CATL purchases from Michael B Caro

Gazoo

Dumb Dumb
First, let me start by saying the intention of this post is not to implicates or absolve Michael of any wrongdoing.
I have no doubt your intentions are to implicate Michael. Be honest. How about I start a thread absolving him. I have no intention of doing that but it's clear what your intentions could lead to.
Michael can then respond with a number of cells that he has reported as damaged and see if it matches the quantity I have gathered.
That's BS. No doubt Michael knows who supplied these cells and therefore he knows exactly who is receiving damaged cells from this supplier. Be honest.

I, unfortunately, look forward to putting this list together in order to seek a resolution.
You posted this before Michael resurfaced. So how did you intend to seek a resolution? Be honest.
 

Mightymach

Solar Enthusiast
I have no doubt your intentions are to implicate Michael. Be honest. How about I start a thread absolving him. I have no intention of doing that but it's clear what your intentions could lead to.

That's BS. No doubt Michael knows who supplied these cells and therefore he knows exactly who is receiving damaged cells from this supplier. Be honest.


You posted this before Michael resurfaced. So how did you intend to seek a resolution? Be honest.
Gazoo-
It really doesn't matter what I say as you appear to be predetermined to believe whatever it is you want to believe.

But, let's try to address these one last time.

My intentions are:
1. Get truthful answers.
2. Get an open line of communication from Michael.
3. Get a refund for myself, and in turn, everyone else.
4. Organize and create a "union" if you will. Nobody here knows how large of an issue this is. We've seen people (myself included) post pictures and videos of their cells, but guess what...there are a lot.more people that have not posted pictures of their cells. I only know this because I have been PMd.
5. As an organized group, we have powern and more pptions--just as a random forum member obtains buying power organizing a group buy. Only, a member putting on a group buy is taking a fee and making profits and I am doing this for no payment.
6. You're right, Michael does know who's receiving damaged cells. But Michael has hardly been forthcoming. As pointed out, he said he would contact all those that bought cells from him. Well, I'm not the only one that didn't get a message.


You can start a thread absolving michael if you would like. Hell, I'll do it once he's absolved himself. My intentions are simple and stated numerous times. But, let me ask you this: how.long do you suppose everyone let's this go until it becomes an issue? 3 months? 6 months? The oldest order I know about is Februsqry 1. In 5 months, we're at a year. And yet, we're still sending out damaged cells. Moreover, to my knowledge, nobody has posted saying their CATL cells were received packaged appropriately, as described, and undamaged. Not one!

Now, why don't you be honest. When did you place your order? Did you post pics of your cells? Why would you even joke around about absolving Michael? How do you know it's "300+ cells according to michael?" Have you spoke to Michael about this? Where is this information at publicly? I never receivednit and I'm an affected party. Rather, as discussed, I've been told one story after another, after another....just as everyone else has.

I'll stand by with what I said from the get go. If you want to be organized, send me your information. If you don't, that's fine too. I find it better to be prepared and not need it than to not be prepared and need it.

Once more, Michael, welcome back and please keep an open line of communication with all of us.
 

Gazoo

Dumb Dumb
Now, why don't you be honest. When did you place your order? Did you post pics of your cells? Why would you even joke around about absolving Michael? How do you know it's "300+ cells according to michael?" Have you spoke to Michael about this? Where is this information at publicly? I never receivednit and I'm an affected party. Rather, as discussed, I've been told one story after another, after another....just as everyone else has.
The cells I ordered from Michael were not in this group. I received them almost a year ago.

About absolving Michael, I am not joking. If this goes to court who is going to be blamed? Michael or the supplier? A good attorney in Michael's defense might be able to absolve him since there was no intent on Michael's part to supply damaged cells. My point is your intentions could very well back fire. But I digress...I am not an attorney so I don't know what if any resolution the court would award.

Michael posted the number of cells on the last page of the other thread. Perhaps you could run over there and take a look?

But, let me ask you this: how.long do you suppose everyone let's this go until it becomes an issue? 3 months? 6 months? The oldest order I know about is Februsqry 1. In 5 months, we're at a year. And yet, we're still sending out damaged cells. Moreover, to my knowledge, nobody has posted saying their CATL cells were received packaged appropriately, as described, and undamaged. Not one!
I never go by when orders were placed, rather by when orders were received. I can't peg an exact date before initiating action. That's up to you. Regarding orders placed in Feb, is that for the Lishen cells? Those people asking for refunds for those orders should be refunded fairly soon.

But...what do you mean by we're still sending out damaged cells? It's my understanding the supplier has recalled cells that have not been received.

