CATL purchases from Michael B Caro

RobertGreen

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At this point, I would most definitely start the process of filing a dispute. If your cells come intact, you can always cancel it. If you push it too far past the dispute window, you may never get your money. The longer you go from the time of the incident, the lower your statistical chances of recovering money become. F**k "rocking the boat".
I'm not sure if that's just how it works.... With Paypal at least (and I assume CC companies have a set of protocols as well) you normally make a purchase protection case for one of two reasons:
-The items purchased were never delivered ("Did not receive" or DNR)
-The items were damaged or not what you ordered ("not as described")

When you try to make a dispute for having not received the item, the seller providing tracking/proof that the items are currently on the way will definitely cause paypal to close the dispute in the sellers favor. I don't know if it would do anyone any good to begin a DNR claim for items that are currently en route to them. I could be wrong here, I've only had to deal with this a dozen or so times over the years.
'Not as described' claims are a bit more complicated as they want you to show the damage and then I think they want to try to establish whether UPS/Fedex is responsible or if the problem was with the seller/supplier.
 

740GLE

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And as soon as pictures of “damaged boxes” are shown, who do you think will get the blame?
 

A.Justice

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I'm not sure if that's just how it works.... With Paypal at least (and I assume CC companies have a set of protocols as well) you normally make a purchase protection case for one of two reasons:
-The items purchased were never delivered ("Did not receive" or DNR)
-The items were damaged or not what you ordered ("not as described")

When you try to make a dispute for having not received the item, the seller providing tracking/proof that the items are currently on the way will definitely cause paypal to close the dispute in the sellers favor. I don't know if it would do anyone any good to begin a DNR claim for items that are currently en route to them. I could be wrong here, I've only had to deal with this a dozen or so times over the years.
'Not as described' claims are a bit more complicated as they want you to show the damage and then I think they want to try to establish whether UPS/Fedex is responsible or if the problem was with the seller/supplier.
I should have clarified more, sorry. I would let PayPal or your CC company know what's going on. Ask them to extend the window because you haven't received your items yet. What I meant by "start the dispute" was to inform your credit card company that you haven't received anything and it's close to the end of the charge back / refund window. You are "disputing" The fact that they haven't been received yet, which should open the window further for refunds at a later date.

Like you said, they'll show proof of shipping and you won't win the dispute at that time, but if something happens when you receive them, the company has been made aware of what's going on, and won't be like "your six month window is been closed for 4 months, why didn't you bring this to our attention earlier?".
 

A.Justice

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And as soon as pictures of “damaged boxes” are shown, who do you think will get the blame?
The shipping company, but without the proper lithium battery labeling, I don't think they will take any form of responsibility, and rightfully so. They didn't have instructions (labels) on how to handle those packages properly, so technically they're not really at fault for the damage.

The "at-fault" party here would be, depending on how you look at it, Michael or his vendor, or both. Michael is the "sales agent" in the United States for those batteries, I would argue that it's his responsibility to make sure that his vendor is labeling them properly for his sales in the States. The batteries were purchased from Michael, and the order was fulfilled by him, through another company, so it really doesn't matter where he got the cells, it's his butt on the line because he's the one selling them.

All of this could be over very quickly with one word. Bankruptcy.
 

Gazoo

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At this point, I would most definitely start the process of filing a dispute. If your cells come intact, you can always cancel it. If you push it too far past the dispute window, you may never get your money. The longer you go from the time of the incident, the lower your statistical chances of recovering money become. F**k "rocking the boat".
Just to be clear I personally have not recommended or suggested anyone go past the dispute period. There is a time limit for disputes and we know it's 180 days for PayPal. Wouldn't statistical chances of recovering money be the same whether a dispute is filed prematurely or at the last minute? I don't think they care about the timing.

All of this could be over very quickly with one word. Bankruptcy.
I agree with that. But neither you or I know Michael's financial status. Given there are apx 300 cells in question anyone can do the math. It's easier to calculate a worst case scenario.
 

Julianl

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The shipping company, but without the proper lithium battery labeling, I don't think they will take any form of responsibility, and rightfully so. They didn't have instructions (labels) on how to handle those packages properly, so technically they're not really at fault for the damage.

