CATL 271Ah cell issues.

Texas-Mark

Solar Addict
If there isn't enough money on the business' end to immediately issue all refunds, what does PayPal do?

PayPal will pay out of their pocket and then try to recover the money from the linked account if there are no direct funds.

I had a PayPal dispute (and refund) over an e-bay scammer who scammed about 400 people (amounting to about $20K total). The scammer had marked things as shipped (to delay disputes) and nobody got anything. I'm sure the money was long gone before PayPal got the first dispute. Point being, Paypal will pay even if there are no funds.
 
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DEEP WOODS WARNERS

Solar Enthusiast
You must have went to law school. Hahaha Thanks for the laugh
You will see. Like I said iv seen this go down before. The judges generally don't side with entitlement or the want to pass accountability. It's that simple.
As far as I have seen, the only refunds given are for those cells that were never shipped, and of course those people are due refunds. But not all of those folks have been getting a refunds because he has accused those who filed a legitimate dispute for the damaged cells, of stealing their money.

Whether he was operating as a business or not, he accepted payment via PayPal goods and services, and now has to face the consequences of that.
Iv seen refunds. For what cells I'm not sure. The threads are all starting to blur together. The same guys on every thread.
I do understand the fear though. I'd be and was worried myself. But he made it right. I just had to be patient. And yes it wasn't easy but I have pretty good self control.
If there isn't enough money on the business' end to immediately issue all refunds, what does PayPal do?
That's a good question. I'm kinda wondering. In the car forums the guy actually closed his accounts connected to PayPal. And no one ever said how PayPal responded to that. Just that they used a lawyer for the group and lost. Later the forum stopped all group buys to end the drama. This guy was scamming. Selling lsa superchargers.
 

A.Justice

Swears he didn't start that fire.
You will see. Like I said iv seen this go down before. The judges generally don't side with entitlement or the want to pass accountability. It's that simple.
Check out the legal definition of "wire fraud", they made the definition loose on purpose so they could smoke anybody they feel like.

Mike and his supplier are absolutely 100% guilty of wire fraud, even if it wasn't fully intentional. The posts about people "stealing" make him complicit by definition.

You might be correct in the sense that nobody could win a civil suit against him, but depending on how he handles this he could open the door to criminal charges. Notice how his daughter "accidentally" deleted all of her posts and disappeared, I think she realized what was going on and dipped out before her name was brought into it.
 

RobertGreen

Solar Addict
I know this much. You can take this to a lawyer and you may get into a court room. But the second the judge hears group purchase and learns what a group purchase is you lost. Aspecially when the next subject would be the people purchasing them clearly know and understand the risk of purchasing from a company of like these. I mean this forum alone is full of the proof that buying these cells are very high risk.
Them you add the risk of shipping to it and case closed. They will understand Mike is just a customer to these suppliers and is just as much at risk for being ripped off.
You see there comes a point of accountability. And I see alot of guy trying to play dumb and push the accountability off onto another guy so the feel they can be the clear victim.
All you have to do is search the screen names and you can see the interaction within the forum that says the knew the risk. And understand how the process of group buy works.
I've actually seen this go down. Lots of more money was lost. You see Mike dosnt do this for a living. He sells adds for his income from what I've seen on this forum.
There been alot of people chime in saying Mike has made issues right. Mike has said he's issuing refunds as he can. And it don't seem to get through.
I see alot of manipulation of words and sentences to increase the heat. Alot of shrugging off the knowledge of the risk you took so you think you can play as innocent as possible.
Like your trying to say I didn't know the risk. Well here's some questions.
1. Did you make your purchase from a licensed and insured business?
**No sir I purchased from some guy on a forum because I wanted in on the cheap price of a group buy.
2. Did you ask the group buy lead guy if he had capital saved or insured your shipping?
** no sir. Everyone was doing it so I needed the cells as cheap as possible.
3. Did Mike ship these cells personally?
**No sir he's just the guy that lead the group to make a bulk order so we got cheap prices per cell.
4. How did you hear of the guy doing the group purchase.
** he was on a forum and everyone made these purchases through him with success. So I did to so I could get a cheap price.