I'll stand by with what I said from the get go. If you want to be organized, send me your information. If you don't, that's fine too. I find it better to be prepared and not need it than to not be prepared and need it.
If I was part of this group in this group buy I would not be sending you anything at this point in time. I would wait to see what kind of resolution Michael offers. If there is a failure on Michael's part to make everyone whole to their satisfaction then that's a different story. But adding more logs to the fire now isn't helping. I am sure Michael is devastated as any one of us would be. Do you think he intended for all these cells to arrive damaged, and with scratched off QR codes and what not?

Once more, Michael, welcome back and please keep an open line of communication with all of us.
That much we can agree on. Running a one man show as Michael has been doing is not good. I recommended to him a long time ago he appoint or hire another person who could fill in his shoes in the event something happened to him. When he failed to do that I backed off recommending his group buy. I understand he was having some personal problems but there is no excuse for the lack of communication on his part.

I honestly hope Michael get's this resolved for you and everyone else involved. Seeing what's happened had caused me to be sad, angry and a bunch of other depressing feelings. I have considered Michael a friend but business is business. And I have made it clear... do what you gotta do if he doesn't make this right.
 

stienman

Solar Addict
There is ample time to file a lawsuit.

That's an understatement! The statute of limitation for fraud and most similar commerce crimes is 7 years. 6 months is a drop in the bucket.

If anyone should be starting anything it should be the people involved.

The OP is affected, search his posting history to find his pictures.

This sounds like an ambulance chaser lawyer techniques to me.

It is. If the OP can coordinate a lawsuit or settlement, they have significant monetary interest and may increase the settlement for themselves at the expense of others who sign on. It's not big enough for class action, and the total amount isn't a lot for a lawyer, but the op can use it - or the threat of it (since this is clearly an open threat) - to get leverage and a possibly better outcome.
 

Mightymach

Solar Enthusiast
That's an understatement! The statute of limitation for fraud and most similar commerce crimes is 7 years. 6 months is a drop in the bucket.



The OP is affected, search his posting history to find his pictures.



It is. If the OP can coordinate a lawsuit or settlement, they have significant monetary interest and may increase the settlement for themselves at the expense of others who sign on. It's not big enough for class action, and the total amount isn't a lot for a lawyer, but the op can use it - or the threat of it (since this is clearly an open threat) - to get leverage and a possibly better outcome.

I've got 4 cells involved...and if there's only 300 cells, we'll then, we can all figure out how much money is involved. If you think I'm trying to get anything more than my money back, you're wrong. However, I would gladly relinquish the compiling of any list to you if you would like. Of course, I won't send you the list of names I have compiled, but I can email those on my list telling them you are now running the show.

Let me know your thoughts.

Regards,
 

DerpsyDoodler

Photon Sorcerer
If I was part of this group in this group buy I would not be sending you anything at this point in time. I would wait to see what kind of resolution Michael offers. If there is a failure on Michael's part to make everyone whole to their satisfaction then that's a different story. But adding more logs to the fire now isn't helping. I am sure Michael is devastated as any one of us would be. Do you think he intended for all these cells to arrive damaged, and with scratched off QR codes and what not?
I don't think he intended that.

Something I would like cleared up for my own curiosity is, I see a lot of talk about "group buy", but it was my understanding it was no longer a group buy quite some time ago. Yet, while those signals seemed to be getting mixed, people kept coming in, presuming a group buy, not being informed otherwise, and business continued to be conducted under the "group buy" thread. I reported the thread for it, once.

The whole point of group buy is that it enables buying power that everyone gets to take advantage of, as well as increases buyer confidence.

I imagine Michael has himself in a bit of a pickle, right now. Hopefully he can clear it up and start conducting business in a more transparent way.
 

mikejoconnor

New Member
Here's the deal. If you want perfect, you can order from state side suppliers, who have already received, inspected, and rejected any shipping damage, and build that into the cost of the rejected cells into their final price. Then request that your order has shipping insurance to ensure you are absolved of any liability for shipping damage.

Instead you rolled the dice on a great deal directly from the manufacturer. You mitigated the risk of counterfeit product by working with a 3rd party (Michael), but you still made the decision to roll the dice on getting undamaged product shipped to you from China. If you received a counterfeit product, you would have a bone to pick with Michael, but unless you asked for shipping insurance, the damage in transit is part of the cost of doing business. It's also why cells sourced state side cost more.
 

Knrinor

New Member
Tagging: @Michael B Caro


First, let me start by saying the intention of this post is not to implicates or absolve Michael of any wrongdoing.

This post is only intended to gather a list of Michael's customers that have purchased CATL cells from him that arrived damaged.

Please, do not post in this forum your personal information or order information as I would like to keep all of this information confidential as we gather our list. Rather, please send me a PM with your information, order information, payment method, and any photos you have. I will compile a spreadsheet with all of our information, battery counts, tracking numbers, and expenses. Additionally, I would prefer to have a 2 part identification of orders to ensure this data does not become sabotaged with fake orders from any other, non-affected party.

