Cheap chinese horizontal wind turbine, an in depth exploration.

[brandnewb]

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Please do not reference to unproven products. A proven product should at least have an rpm vs some kind of output graph with warranties.

for the building of a DIY alternator that actually works please see

Building the sickest ® VAWT ever. Brilliant minds unite please!!

--- TL;DR update UPDATE: 26/10/2024 now we learn that Hedges was correct all along. It is about the frequency of field reversal. We are now at 200+ watts. I am sure though that we can up this to insane levels!! UPDATE: 22/04/2024 82 wattage potential for a 35-70--35 coil? Let us hope I did not...

diysolarforum.com

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I recently received my very first wind turbine from, wait for it.. you've guessed it!
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000707176751.html
I ordered the 48 volts version.

Images below

Now I do not expect the advertised 6000watts of power generation potential and even the seller admitted only to expect 4000watts which I still do not believe.

I did not order any extra components yet as I first want to test what it can generate as my location is ideal for high wind loads even though in an urban area.

Now how can I test what the 3 phase AC generator is generating in terms of watt, amp, volts and the likes (please forgive me if I include units here that are not relevant in this stage as I am a total newb)

There are 3 wires available (I am assuming one for each of the 3 phases) where I can connect something while it is spinning to see what, if any, flows over the wire.

Could anyone please advice me on how to proceed? what tool to buy to be able to test the power generation on each of the phases.





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TL;DR Update

Current verdict = Don't do it!!!
The blades need to spin far too fast for the alternator to generate any useful output. That is not safe.
I am considering a vertical turbine at the moment knowing full well the efficiency will be even less that a horizontal one like this but I believe they are less dangerous.

winding resistance (kilo Ohm)​	​	​	​	​
​	leads​	​	​	​
​	​	a​	b​	44.1​
​	​	c​	b​	49.5​
​	​	a​	c​	49.5​
Rpm +- 315​	no load​	​	​	​
Alternating Current, measured with the Aac at 200m setting​	​	​	​	​
​	leads​	​	​	​
​	​	a​	b​	5.6​
​	​	c​	b​	5.1​
​	​	a​	c​	5.5​
​	​	​	​	​
Vac​	​	​	​	​
​	leads​	​	​	​
​	​	a​	b​	26.2​
​	​	c​	b​	24.3​
​	​	a​	c​	26​
​	​	​	​	​
Vdc​	​	​	​	34.3​
​	​	​	​	​
Direct Current, measured with the Adc at 200m setting​	​	​	​	8.3​

alternator output with 3 phase full bridge rectifier attached;

with load (details below)
rpm: +- 820 (my poor drill has difficulties)
Vdc: 2.45
Adc: 1.65

The load details (light bulb)
resistance = 2.5
12V
55W

Results at +- 320 rpm and 4 x 12v5w bulb in series (48v 20w load if not mistaken)

Cheap chinese horizontal wind turbine, an in depth exploration.

Sorry I have been MIA, life gets in the way sometimes. Please excuse me if I am rehashing something that was posted. 4 12v 5 watt lights in series, makes for a 48v light at 20 watts. (see note below) The wind generator should be connected to the rectifier, the output of the rectifier should be...

diysolarforum.com

additional info and photo's of dissasembled alternator

Cheap chinese horizontal wind turbine, an in depth exploration.

I still very much believe, not having read that kindle yet so I might be way off, that for an alternator to do something usefull at low rpm one needs to increase the diameter by alot. Have much more poles and much more coild groups. theneven at slow speeds the outer part of the rotatory is...

diysolarforum.com

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[Porch]

Did it come with a controller?

 

[brandnewb]

I did not order a controller yet, I did not want to potentially waste more money than needed. I'd like to first test it out and perhaps order a controller from a reputable source.

I do have a fluke multi meter

Fluke T5-600 Voltmeter, Continuity and Current Tester | Fluke

Check voltage, continuity and current with Fluke T5-600 V digital voltmeter. Just select volts, ohms, or current, and let the tester do the rest!

www.fluke.com

is there some kind of load (I have a 3 phase electrical heater for example ) I can connect to the 3 wires and use the fluke to measure volts, amps on the 3 wires separately?

 

[Porch]

I did not order a controller yet, I did not want to potentially waste more money than needed. I'd like to first test it out and perhaps order a controller from a reputable source.