Money seems to lead people into risky choices. Either trying to save it or trying to make it. It's amazing the risk people ( including myself) will put themselves into just to save a buck. That becomes our responsibility of pour choice when we do that.
Try giving Mike some time. He will get it fixed and has already made it right by quit a few. But when some of its coming out of his own pocket things get slowed down.
Respectfully, I disagree entirely with what you're saying. This wasn't a group buy. There was an individual selling cells which he had dispatched from suppliers in China. Suggesting that he has no responsibility at all in this deal because he didn't personally pack the cells is ridiculous.

He clearly and specifically in writing assured everyone that there was 100% no way that they were going to get screwed in the case of a mishap (I'm specifically referring to his post on May 18, and the lishen orders). You can read that in Michaels own words as quoted in the posts today.
We can play wordgames to turn this whole situation around any way we want.

You keep using the "group buy" phrase as if to discount that this was a for profit business transaction on his end. This isn't some friends just cooperating and pitching in for a better price. He has a specific burden here: to provide that which he agreed and advertised.

Michael said specifically and repeatedly that he would happily and quickly refund money to anyone who is tired of waiting for their Lishen orders. "That money is safe." That hasn't happened. Take a quick look at the posts on his profile/wall and you can see this.
You can make excuses for him if you want, but it doesn't change the fact; he broke his word, and people are not getting out of the bargain what he agreed to provide.
 
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DEEP WOODS WARNERS

Solar Enthusiast
Respectfully, I disagree entirely with what you're saying. This wasn't a group buy. There was an individual selling cells which he had dispatched from suppliers in China. He clearly and specifically in writing assured everyone that there was 100% no way that they were going to get screwed in the case of a mishap. You can read that in Michaels own words as quoted in the posts today.
We can play wordgames to turn this whole situation around any way we want.

You keep using the "group buy" phrase as if to discount that this was a for profit business transaction on his end. This isn't some friends just cooperating and pitching in for a better price. He has a specific burden here: to provide that which he agreed and advertised.

Michael said specifically and repeatedly that he would happily and quickly refund money to anyone who is tired of waiting for their Lishen orders. "That money is safe." That hasn't happened. Take a quick look at the posts on his profile/wall and you can see this.
You can make excuses for him if you want, but it doesn't change the fact; he broke his word, and people are not getting out of the bargain what he agreed to provide.
You can disagree. But that don't mean your right. It's funny you reply with the same phrases I spoke. Playing word games. Lol.
All the threads I've seen say group buy. And people responded to them.
Placed orders. So yes its a group buy. Sorry those words don't work out for you.
As for defend him I'd say more so using proper moral values and pushing people to give him a chance to make it right. He's done so with many this being the 1st issue. But that don't stop the immoral wolves from barking and biting 1st.
I don't know Mike. I speaking from my experiences with him and from others iv seen.
Could things go south? Sure. But there more evidence that says he makes thing right than scams people till this issue pops up.
Honestly if I was Will P. i would put a stop to group buys. For this exact reason. Group buys always end up in a mess like this.
 

Bubba1

Solar Addict
This isn't a group buy. This is a business for profit. Michael made a profit on. The cells in question, that profit needs to be returned. He didn't earn it.
You can disagree. But that don't mean your right. It's funny you reply with the same phrases I spoke. Playing word games. Lol.
All the threads I've seen say group buy. And people responded to them.
Placed orders. So yes its a group buy. Sorry those words don't work out for you.
As for defend him I'd say more so using proper moral values and pushing people to give him a chance to make it right. He's done so with many this being the 1st issue. But that don't stop the immoral wolves from barking and biting 1st.
I don't know Mike. I speaking from my experiences with him and from others iv seen.
Could things go south? Sure. But there more evidence that says he makes thing right than scams people till this issue pops up.
Honestly if I was Will P. i would put a stop to group buys. For this exact reason. Group buys always end up in a mess like this.
 

DEEP WOODS WARNERS

Solar Enthusiast
This isn't a group buy. This is a business for profit. Michael made a profit on. The cells in question, that profit needs to be returned. He didn't earn it.
One can call it whatever they want, but it was still a business transaction for profit.
Honestly I can't say if it was profit or not. I guess truthfully only Mike knows that. I just know he made some connections and offered a few group buys. I wish you all the best of luck and God bless.
 