Michael can then respond with a number of cells that he has reported as damaged and see if it matches the quantity I have gathered.

This post is not intended to take the place of the other thread, but rather as an announcement to begin organizing all parties that have been wronged.

I know I'm asking for a lot of trust in a situation where all trust is seemingly lost, but we need to be united in this as one voice of 300 (or however many there are of us) rather than 300 voices of one.

I, unfortunately, look forward to putting this list together in order to seek a resolution.
I sent over $7200 to him. More disappointed in myself for trusting. This is the first time I've ever been burned by an off grid person. Spoke with him on the phone and from what I could gather seemed fine. However he has made me feel that I have been scammed. He has not responded to multiple POSTS as well as phone calls. I am very interested a lawsuit or whatever it takes to make everyone monetarily right. Very disappointed in him. @willprose.
 

Gazoo

Dumb Dumb
I sent over $7200 to him. More disappointed in myself for trusting. This is the first time I've ever been burned by an off grid person. Spoke with him on the phone and from what I could gather seemed fine. However he has made me feel that I have been scammed. He has not responded to multiple POSTS as well as phone calls. I am very interested a lawsuit or whatever it takes to make everyone monetarily right. Very disappointed in him. @willprose.
Why are you posting here in this thread? Have you posted in his group buy thread or in the other thread discussing damaged cells received? No you have not because this is your first post. Posting in one of the other threads in a non threatening manner might get his attention.

Seems to me he is trying to do right for every one and I hope he follows through. Tagging Will Prowse isn't going to do you or anyone else any good as Will has no interest in this matter one way or the other. Besides you didn't properly tag @Will Prowse.
 

RobertGreen

Solar Addict
I want to add something else. If anyone initiates any kind of action prematurely, be it PatPal or legal or otherwise, this boat could be rocked and sink to the bottom of the ocean. I would tread very carefully with any ideas of taking any kind of recourse at this point in time. Give Michael a chance to make things right. That's the best way to go and if it doesn't work out do whatever you as buyers think is appropriate.
I have to disagree on this point, at least in regard to those still waiting on lishen cells. In my case I never switched from the Lishen cells that I paid for in March to one of the alternatives.
As the 180 day window for purchase protection was nearing it's end, and as there was no timeframe to expect Lishen cells to be back in stock or to ship, I started a PayPal refund claim on August 30.

Michael didn't respond to my PMs or emails about a refund request, and I didn't want to pass the window from PayPal. He has stated that he still has all the funds from the unshipped Lishen orders. And that he would be more than happy to provide a refund. But instead I had to wait the full two week period for the PayPal team to step in and settle it after he declined to respond to their case. I have now received a full refund.

There's another member here who has messaged me about the process after they received damaged CATL replacement cells and they began the PayPal dispute so as to not miss the protection window. Apparently Michael is offering them a refund if they ship their boxes of damaged cells to him at their own expense.

I understand that the concept is that by pushing these disputes, Michael may go underwater as he hasn't yet received compensation from the supplier. However, this is what PayPal and credit card buyer protection is for....

Recommending that people forego the only mechanism that they may have to try to recover their funds is a gamble that was not agreeable to me.

Asking people to relinquish the ability to recover their funds by allowing the protection timeframe to expire just leaves them much more likely to never recover anything.
 

Gazoo

Dumb Dumb
Asking people to relinquish the ability to recover their funds by allowing the protection timeframe to expire just leaves them much more likely to never recover anything.
In your case I don't blame you and I would have done the same thing. The lack of communication from Michael is not acceptable. If there is no other recourse other than to file a dispute and time is running out then I recommend doing so. I was thinking of the damaged shipments when I made my comment. I was suggesting to give Michael some more time to get a resolution from the supplier. I also made it clear if Michael doesn't come through then do whatever one has to do to get a resolution. I don't want to see anyone lose any money whether it be refunds for the Lishen cells or refunds for the damaged cells, or anything else for that matter. If time is running out in either case then file a dispute.

There's another member here who has messaged me about the process after they received damaged CATL replacement cells and they began the PayPal dispute so as to not miss the protection window. Apparently Michael is offering them a refund if they ship their boxes of damaged cells to him at their own expense.
Damaged replacement cells? If they are that bad I would be surprised if Michael wants them. Did you see them?

I understand that the concept is that by pushing these disputes, Michael may go underwater as he hasn't yet received compensation from the supplier. However, this is what PayPal and credit card buyer protection is for....
I am hopeful the supplier comes through and this mess gets resolved. And am still suggesting to allow Michael more time. I don't know how long it has been from the time people paid for the cells until the time to file a dispute runs out. But it would seem to me there is still at least a couple of months left.
 

podilamaya

Solar Enthusiast
There's another member here who has messaged me about the process after they received damaged CATL replacement cells and they began the PayPal dispute so as to not miss the protection window. Apparently Michael is offering them a refund if they ship their boxes of damaged cells to him at their own expense.

