Clean power

[edrivas411]

What inverter or AIO offers clean power? I am always concerned as new appliances want clean power. Please include make model and sine wave that the inverter or AIO you are talking about. The new 12,000xp looks great but if it fries your refrigerator every time your minisplit starts then not good.

 

[AntronX]

All pure sine wave inverters have clean power, 12000xp included.

 

[edrivas411]

All pure sine wave inverters have clean power, 12000xp included.

Is it still clean as it reaches capacity? Does a low frequency inverter have cleaner power closer to capacity than a high frequency inverter? At some point as the inverter reaches capacity or goes into surge, the power has to fluctuate.

 

[Brucey]

Is it still clean as it reaches capacity? Does a low frequency inverter have cleaner power closer to capacity than a high frequency inverter? At some point as the inverter reaches capacity or goes into surge, the power has to fluctuate.

You may want to look at a Victron inverter if you need clean power and significant surge capabilities. The 12000XP is a new and unproven (tho should be reasonably solid as a Luxpower design).

 

[timselectric]

A pure sine wave inverter provides cleaner power than most grid systems.

 

[Madcodger]

I've had both Victron and EG4 inverters and can't tell any difference in terms of the quality of the power. Both are fantastic and as @timselectric notes, far better than we've had in on-grid homes. I'd recommend either, and still use both. As for what happens right at the very edge of rated performance I can't tell you, because I don't run anything right up to the very edge of its specs. But if you stay within those with a bit of safety margin, a quality inverter is an amazing way to power a building.

 

[pawanranta]

At the cost of sounding like a noob, what exactly clean power means in context of inverter? Something to do with fluctuations in sine waveform?

 

[timselectric]

At the cost of sounding like a noob, what exactly clean power means in context of inverter? Something to do with fluctuations in sine waveform?

Near zero fluctuations in frequency or voltage.

 

[Mattb4]

What inverter or AIO offers clean power? I am always concerned as new appliances want clean power. ...

Some new appliances need a proper NG bonded power supply (GFCI protected) but not many (if any) are effected negatively by any of the new PSW inverters out there. Most of the old inverter powered items problems were due to MSW (Modified Square Wave) designs. Some LED lights however are known to pulse with use of a PSW inverter supply.

 

[edrivas411]

You may want to look at a Victron inverter if you need clean power and significant surge capabilities. The 12000XP is a new and unproven (tho should be reasonably solid as a Luxpower design).

Yes but the initial question was to see all options. I am curious to know what people would choose and why keeping in mind clean power? This can help everyone learn the options available from a clean power point of view.

 

[BarracudaBob]

Total harmonic distortion (THD) is a measure of the amount of harmonic distortion in an inverter's output signal compared to its original frequency. THD is a useful quality indicator of an inverter's output voltage or current.

Factors that can affect an inverter's THD include:
The type of inverter
The load being driven
The switching frequency of the inverter
The shape of the output waveform
Variations in DC voltages
Variations in switching angles

Some ways to reduce THD include:
Using an LC, series, and shunt filter
Using a DT compensation algorithm
Using a high modulation frequency to generate more precise sinusoidal AC voltage waveforms

Want to quickly tell the difference between the inverter total harmonic distortion (THD), rating. THD refers to power quality output. It will be listed on any inverter. Choose a pure sine wave inverter with a THD of 5% or less as a rule of thumb to avoid problems.

 

[HRTKD]

Yes but the initial question was to see all options. I am curious to know what people would choose and why keeping in mind clean power? This can help everyone learn the options available from a clean power point of view.

You're asking a lot. Nobody that I know of has gone out there and bought every major inverter and tested it.

 

[BarracudaBob]

It used to be a big deal but everything got so much better the industry didn't see any issues and stopped looking for good THD or measuring it went the way of the Dodo Bird. Work Trucks and first responders paid big bucks for huge inverters to produce low THD. They could hear the difference in their power tools. Now it is a non issue.

 

[edrivas411]

Some new appliances need a proper NG bonded power supply (GFCI protected) but not many (if any) are effected negatively by any of the new PSW inverters out there. Most of the old inverter powered items problems were due to MSW (Modified Square Wave) designs. Some LED lights however are known to pulse with use of a PSW inverter supply.

Yes NG bonding is safety for everyone and every thing. That should be written on the box, the outside of the inverter, and on the inside next to the load connections. Thats another conversation of how safety stickers need to be added. The MSW can cause issues. When using an inverter, you can sometimes hear dirty power in stereos. Most of that is from bad grounds. On occasion that dirty power increases or decreases amperage so much that it causes issues. Resistors can heat up and pop as voltage drops. The suck in too much amperage which increases heat. Other components also disregard voltage to balance current x voltage = wattage. Dirty power causes so many issues. I feel this community has a collective physical understanding of the equipment that they are talking about here.