I do have a fluke multi meter

Fluke T5-600 Voltmeter, Continuity and Current Tester | Fluke

Check voltage, continuity and current with Fluke T5-600 V digital voltmeter. Just select volts, ohms, or current, and let the tester do the rest!

www.fluke.com

is there some kind of load (I have a 3 phase electrical heater for example ) I can connect to the 3 wires and use the fluke to measure volts, amps on the 3 wires separately?

Well, you can measure volts (AC) across any of the wires while spinning it with a drill. That will tell you if they connected up the wires inside.
As for amps, connect a 12v car tail light (non LED) across any of the 2 wires and spin it with a drill (start slow). If it lights up, then you have amps.

As for how you can tell if it puts out it's rated power, that is hard to do without the controller.

 

[brandnewb]

for measuring AC volts, the wires do not have to be connected to a load? As in I just leave them unconnected and put my mmeter around one of the wires while the turbine spins?

for amps, did you mean connect a 12 volt car tail light to any 2 of the 3 phase wires?

 

[Porch]

Leave them unconnected and measure AC volts.
Correct on the amps.

Test between several different combination of wires. So between wires 1 and 2, then 2 and 3, then 3 and 1. Assuming it's spinning the same speed each time, the voltages and the light should light up the same.

 

[brandnewb]

it spun crazy fast, without a load, in the current wind we are having. The blades even started making noice which my neighbors will probably complain about

But my fluke did not detect any volts on any of the 3 wires when I held them, 1 each time separately, unconnected in the back of the open clamp.

should I go complain to the seller or is there something else I can try?

Why I did find weird though is that the coils in the generator are touching each other. But that could be perfectly normal it just seemed weird to me as a newcomer.

 

[Porch]

So unless the wires are disconnected in the generator, you should be getting some AC voltage. Make sure you are using the meter right.
The wires are coated with a lacquer, so they should not be shorting out or anything. This is normal for any motor or generator.

Wind generators like this tend to make far more noise then power, so it might be working as designed. Not just what you want it to do.

 

[Hedges]

Was your meter set for AC volts or for DC?
Coming off the windings would be AC. After a rectifier, if there is one, DC (actually pulses of DC).

Use a compass, also a screwdriver or paper clip, to see if the armature is magnetic.
If magnetic, it could produce power just by spinning. If not, it is a synchronous motor/generator which can only push current if externally excited by voltage.

If voltage is produced, you can test under load with a resistance heater. Light bulb would work for lower power (but varies in resistance with temperature.) I used oil-filled radiator heaters as a load for PV panels - in that case I needed an external DC rated switch. With AC output from turbine, the existing switches should be fine. Just measuring voltage you can calculate current and power.

 

[brandnewb]

The t5-600 mmeter was set to volts mode in which case it auto selects AC or DC. In this case it defaulted to AC before I put any wires through the clamp.
The generator is sold as 3 phase AC. There is no rectifier as far as I could tell which would be a good thing as I expected a 3 phase AC generator.

Use a compass, also a screwdriver or paper clip, to see if the armature is magnetic.
If magnetic, it could produce power just by spinning. If not, it is a synchronous motor/generator which can only push current if externally excited by voltage.

Could you please elaborate a bit? What is the armature in this scenario? The metal casing around the generator?
item 1 on the image below?
I have tested for magnetism on all exposed metal parts but it does not seem to be. So does 'externally excited by voltage' mean that I first need to connect it to a load (e.g. 3 phase electric heater) before I can measure any voltage and/or amps?

 

[Porch]

The t5-600 mmeter was set to volts. it auto selects AC or DC. In this case it defaulted to AC before I put any wires through the clamp.

Use the probes. The measuring voltage on the clamp part of the meter is designed for house hold AC power and is unreliable on anything else. And tends to be unreliable in general.

 

[Porch]

Could you please elaborate a bit? What is the armature in this scenario? The metal casing around the generator?
item 1 on the image below?
I have tested for magnetism on all exposed metal parts but it does not seem to be. So does 'externally excited by voltage' mean that I first need to connect it to a load (e.g. 3 phase electric heater) before I can measure any voltage and/or amps?

On your first image, see all the 12 flat pancake looking metal bit attached to the round spinning part. They should be magnets. No extra excite voltage needed. It spins, it makes power, assuming it works.

 

[brandnewb]

Use the probes.

by touching any 1 distinct wire (of the 3 wires) per probe separately at the same time?
Do I need to expose the coper inside the wires or can it be done on the red wire coat?

