Chargery BMS, DCC (Solid State Contactor) thread.

[hammick]

The SSR control voltage is 12v so unless your battery is 12v, you're out of luck since the Orion would be the negative connection and your battery would be the positive connection.

Any way to make it work on a 48v system using a 12v relay and a 12v AC/DC adapter?

 

[BiduleOhm]

Any way to make it work on a 48v system using a 12v relay and a 12v AC/DC adapter?

Read the post just under the one you quoted

 

[hammick]

Read the post just under the one you quoted

I did but my eyes started twitching. Diodes are way over my pay grade. I think I'll look at the Gigavacs. I can figure that out. Thanks.

 

[BiduleOhm]

Ok, no worries

Edit: I was thinking, you can use a 48 to 12 V DC/DC converter. It's not ideal but all you have to do is connect some wires.

 

[fafrd]

DCC lugs are already sorted.... I got first set out.
I am using a BMS8T which is for 8S and lower.
The New BMS * "P" and others are supposed to be out by end of month as far as I know.

I’m getting more and more enamored with the idea of using a DCC. Can you quickly explain the function of the ‘surge suppressing circuit’ - I understand how that will prevent sparks when first attaching wires, but in actual operation, am I correct that it only plays a role when the DCC reconnects after an HVD or LVD disconnect?

If everything is operating smoothly and the DCC is never needed to disconnect by the BMS, it has no impact, correct?

From your history with Chargery and the various (past) criticisms, what are the downsides on your view to going with Chargery as a BMS solution / supplier (if any)?

 

[Steve_S]

I dunno about Surge Suppressing. Each DC has a Pre-Charge circuit built is to serve the Inverter Start Demand to precharge it's capacitors before it comes on and goes into Inverting Mode.

This feature works very well too as I have had the Inverter Capacitors fully drain during my Thrash Tests because all packs cutoff while the Inverter was inverting which empties the capacitors. Part of the Fault Handling Tests. NO SPARKING ALLOWED and they don't happen and the initial surge demand without is gnarly. as I have LEAD as well, I've seen that pull first hand and it's a whopper !

Suppliers ? Amy Wan @ Luyuan Carries them, I think XUBA still does but dunno, I put Amy in Contact with Jason ages ago when she was at XUBA and they picked up the line, when she took over Luyuan she kept Chargery BMS but is adding a couple of other models which are commonly used by folks here based on my input. I've always gotten mine directly from Jason @ Chargery.

Do I see issues with Chargery ? No system is perfect but overall I am quite happy with them with 2 exceptions.
A) Passive Balancing is fairly useless with large capacity cells. The new P series will have good Active Balancing.
B) RS232 Data Out Only, it's handy for reading the info but not interactive, can't be used for programming settings etc. The new P series will have RS232/485 & CanBus (a Bidirectional protocol) so that is a big win, I was hoping for ModBus because I use ModBus - TCPIP to interact with my Midnite SCC & Samlex Inverter.

The DCC unlike sealed Contactors like the TE/Kilovacs / Gigavacs is "open air" so that is a limitation depending on where the installation will live. For Land based ESS or "DRY" environs the DCC is perfectly fine but a damp/wet situation it would not do.

P series BMS' are due for release anytime now, Jason and a few have been doing Hard Testing on them before any release is to happen.

 

[fafrd]

I dunno about Surge Suppressing.

Believe I copied that term from your first post starting this thread . (or if not, another post by you on the first page of the thre

Each DC has a Pre-Charge circuit built is to serve the Inverter Start Demand to precharge it's capacitors before it comes on and goes into Inverting Mode.

This feature works very well too as I have had the Inverter Capacitors fully drain during my Thrash Tests because all packs cutoff while the Inverter was inverting which empties the capacitors. Part of the Fault Handling Tests. NO SPARKING ALLOWED and they don't happen and the initial surge demand without is gnarly. as I have LEAD as well, I've seen that pull first hand and it's a whopper !

I’ve not had any issue with sparks from my inverter except when first attaching wires from the live battery (with the inverter off), so I’m not quite understanding when you are concerned about a surge.

If the BMS disconnects the battery - from the inverter -, I suppose the inverter - will charge up to battery + (24V in my case) so that when the battery - is reconnected to the terminal/cell -, there will be a big surge of current to discharge the inverter capacitors from battery + volts to battery - volts, is that the ‘surge’ you are

Suppliers ? Amy Wan @ Luyuan Carries them, I think XUBA still does but dunno, I put Amy in Contact with Jason ages ago when she was at XUBA and they picked up the line, when she took over Luyuan she kept Chargery BMS but is adding a couple of other models which are commonly used by folks here based on my input. I've always gotten mine directly from Jason @ Chargery.