 

[edrivas411]

You're asking a lot. Nobody that I know of has gone out there and bought every major inverter and tested it.

No but the thousands in this community have a randomized experience with different inverters. That knowledge can help myself and others make an informed decision over flashy advertising on a box.

 

[Mops9]

Interesting discussion as I catch up. My use case is a purest power for my high end audio system. Various ways to achieve (and lots of discussions in the audio forums). However, I heard also that some Tesla owners with a Tesla wall battery think there multi hundred thousand system sounds better on battery. Hence my inquiry.

Does anybody here was "hearing" differences between inverter-grid or different inverters?

Also, does for example a 3kw Victron inverter have a larger impedance than a 5kw at the same load? How about THD of these two models for example at ~1kw? any difference?

check also this

THD (Total Harmonics Distortion) vs Power reserve - VictronEnergy

communityarchive.victronenergy.com

Battery Power For Audio - EcoFlow Pro

Thank you so much for this post - I found it while I was going through a TONNE of issues (McIntosh / Sonus Faber and a hum). Yours (and a few others) led me down this path to clean power. THIS WORKS. This is my post to call out that Power Conditioners are snake oil and that these solutions work (...

audiophilestyle.com

Much appreciated!
Tom

 

[Brucey]

Interesting discussion as I catch up. My use case is a purest power for my high end audio system. Various ways to achieve (and lots of discussions in the audio forums). However, I heard also that some Tesla owners with a Tesla wall battery think there multi hundred thousand system sounds better on battery. Hence my inquiry.

Does anybody here was "hearing" differences between inverter-grid or different inverters?

check also this

THD (Total Harmonics Distortion) vs Power reserve - VictronEnergy

communityarchive.victronenergy.com

Battery Power For Audio - EcoFlow Pro

Thank you so much for this post - I found it while I was going through a TONNE of issues (McIntosh / Sonus Faber and a hum). Yours (and a few others) led me down this path to clean power. THIS WORKS. This is my post to call out that Power Conditioners are snake oil and that these solutions work (...

audiophilestyle.com

Much appreciated!
Tom

An online double conversion system using a bunch of morningstar suresine inverters is prob the way to go. Completely passive, maybe a tiny bit of transformer hum, completely decouple from the grid. Charge with Telecom rectifiers or chargeverters but latter prob too loud for indoors if ultimately sound quality is a factor.

To clear the mind of doubt can be powerful in its own way for audio perception.

 

[Brucey]

check also this

When I moved from ungrounded amps to grounded (three pin), specifically some speakerpower subwoofer plate amps, I immediately had a loud 60Hz hum. Ultimate fix was to lift the ground on the plate amps, back to blissful silence. Not too worried as I don't handle them in the basement while standing barefoot in a pool of water.

 

[Q-Dog]

I've dealt with lots of hum and video distortion in audio and video editing bays over the years. Most of the time it was due to ground loops and/or linking components together that were powered from different legs of the building power.

Digital components don't seem to be as affected by ground loops.

 

[Mops9]

An online double conversion system using a bunch of morningstar suresine inverters is prob the way to go. Completely passive, maybe a tiny bit of transformer hum, completely decouple from the grid. Charge with Telecom rectifiers or chargeverters but latter prob too loud for indoors if ultimately sound quality is a factor.

To clear the mind of doubt can be powerful in its own way for audio perception.

what do you mean with "double"? DC -> AC -> DC and back to AC or DC -> DC -> AC?

I looked at the Morningstar sure sine and it looks very good, however, the 2500w is outofstock and not clear when it comes back.

Regarding charging, its always possible to disconnect the charger from AC ;-)

 

[Brucey]

what do you mean with "double"? DC -> AC -> DC and back to AC or DC -> DC -> AC?

I looked at the Morningstar sure sine and it looks very good, however, the 2500w is outofstock and not clear when it comes back.

Regarding charging, its always possible to disconnect the charger from AC ;-)

I mean the ac is charging the battery and the inverter is always running off battery.

Yes for critical listening can disconnect grid.

 

[Mops9]

Thanks. Yes, my thinking too. For simplicity and performance I would like a separate charger and inverter:
a) I can disconnect charger easy
b) As Inverter I was looking at a Morningstar PureSine 2500w or Exeltech XP 2000w (each with 48V)
c) Battery would be build based on links here

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