 

[Porch]

 

[brandnewb]

i watched the whole video and also some videos on the specific t5 model. None of them seem to show how to measure volts with probes on exposed wires. only how to put the probes into a power socket.

I did test the unit in a socket and it measures fine using the probes. the unit also beeps when touching the probes together in resistance mode which was demonstrated in an earlier t5 video as some sort if unit test if I am not mistaken.

could you please elaborate on how to use the probes in this specific scenario?

 

[Porch]

i watched the whole video and also some videos on the specific t5 model. None of them seem to show how to measure volts with probes on exposed wires. only how to put the probes into a power socket.

I did test the unit in a socket and it measures fine using the probes. the unit also beeps when touching the probes together in resistance mode which was demonstrated in an earlier t5 video as some sort if unit test if I am not mistaken.

could you please elaborate on how to use the probes in this specific scenario?

Probes need to touch the raw copper wires. You will need to strip the insulation off the red wires. One probe touches the copper on one red wire, the other probe on the copper on other red wire. Order does not matter in the way we are testing it. Both probes need to be connected at the same time.

Use some clips or strip the red wires so you can wrap the copper around the probes so they stay connected without you having to hold it on while you spin the generator. Nothing should be touching the end of the probes or exposed copper part of the wire when you are spinning it.

 

[Hedges]

You will need to strip the insulation off the red wires.

To clarify, that is the flexible red wires coming out of the generator, not the red enamel solid wires of the field winding.

This alternator may produce hazardous voltages and currents. So don't touch the leads when spinning it. Best to set up first with alligator clips, otherwise hold probes by insulated handles.

 

[Smokin]

6000 watts in Chinglish is 600 watts in English probably 300 watts expected.
The trick to these windmills has to do with tip speed. 90 MPH tip speed the blades are trimmed right to offer the rated current. If you use long wire runs these over-rev. Causing the tip speed to be way to high. The blades run in a poor air flow and poor power out. It is important to have a large wire from alternator to battery. An Ideal setup would be a very short wire run like found on Sailboats. If you put it on a tower and use a long wire run all bets are off.

To test the 3 windings short all three togather and spin it by have and you can feel the drag.

What to do is short all 3 wires togather and let the wind blow. You will be generating 0 volts and the windmill will never speed up enough to get into trim. The regulators work this was by shorting the 3 leads from the windmill together to force the windmill to charge a 0 volt load and this stops the blades from spinning. When the battery need power the short contactor opens and the blades rev up to rated speed and load and generate. If the wires are to long the blades will spin to fast and make a hell of a lot of noise and the output will suffer.
Does this make any sense.??

In a 20 knot breeze the blades will be running at 80 mph tip speed. The apparent wind on the blades will be like 90 to 100 knots. The blades are airfoils and are angled to optimize at this speed so the airfoil is in trim.

Setting up a wind turbine is an Art and it takes some time to get your head wraped around how they really work and how to optimize them.

https://www.nmmesa.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Aerodynamics-of-Wind-Turbine-Blades.pdf

All you really have to do to test the windings is short 20 of the 3 wires and spin the shaft and you will feel cogging. Then hook up the other 2 and repeat. The the other 2 and repeat. All 3 coils should behave the same. Then hook all 3 togather and you should feel a strong dull smooth 3 phase effect when turnong the shaft by hand. This test will tell you the coils are good. Put the device in service and run it and run some more test on it. Don't go out and order a 6 kw windmill controller. That thing won't do more than 400 watts on a good day.

 

[Porch]

6000 watts in Chinglish is 600 watts in English probably 300 watts expected.
The trick to these windmills has to do with tip speed. 90 MPH tip speed the blades are trimmed right to offer the rated current. If you use long wire runs these over-rev. Causing the tip speed to be way to high. The blades run in a poor air flow and poor power out. It is important to have a large wire from alternator to battery. An Ideal setup would be a very short wire run like found on Sailboats. If you put it on a tower and use a long wire run all bets are off.

This unit might be slightly better as using 3 phase (and I am assuming higher voltage) is better for longer wire runs. But that alternator is tiny. I think the 300 watts might be a bit much unless spinning with a drill.