I was speaking more about Chargery / Jason themselves rather than resellers. Sounds as though you’ve been pretty happy with the responsiveness and customer service you’ve gotten from

Do I see issues with Chargery ? No system is perfect but overall I am quite happy with them with 2 exceptions.

A) Passive Balancing is fairly useless with large capacity cells. The new P series will have good Active Balancing.

OK, that right there enough for me to hold out for the P Series. Do you know whether the Active Balancing will be capacitive-based or inductive-based? Will it only operate between adjacent cells like Heltec or will it be able to charge any weakest cell from any strongest cell?

Is there any idea yet what $premium the new series may entail (at 8S)?

Heltec’s active balancers have a bit of a reputation for giving out, so my only hesitancy over going for a BMS with Active Balancing is if that introduces yet another point of failure (which will require some lifetime testing to really evaluate).

B) RS232 Data Out Only, it's handy for reading the info but not interactive, can't be used for programming settings etc. The new P series will have RS232/485 & CanBus (a Bidirectional protocol) so that is a big win, I was hoping for ModBus because I use ModBus - TCPIP to interact with my Midnite SCC & Samlex Inverter.

Not a priority for me but future-proofing is always a hooc

The DCC unlike sealed Contactors like the TE/Kilovacs / Gigavacs is "open air" so that is a limitation depending on where the installation will live. For Land based ESS or "DRY" environs the DCC is perfectly fine but a damp/wet situation it would not do.

I’m dry, so that’s not an issue for me.

P series BMS' are due for release anytime now, Jason and a few have been doing Hard Testing on them before any release is to happen.

Holding my breath...

 

[Steve_S]

When an inverter first powers up, the capacitors in it are empty. Before it can start inversion the capacitors have to be charged up and that inrush surge can be very high and many BMS' will trip. The Battery Bank voltage is irrelevant. Capacitors can take a Low Amp input to precharge and that is what the precharge circuit does, it provides enough voltage out & enough amp "space" to charge the capacitors and avoid the inrush demand.

Look at the Chargery Manual, you will see who the editor was.

Jason / Chargery is one of the RARE Manufacturers who listens & hears client suggestions & ideas and works to implement them if reasonable. The DCC is one such example, they only sold those Electro-Mechanical PIG Relays and when Craig & I started testing different Contactors & Relays and SSR's (including commissioning new designs to support 500A & 1000, all the while with us being in contact with Jason, we convinced him that it would be prudent to make a DCC to suit ESS uses. The P series BMS' are Based off our Input & suggestions which is more focused towards ESS usage and bigger capacity systems.

The Chargery BMS' were originally designed for LEV (Light Electric Vehicles) NOT for ESS use.

Ironically, people who Harped on Chargery Issues went off and bought other BMS' like Batrium & Others which ALSO suffer similar issues and they are talking about that in separate threads. I read it, and wonder why they have not figured out that Many BMS' have similar issues.

Now, I have to add this here. One common thing that happens and some refuse to understand. The battery Cabling MUST be kept together to prevent ripple and magnetic fields (DC does this, higher voltage, worse it gets). This has a DIRECT Impact on BMS' and their voltage sensing / monitoring.

FROM SAMLEX (I won't bother re-writing this, as it says it all.)

1.3.4 Electro-Magnetic Interference (EMI) and FCC Compliance These inverters contain internal switching devices that generate conducted and radiated electromagnetic interference (EMI). The EMI is unintentional and cannot be entirely eliminated. The magnitude of EMI is, however, limited by circuit design to acceptable levels as per limits laid down in North American FCC Standard FCC Part 15(B), Class A. These limits are designed to provide reasonable protection against harmful interference when the equipment is operated in a residential environment. These inverters can conduct and radiate radio frequency energy and, if not installed and used in accordance with the instruction manual, may cause harmful interference to radio communications. The effects of EMI will also depend upon a number of factors external to the inverter like proximity of the inverter to the EMI receptors, types and quality of connecting wires and cables etc. EMI due to factors external to the inverter may be reduced as follows:
• Ensure that the inverter is firmly grounded to the Ground System of the building or the vehicle.
• Locate the inverter as far away from the EMI receptors like radio, audio and video devices as possible.
• Keep the DC side wires between the battery and the inverter as short as possible.
• Do NOT keep the battery wires far apart. Keep them taped together to reduce their inductance and induced voltages. This reduces ripple in the battery wires and improves performance and efficiency.
• Shield the DC side wires with metal sheathing / copper foil / braiding.
• Use coaxial shielded cable for all antenna inputs (instead of 300 ohm twin leads).
• Use high quality shielded cables to attach audio and video devices to one another.
• Limit operation of other high power loads when operating audio / video equipment.