The "at-fault" party here would be, depending on how you look at it, Michael or his vendor, or both. Michael is the "sales agent" in the United States for those batteries, I would argue that it's his responsibility to make sure that his vendor is labeling them properly for his sales in the States. The batteries were purchased from Michael, and the order was fulfilled by him, through another company, so it really doesn't matter where he got the cells, it's his butt on the line because he's the one selling them.

All of this could be over very quickly with one word. Bankruptcy.
Ups and FedEx even with proper labeling would refuse any claim due to the packaging of the cells.

Also, it would be very surprising if the supplier paid for insurance.

The supplier is responsible for the loss. What puzzles me is it seems like Michael has very little leverage.
 

Mightymach

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Just to be clear I personally have not recommended or suggested anyone go past the dispute period. There is a time limit for disputes and we know it's 180 days for PayPal. Wouldn't statistical chances of recovering money be the same whether a dispute is filed prematurely or at the last minute? I don't think they care about the timing.


I agree with that. But neither you or I know Michael's financial status. Given there are apx 300 cells in question anyone can do the math. It's easier to calculate a worst case scenario.

Paypal is less than ideal to toy with. Even your own credit card company isn't the greatest. I know from experience, credit card companies are 60 days. I suggest anyone file this well before 60 days. If you're already past this window, file with Paypal. With paypal, you get 180 days. If after 180 days, there is nothing paypal can do for you--period. In my experience, once the 180 day period has lapsed, it is case closed. Again, paypal is less than ideal to deal with and I highly suggest you begin this claims process well before 180 days.

Regarding ~300 cells--nobody knows how accurate that number is. Perhaps it's low, perhaps, it's high. Maybe it's balls on accurate. The fact is, nobody knows anything--we're all in the dark and rapidly approaching credit card/paypal deadlines, if they have not already passed.

Moral of the story--don't delay, file your disputes. If you paid friends and family, you can try to call paypal, I've heard (read) of one case where charges were reversed, but who knows if it was true or not.

I'm still compiling a list of people and cell counts that have either:
  1. Received damaged cells.
  2. Received cells not as advertised.
  3. Had cells recalled and not refunded.
  4. Cells not received.
The list remains anonymous, and I'll provide updates as they come in via email (everyone is BCCd to protect anonymity). You can read the intent (purpose) of this list or the allegations others have (erroneously) thrust at me on this thread.
 

Tdevery

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Just completed my Pay pal refund dispute. 8 Lishen cells ordered in April. Luckly I did not use friends and family. and less than 180 day's
Still about $900. I did ask Michael for a refund 2 weeks ago, no money, so I guess it was enough time.
 

MrM1

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Just completed my Pay pal refund dispute. 8 Lishen cells ordered in April. Luckly I did not use friends and family. and less than 180 day's
Still about $900. I did ask Michael for a refund 2 weeks ago, no money, so I guess it was enough time.
Had you received bad batteries or just a tracking number?
 

texskeet

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What is the purpose of this thread? What do you intend to do with the information provided to you? You have not answered the question. What are your intentions...motives?


There are not nearly 300 people. There are a total of 300+ cells involved according to Michael. Everyone who received damaged cells is speaking up in the thread Brewman started. There was no need to start another one much less ask for peoples info.


I would advise against sending information to you. Honestly I feel it's none of your business even if you might have good intentions. It's Michael's business and it's up to him to make good with everyone who received damaged cells.

Michael has resurfaced and the fact you mention that is very telling. I agree his absence was not cool and I will not excuse it. But it seems as though you have some legal motive for starting this thread. And IMO it's far too early to go in that direction.
300 cells my as I had 64 just me.
 

Will Prowse

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Just so everyone knows, this website assumes no responsibility when purchasing cells (or any product) through individuals or vendors.

I will never regulate, or critique products sold by individuals on this website. Using this website to purchase items is similar to Craigslist, which is at your own personal risk. If you get scammed, you need to report it to the authorities. Not me.

This forum is run by individuals and volunteers only. And funded by me personally. We are not here to background check every person who wants to sell something in our marketplace forum. It is your due diligence and risk when purchasing from any invidual online.

I may critique products on my channel, but that is at my personal discretion through vendors who are licensed and insured. I would never recommend someone trust a stranger on the internet, and send them money.