DEEP WOODS WARNERS

Solar Enthusiast
It's insulting and rude to suggest that people who sent thousands of dollars to this guy in placing an order with him are "immoral wolves" just for asking for the refunds he has promised.
Asking for refund is cool. Running the man down because he hasn't sent you refund the second everyone requested is another.
The man has responded multiple times stating his progress. Yet you keep attacking.
The man is working as well I'm gathering from his posts. And considering the supplier has your money. I bet you hes double timing his job to process refunds.
Maybe I'm wrong. But with how I see him working with people one at a time I'm pretty sure I'm right.
I do tend to hope to see the good in people before I do the bad. That I will admit. But he could just forget everyone. But I'm seeing him in Facebook groups as well as here updating at least ounce a week now.
 

DEEP WOODS WARNERS

Solar Enthusiast
He has a battery sales and distribution website, and absolutely runs this like a business.

That's a separate entity. Your sales was not processed through that business, or was it. If so you may have that leg to stand on.
As long as your receipt has that letter head. Business law is very finicky. Alot stands on the customer's unfortunately. For instance. A guy were I had my auto shop at. Started working out of his garage. He took on some customer's with longer more custom builds.
He then mid way got a commercial location and got all his licensing. When he went belly up and closed everything a customer got his car and wanted money returned for the work he didn't do.
Well the job started before he went legit. Before the business was licensed. And in the end he only had to pay like 500 of 12k because the customer is do research and be sure there dealing with a licensed repair facility.
Wrong if you ask me. But that's how michigan handled it. L.a.r.a. couldn't even help him out.
Business law gets dirty and down right wrong in some states.
Also just because he has a business dosnt mean that this was done through his business. I just learn that the hard way. I purchased a 6.0l diesel engine and got screwed over on 1700. Long story short he is getting away with it.
 

Julianl

Not a new member?
Back on topic:

@Michael B Caro you mentioned you would check with UPS about filing claims. You said you would come back after talking to UPS.

So do you want folks to file claims? What of FedEx damages.
 

A.Justice

Swears he didn't start that fire.
That's a separate entity. Your sales was not processed through that business, or was it. If so you may have that leg to stand on.
As long as your receipt has that letter head. Business law is very finicky. Alot stands on the customer's unfortunately. For instance. A guy were I had my auto shop at. Started working out of his garage. He took on some customer's with longer more custom builds.
He then mid way got a commercial location and got all his licensing. When he went belly up and closed everything a customer got his car and wanted money returned for the work he didn't do.
Well the job started before he went legit. Before the business was licensed. And in the end he only had to pay like 500 of 12k because the customer is do research and be sure there dealing with a licensed repair facility.
Wrong if you ask me. But that's how michigan handled it. L.a.r.a. couldn't even help him out.
Business law gets dirty and down right wrong in some states.
Also just because he has a business dosnt mean that this was done through his business. I just learn that the hard way. I purchased a 6.0l diesel engine and got screwed over on 1700. Long story short he is getting away with it.
This doesn't seem like the same situation though. It's not an employee branching off doing business on the side, it's the owner of a battery business doing side sales, which, depending on how he's doing it, could be illegal (or at least against tax code) in itself.
 

Julianl

Not a new member?
@Michael B Caro - My order of four CATL 310ah cells was recalled by the sender prior to delivery. I'm about to order four cells from another supplier since I'm unable to wait any longer. Can you simply swap me out for cells you have there in Michigan? I'll pay for your shipping costs. You were going to ship me a BMS as part of the order, too.
Does the verbiage that ups used make it implicit that the sender was the initiator of the recall?


Would you be willing to share your tracking number(via pm) or a screenshot of the recall to sender page?

Thanks
 

DEEP WOODS WARNERS

Solar Enthusiast
This doesn't seem like the same situation though. It's not an employee branching off doing business on the side, it's the owner of a battery business doing side sales, which, depending on how he's doing it, could be illegal (or at least against tax code) in itself.
He was the owner. Sorry if I wasn't clear with that.
 

b_cummings

Solar Enthusiast
Does the verbiage that ups used make it implicit that the sender was the initiator of the recall?


Would you be willing to share your tracking number(via pm) or a screenshot of the recall to sender page?

Thanks

I don't know that this will help much. And I don't believe the "Sender" was ever identified by UPS, but it is common knowledge that the sender is King Speed.
 

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