That is going to cost heaps to send even undamaged cells back to Michael with proper packing and declare them as LiFePO4 cells. In my case that would be cost more than the original purchased price (Australia to the USA).

remember these calls came with bad packaging and without declaring them as LiFePO4. None of the legitimate shippers would accept them without declaring them as LiFePO4 and proper protection.
 

RobertGreen

Solar Addict
Damaged replacement cells? If they are that bad I would be surprised if Michael wants them. Did you see them?
Sorry, now that I re-read my message, perhaps the wording wasn't clear.
The CATL cells that they received, which arrived in a damaged condition, were themselves the replacement/alternative cells that were opted for instead of the Lishens which never came into stock.
I assume Michael wants them back so that he can proceed with trying to get resolution from the supplier. It's a somewhat problematic proposal, however, because of the large cost of shipping the things. And that's without getting into the safety or regulatory issues.
After all, what is the proper way to ship a leaky cell?

I haven't seen any of the damaged cells in person, only the pictures of them that were posted in the other thread.

That is going to cost heaps to send even undamaged cells back to Michael with proper packing and declare them as LiFePO4 cells. In my case that would be cost more than the original purchased price (Australia to the USA).
Michael hasn't asked anyone to ship him the damaged cells AFAIK on the forum, the only instance that I am aware of is in this one paypal case.

For what it's worth, I had an issue one time about 5 years ago where I ordered a tool from a USA-based ebay seller who then had the item dropshipped from a third party. After it arrived in a broken condition, I asked to begin a refund/return.
The seller wanted me to ship it back to the real supplier, a company located in China, which would have cost far more in shipping costs than the purchase price of the item. I complained to paypal and they quickly processed a refund for me and told me to dispose of the item-- that it was somehow against their policy for a seller to require you to pay to ship goods back to a location other than where they came from. Apparently, this kind of thing happens a lot.
I don't know if this is at all relevant or if I'm just a foggy-minded Grandpa telling a rambling story about something that happened one time :D
 

Gazoo

Dumb Dumb
The CATL cells that they received, which arrived in a damaged condition, were themselves the replacement/alternative cells that were opted for instead of the Lishens which never came into stock.
I assume Michael wants them back so that he can proceed with trying to get resolution from the supplier. It's a somewhat problematic proposal, however, because of the large cost of shipping the things. And that's without getting into the safety or regulatory issues.
After all, what is the proper way to ship a leaky cell?

I haven't seen any of the damaged cells in person, only the pictures of them that were posted in the other thread.
Ah...got it. Thanks. Yeah IMO no one should be responsible for having to send cells back to Michael. That doesn't make sense. Michael has been sending photos to the supplier and that should be good enough. It would make more sense for the supplier to pay for return shipping including repackaging and have the cells sent back to them. And as you noted I would have no clue how to return a leaky cell. I do understand this is the only instance you are aware of that Michael wants the cells sent back to him. He might have his reasons.

Had these cells been properly packaged to begin with there would be no discussion of hazmat labels. People get cells all the time from China and the boxes don't have any hazmat labels...mine didn't.
 

Gazoo

Dumb Dumb
Cause others don’t properly ship, does that make it right?
Of course not. No doubt some of the packages have been opened by customs and allowed to pass through. I don't recall anyone posting their shipment was confiscated by customs. I have no idea how much it would cost the suppliers to attach a hazmat label...do you? No doubt that cost would be passed on to the buyer.
 

Gazoo

Dumb Dumb
It does not, and that makes it a risk to buy them. What happens when there's a problem and these werent properly declared by the sender?
The only problem I see is if customs starts confiscating packages because they are not properly labeled. That was a concern of mine when I ordered my cells from Michael. But so far there haven't been any confiscated that I am aware of.
 

A.Justice

Swears he didn't start that fire.
I am hopeful the supplier comes through and this mess gets resolved.
It looks like it was the supplier themselves that sent out the crap cells. A lot of them had tape and damage that appeared to have not come from shipping. There are a lot of dents that didn't correspond with external packaging damage.

If the supplier did it on purpose, I wonder what they're going to do about a refund, knowing they're in a different country and not subject to US laws. The seller even has an additional layer of protection through Michael, any financial dispute would go through him, and not through the vendor, making it very difficult to recover the money from the vendor.

At this point, I would most definitely start the process of filing a dispute. If your cells come intact, you can always cancel it. If you push it too far past the dispute window, you may never get your money. The longer you go from the time of the incident, the lower your statistical chances of recovering money become. F**k "rocking the boat".

There's been a lot of talk from Michael about solving this problem, and very few actual results. Whether or not it's his fault, you need to do what you can to protect yourself and your purchase money. I hope he comes through, but this is throwing up every red flag in the book.
 
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