When I purchase products on craigslist, I bring multiple forms of legal, self-defense protection. I only meet in person, and I use cash. I suggest you do the same.

Also, be sure to check out the "Terms and Rules" of this website by clicking here, if you have not already done so.
 

Ryanw

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Mar 29, 2021
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I ordered 16 Catl Cells from Micheal. 11 arrived, all damaged. The qr codes were scratched off on all cells and every box was packaged to fail. Every box was ripped open when I got it. No bus bars arrived. I have sent multiple messages to Micheal. I have posted in his group buy thread. I sent an email to the lishen refund email address he suggested. It's now been a month and crickets from Micheal. I too feel like I am getting ghosted and will ultimately be ripped off. If anyone knows the special hoops or tricks to get Micheal to give any indication that he will refund my money please share. My goal is to get my money back, not to bad mouth the guy. I'm all ears if anyone has a solution.
 

A.Justice

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I ordered 16 Catl Cells from Micheal. 11 arrived, all damaged. The qr codes were scratched off on all cells and every box was packaged to fail. Every box was ripped open when I got it. No bus bars arrived. I have sent multiple messages to Micheal. I have posted in his group buy thread. I sent an email to the lishen refund email address he suggested. It's now been a month and crickets from Micheal. I too feel like I am getting ghosted and will ultimately be ripped off. If anyone knows the special hoops or tricks to get Micheal to give any indication that he will refund my money please share. My goal is to get my money back, not to bad mouth the guy. I'm all ears if anyone has a solution.
Contact whoever you paid with, either your CC company, or PayPal. I hope you didn't pay with PP friends and family.
 

Ryanw

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Contact whoever you paid with, either your CC company, or PayPal. I hope you didn't pay with PP friends and family.
...unfortunately I took the word of those on this forum and I'm kicking myself. Michael is posting here, so hopefully I get my refund eventually. He's claiming overwhelm and he will eventually get around to people. However it's been a month with zero response personally from him...It doesn't quite give me the warm fuzzy feeling I will get taken care of or when.
 

740GLE

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Give it another 6 months maybe he’ll get things sorted out.

In the meantime, what are you planning to do with your hazardous wares you now have in your possession?
 

Michael B Caro

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Give it another 6 months maybe he’ll get things sorted out.

In the meantime, what are you planning to do with your hazardous wares you now have in your possession?
Everyone that ordered Lishen cells WILL get their refund eventually.

I told everyone that the money for the cells was safe in an account I had for cells. That was true. The slim profit margin was not in that account. So full refunds would have more then exhausted the account., but it would at least have been close. But, many of the people caught up in the CATL debacle have managed to get full refunds even though there were not entitled to any refund until the supplier takes action on those shipments. Those refunds drained the cell account. I have issued refunds with what was left in the account and with all of the savings I had. The ONLY money I have retained is enough to be sure that I can meet payroll for my advertising company.

300 CATL 302ah cells from EV packs were delivered on Wednesday on two pallets and with no shipping damage. As those are being sold, all of that money is going into the cell account to make the Lishen refunds. In addition to these cells I have some Ganfeng and some Keheng cells I am selling as fast as I can and all of that money is going towards Lishen refunds. But, if any more CATL debacle people manage to get refunds, that will further screw up these efforts even more.

I had a husband and wife sales team that worked two territories bail on me, and so I am working long hours covering both of those territories and that, along with some other things that happened about a month or so ago, has limited the time I have and caused there to be for less communication than there should have been. I apologize for that.

I am not a scam artist, and I am not intentionally ghosting anyone.

I completely understand the frustration and I share it. But, I am doing all I can under trying circumstances.
 

Michael B Caro

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...unfortunately I took the word of those on this forum and I'm kicking myself. Michael is posting here, so hopefully I get my refund eventually. He's claiming overwhelm and he will eventually get around to people. However it's been a month with zero response personally from him...It doesn't quite give me the warm fuzzy feeling I will get taken care of or when.
You will. 3,000 unopened emails and limited time to try to catch up on anything.
It is NOT a case of trying to dodge anyone. Some of those, when I do get a chance to open them, are people wanting to buy cells. So it is not just the people involved in the two problems going on that I do not have time to respond to.
 
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