Considering, when I am all done (Last 280AH pack underway), I will have 1,190AH / 30.464 kWh as my LFP bank. It is a significant investment and I am certainly not about to screw around and do a half assed job of it, especially because I am 100% offgrid, very remote and dependent on my systems. I won't install any craptastic stuff as a result. If I can do it, I will replace all of my BMS8T's with BMS8-P's which will also allow me to yank out the QNBBM-8S Active Balancers and that is a fair sized chunk of change BTW.

 

[bagmanmike]

Found this thread today and I'm reading with a lot of interest in the DCCs. But some specs I'm unable to find:
What is the pinout of the Driven Port?
What is the "pull in" voltage minimum, drop out voltage, and minimum switching voltage?
Where is the fan voltage derived and is that included in the specified draw? I realize by the time it comes on it will be a very small percentage.
I've found nothing on the "ISO" board specs except that it is required to place the DCC on the positive lead. And why?

Thanks to those that have been testing so far and for getting word of this product out. Found it here by chance after weeks of SSR searches!

 

[Steve_S]

Driven Port ? I assume the 4 Pin connector from the BMS to DCC. 2 pins for the discharge side, 2 pins for the charge side. simple +/- with red being positive obviously.
Pull In Voltage ? It is a Solid State Smart Contactor.
Fan Voltage ? If memory serves from when I opened up the DCC, std 12V low amp, sourced from the PCB in the DCC. I've pushed my 300A units to 250A and they didn't even get warm with an ambient temp of 15C in the bilding. Fans haven't come on.

ISO Board: filters ripple noise and more, quite a simple gizmo.

Chargery BMS News / UPDATE (Nov.25.2020) Ver 4.02 firmware

I am Cross Posting Jasons update info which is spread around to this thread. Any items that pop up related to this Firmware Update etc should be posted or linked to in this thread to make it easier to locate, track and address. It will help solve issues and answer questions. Thanks in Advance...

diysolarforum.com

 

[fafrd]

When an inverter first powers up, the capacitors in it are empty. Before it can start inversion the capacitors have to be charged up and that inrush surge can be very high and many BMS' will trip. The Battery Bank voltage is irrelevant. Capacitors can take a Low Amp input to precharge and that is what the precharge circuit does, it provides enough voltage out & enough amp "space" to charge the capacitors and avoid the inrush demand.

Maybe I’ve been lucky and never used experienced that, but since I see a large spark when cables are first connected (to my OFF 3kW inverter), it also occurs to me that my inverter might have those same ‘surge suppression’ capacitors and circuitry integrated internally - do inverters themselves ever integrate the capacitors to handle startup surge?

Look at the Chargery Manual, you will see who the editor was.

Jason / Chargery is one of the RARE Manufacturers who listens & hears client suggestions & ideas and works to implement them if reasonable. The DCC is one such example, they only sold those Electro-Mechanical PIG Relays and when Craig & I started testing different Contactors & Relays and SSR's (including commissioning new designs to support 500A & 1000, all the while with us being in contact with Jason, we convinced him that it would be prudent to make a DCC to suit ESS uses. The P series BMS' are Based off our Input & suggestions which is more focused towards ESS usage and bigger capacity systems.

The Chargery BMS' were originally designed for LEV (Light Electric Vehicles) NOT for ESS use.

That’s one of the things that makes a Chargery solution attractive to me...

Ironically, people who Harped on Chargery Issues went off and bought other BMS' like Batrium & Others which ALSO suffer similar issues and they are talking about that in separate threads. I read it, and wonder why they have not figured out that Many BMS' have similar issues.

Now, I have to add this here. One common thing that happens and some refuse to understand. The battery Cabling MUST be kept together to prevent ripple and magnetic fields (DC does this, higher voltage, worse it gets). This has a DIRECT Impact on BMS' and their voltage sensing / monitoring.

I was planning the keep my + and - wires running together except where the battery terminals converge on a central point. I’ve got a 1-row 8S 280Ah battery, so ~30cm / 12” of wire coming to the center of the battery from + terminal and - terminal. That can’t cause any concern with ripple and magnetic fields of sort you’ve mentioned, can it?