 

[brandnewb]

All you really have to do to test the windings is short 20 of the 3 wires

To clarify, that is the flexible red wires coming out of the generator, not the red enamel solid wires of the field winding

understood

Does this make any sense.??

a little yes, I am sure I will grasp it better as I get more experienced.

But that alternator is tiny.

What would be the alternator? is that the rotating ring of magnets on the inside on my first photo? And if so would that make the coils on the outside that are static (do not rotate) the stator? Or would I call the alternator the combination of both those parts or is that better called the generator?

I'll be sure to keep you guys updated here on how this turbine behaves tomorrow when I continue with this project.

 

[Smokin]

It's not an Alternater yet because there is no Diode pack attached to it. It is a Motor/generator.
The spinning thing has magnets on it which makes up the thing called an Armature.
The coil thing is called a Stator.
The moving magnets cause current and voltage to flow in the coils. The faster the spinning the higher the voltage. The more torque the more current.
What you have here is a typical 3 phase permanet magnet motor. However this can also be used as a generator. Same thing as Hoverboard motors and ebike motors.
There insanely simple.
This thing is not a 6000 watt motor/generator. But it was cheap and they cool to play with. Instead of feeling ripped off, take the time and study it and you will be better for it. These things are toys. If you get board you can mount it to a bicycle or gocart, off the back and run it on an ebike controller and that would be cool. Mad Max chit rite there.
You could make it into a ceiling fan.

 

[Porch]

understood

a little yes, I am sure I will grasp it better as I get more experienced.


What would be the alternator? is that the rotating ring of magnets on the inside on my first photo? And if so would that make the coils on the outside that are static (do not rotate) the stator? Or would I call the alternator the combination of both those parts or is that better called the generator?

I'll be sure to keep you guys updated here on how this turbine behaves tomorrow when I continue with this project.

So the rotating part in the middle is called the "rotor" and the ring of wires on the outside is called the stator. This applies to an alternator, generator, or motor.

In this application, since it's making AC, or alternating current, it's called an alternator. Your car has the same thing under the hood.
A generator, is wired different, and makes DC power. This is called a generator.

They both "generate" power, but it's done in slightly different ways and both have pros and cons.

Generators make DC power. The spinning part in the middle (the rotor) does much of the work, so they have big brushes inside that arc and spark away and have a limited life span. The amount of power they made, could not be adjusted. They spin at one speed, they make one level of power. They used generators in cars up until the 1960s with the main issues with the brushes wearing out, and making very little power when the car is at idle.

Alternators make AC power. The rotor (spinning part) is only used for regulation with simple brushes inside last a long time. They require a rectifier and controller to convert the AC to DC. The amount of power they generate can be adjusted by the controller/regulator, so the regulator can tell the alternator to make more power when the car is at idle. The down side to the alternator is there is some electronics to make it work.

The above is a very basic overview. But all cars since the late 1960s used alternators.

Your wind generator is an alternator, but it they put permanent magnets in the rotor, so in affect, they removed the regulation part and turned it on full power all the time. The pros of this, as you need zero brushes in the alternator, so it can last a long time. Just 1 moving part.

But now your regulator/controller must do something with any extra power as it can't tell the alternator to "stop making power". This is why solar systems use dump loads to turn that extra power into heat.

 

[Smokin]

Yupp

 

[brandnewb]

enlightening information from everyone. thank you all so much.

I have confirmed the alternator is working with one possible issue on wires 2 and 3 combined.

when using a drill to rotate the alternator I get when rotating on full speed.
wires 1 and 2 90 volts
wires 1 and 3 91 volts
wires 2 and 3 84 volts (is this a problem?)

In all 3 configurations, while slowly increasing the rpm of the drill, the volts quite quickly rise to and above 48 volts. I am getting excited as the windy season is upon us here in my area. But I realize that because I do not have a tachometer I can not compare the rpm of the drill to the rpm our windows can produce so I am ready for disappointment

I will run the same experiment with actual wind rather than a drill today because now it is already quite windy.

in the meantime can I hook up my 3 phase (380 volt) electical heater (as I do not have a car tail light) to the wires and run an amps/watt test?
The eheater has a 15kw, a 10kw and a 5kw setting. Can anyone please advice on how to proceed in order to test how much watts / amps this alternator can generate?

 

[Smokin]

That not going to work. What you need to do is hook it up to a diode trio and then to the 48 volt battery and let the wind blow. Test it that way. Measure the amps volts. Log the results. You will need some kind of charge controller.