermiston, OR, United States
09/03/2021 2:10 A.M.	Arrived at Facility Hermiston, OR, United States
09/02/2021 11:10 P.M.	Departed from Facility Portland, OR, United States
09/02/2021 12:31 A.M.	Arrived at Facility Portland, OR, United States
09/01/2021 10:00 A.M.	A late UPS trailer arrival has caused a delay. We're adjusting plans to deliver your package as quickly as possible.
08/31/2021 9:30 P.M.	We've received a request from the sender to return the package.
08/30/2021 8:26 P.M.	Departed from Facility La Mirada, CA, United States
08/30/2021 1:31 P.M.	Shipped Origin Scan La Mirada, CA, United States
07/08/2021 5:02 A.M.	Label Created Shipper created a label, UPS has not received the package yet. United States

 

[Michael B Caro]

Please address those of us that had cells that were recalled by the shipper, I for one have received nothing from my order and I have had to move off grid. The cells I ordered were to heat my home via mini split, I have found a new supplier but have no idea from your posts and no response via message from you what the solution is (I.E.) refund preferably asap. There should be no question that I am due either cells in extremely short order or my money back.

09/09/2021 10:56 A.M.	Delivered Returned to shipper CHINO, CA, US
09/09/2021 8:58 A.M.	Out for Delivery Out For Delivery Today Ontario, CA, United States
09/09/2021 6:28 A.M.	Processing at UPS Facility Ontario, CA, United States
09/08/2021 12:19 P.M.	Arrived at Facility Ontario, CA, United States
09/08/2021 2:18 A.M.	Departed from Facility Salt Lake City, UT, United States
09/07/2021 2:46 P.M.	Arrived at Facility Salt Lake City, UT, United States
09/07/2021 4:36 A.M.	Departed from Facility Missoula, MT, United States
09/04/2021 3:23 A.M.	Arrived at Facility Missoula, MT, United States
09/03/2021 9:36 P.M.	Departed from Facility Spokane, WA, United States
09/03/2021 1:47 P.M.	Export Scan Spokane, WA, United States
09/03/2021 8:42 A.M.	Return to Sender Confirmed We're returning this package to the sender. Spokane, WA, United States
09/03/2021 8:34 A.M.	Processing at UPS Facility Spokane, WA, United States
09/03/2021 6:41 A.M.	Arrived at Facility Spokane, WA, United States
09/03/2021 3:31 A.M.	Departed from Facility Hermiston, OR, United States
09/03/2021 2:10 A.M.	Arrived at Facility Hermiston, OR, United States
09/02/2021 11:10 P.M.	Departed from Facility Portland, OR, United States
09/02/2021 12:31 A.M.	Arrived at Facility Portland, OR, United States
09/01/2021 10:00 A.M.	A late UPS trailer arrival has caused a delay. We're adjusting plans to deliver your package as quickly as possible.
08/31/2021 9:30 P.M.	We've received a request from the sender to return the package.
08/30/2021 8:26 P.M.	Departed from Facility La Mirada, CA, United States
08/30/2021 1:31 P.M.	Shipped Origin Scan La Mirada, CA, United States
07/08/2021 5:02 A.M.	Label Created Shipper created a label, UPS has not received the package yet. United States

I have berated them repeatedly over the cells never delivered and so far it has not moved them to do a damn thing. They seem to feel like the entire situation needs to be resolved before they address any portion of it. That is one of the things I highlighted in my communication with Alibaba. There is zero reason for there to be any question about cells not delivered.....but if they are trying to stick the shipping forwarder and UPS with part of the loss they are not going to see it that way. Hopefully Alibaba can exert more pressure than I can.

 

[Kwttom]

I have berated them repeatedly over the cells never delivered and so far it has not moved them to do a damn thing. They seem to feel like the entire situation needs to be resolved before they address any portion of it. That is one of the things I highlighted in my communication with Alibaba. There is zero reason for there to be any question about cells not delivered.....but if they are trying to stick the shipping forwarder and UPS with part of the loss they are not going to see it that way. Hopefully Alibaba can exert more pressure than

This is not ok man I'm $7,229.25 in the hole for something I have not received, I have kids that are in the cold from this. Make it happen.

 

[Michael B Caro]

This is not ok man I'm $7,229.25 in the hole for something I have not received, I have kids that are in the cold from this. Make it happen.

I am in the hole a lot more money than that after guys managed to get refunds that should not have.

Where are you located again?

 

[Kwttom]

Spokane, Wa and it's getting cold up here