FROM SAMLEX (I won't bother re-writing this, as it says it all.)


Considering, when I am all done (Last 280AH pack underway), I will have 1,190AH / 30.464 kWh as my LFP bank. It is a significant investment and I am certainly not about to screw around and do a half assed job of it, especially because I am 100% offgrid, very remote and dependent on my systems. I won't install any craptastic stuff as a result. If I can do it, I will replace all of my BMS8T's with BMS8-P's which will also allow me to yank out the QNBBM-8S Active Balancers and that is a fair sized chunk of change BTW.

What is it about your cells that convinced you you needed Active Balancing? I have a Heltec Active Balancer that I was planning to connect every ~3 months or so or on whatever schedule my 8S 280Ah battery ‘strays’ to keep charge cycles from tripping HVD. Are you seeing evidence that enough imbalance develops over a small number of charge cycles that you need Active Balance available to all cells continuously?

 

[cinergi]

The DCC does not have a proper pre-charge circuit despite it being sold as such. Once I explained it to Jason, he agreed with me (his reply is in one of these massive threads somewhere). I don't know when he plans to implementing a proper one.

 

[Steve_S]

This is running OFF TOPIC. This is my final in here.

Never seen an Inverter with a Precharge circuit built-in.
The capacitors are NOT surge suppression anything. They are a Buffer between incoming DC & the electronics & circuitry.
The shorter the DC Power cables the better, reduces potential for EMI/RFI and more.
* My run lengths are 14' / 4.26m and I use ONLY Royal Excelene 4/0 from battery pack terminals through to Inverter.
Any DC wiring can cause ripple emi & rfi if not done properly.

Imbalances can & do grow over time, worse with larger cells IMO.
The Bulk/Commodity cells which are NOT Matched & Batched deviate especially below 3.00V and above 3.400V, that deviation can & does cause premature trips if the cells are too far apart... notably the Runners & Lazies.

 

[bagmanmike]

Driven Port ?

"Driven port" is Chargery's terminology: DCC Contactor V1.1 Manual where we have statements such as
"The connection wire connect ISO
board to two DCC on separate
port. Please indentify the charge
and discharge control signal."

A pinout might help me determine where the fan voltage is derived (especially if switching the negative lead) as there would be some positive source greater than 3mA (8 + 3 no fan vs. fan) required.
The other parameters are necessary for proper integration i.e. will 3.3 or 5V suffice to trigger.

 

[fafrd]

The DCC does not have a proper pre-charge circuit despite it being sold as such. Once I explained it to Jason, he agreed with me (his reply is in one of these massive threads somewhere). I don't know when he plans to implementing a proper one.

Do you own a Chargery BMS?

What is the problem with the DCC and how serious is it?

 

[cinergi]

Do you own a Chargery BMS?

What is the problem with the DCC and how serious is it?

Yes, I own two and abandoned both the Chargery BMS and the DCC for a number of reasons. I made a video about it all:

 

[Chargery]

about DCC install and operation, there are detailed connection diagram and instructions. orginally the DCC must be installed on battery negative, but it is not safe when battery volage is over 36V. when DCC open, the loarder sider and charger side has high voltage. when we release ISO board, the DCC can be installed on battery positive with the ISO board, when DCC open. except battery side, anywhere is low voltage.
to realize pre-charge function and anti spark when connect charger or inverter/loader, the DCC must be turned on finally, that is to say. charger and inverter should be connect to DCC ( terminal A or B）and connect DCC ( terminal B or A) first, A or B is not different because DCC is bi-directional..

the operation instructions as below, it is from DCC manual.

 

[Chargery]

DCC has 12V cooling fan, when heat sink temperature over pre-setting, it will turn on.

but since I see a large spark when cables are first connected (to my OFF 3kW inverter),

if turn on DCC first, then connect battery to DCC, and connect DCC to charger or inverter, the pre-charge circuit is not useful.

 

[bagmanmike]

Yes, I own two and abandoned both the Chargery BMS and the DCC for a number of reasons. I made a video about it all:

So your video sort of illustrated what I was getting at when I asked out pinouts and a voltage source for the fan. There has to be some voltage reference for whatever circuitry inside the DCC is to operate. It's plainly more than just a SSR and when installed on the negative lead, that circuitry is in an unknown state activated by some bleed current until control voltage is applied. It seems that it should have a always on 12v power input aside from control and switching contacts.

 

[NobodyOfNaught]

Can someone let me know the exact distance in mm between the terminals on the 300 amp DCC contactor?