Clean your terminals.

[hclarkx]

I had a high resistance connection which resulted from a grain of sand stuck under the bus bar. Go figure!

This is why electrical workers are trained to never use sandpaper around electrical contact surfaces of any kind. Grit from sandpaper is not conductive and WILL get embedded in almost any material ...... and especially will embed in aluminum which is soft. As such it will tend to separate the contacting surfaces with an insulator. The proper tool for cleaning or conditioning relay contacts and electrical contacting surfaces like our LiFePO4 cell terminals is a "burnishing file." This type of file does not remove much material as does a conventional file. It will leave nothing behind other than possibly some small removed particles of aluminum. If I were using a compound like NoaLox I would burnish "dry" first then burnish again with NoaLox on the file and terminal (buy a two-pack). Clean the compound off the file after processing each terminal.

 

[Substrate]

Sure enough. And I use NoAlox properly just as a safe measure - because we have the luxury of doing so.

I'm trying to cover all bases too, since I don't actually KNOW what grade of aluminum is used with my cells or busbars. And I'm using a multiplicity of metals, not just aluminum and copper. Throw stainless and generic steel eyelets into the mix. If I move to a damp/humid location, I don't have to worry so much either.

But this is so good, I'll link it again here about NOT having to use NoAlox (but under certain conditions you may want to!)

So, use it - or don't. Not the end of the world.

 

[hclarkx]

Interesting! I wonder if the newer aluminum compounds that he references have solved the "cold flow" problem that existed back in the 60's and maybe since.

 

[JoeHam]

Regarding cost, Ox-Guard is $3.48 on Amazon.

I’m frugal as all get out but consider that affordable. ?

 

[Hedges]

Still waiting for the person who claimed that LiFePO4 battery terminals are "special", requiring special cleaning formulas, to explain why.

I think they are special because they are bare aluminum (probably pure).
I've never seen bare aluminum as electrical conductor in anything UL listed, except as wire.
The wire either needs special treatment, or gets a crimp terminal that breaks the oxide and makes a gas-tight seal.
All the other components are tin-plated aluminum.

These batteries aren't listed or certified by any recognized agency, and they aren't being used as the manufacturer intended. Busbars or terminals were supposed to be attached by welding. For the DIY and other markets, these B grade cells are having terminals drilled by back-alley machinists.
The qualification tests are being performed in the field, perhaps under your bed or on the wall of your house.

Applying the methods which have worked for bare aluminum wire seems like the minimum to consider.
That may not be a special cleaning formula, but it would include an appropriate sealant/corrosion inhibitor.

 

[Sanwizard]

My first comment in this thread questioned whether the "special" commercial formulas that were being touted offered anything that standard cleaners don't.

The first response was from someone who effectively claimed that LiFePO4 terminals require these special liquids because they are somehow different from lead acid terminals. I see that nobody is in a hurry to repeat that claim.

Now you say that isopropyl alcohol and a clean sponge works fine. No kidding.

Nice to see that after two pages we're in the real world.

Lead acid terminals are typically lead, not aluminum.

 

[mrdavvv]

To clean my terminals I initially tried acetone. It didn't work. So I ordered some nail files and used them. After sanding them down, I used a vac cleaner to remove the dust from the terminals and around the cells. Then I used acetone to clean any remaining particles from the terminals. I know acetone does not leave a residue. The aluminum terminals are relatively soft so it doesn't require much sanding to clean them off.

I have not applied any corrosion inhibitor but I will when I rebuild my pack. I believe it helps with electrical connections as it's supposed to be conductive when applied sparingly. I have thought about using MG chemicals carbon conductive paste but I don't know there would be any difference between using that and NO-OX-ID.

Regarding the busbars people generally receive with these cells, mine had slight burrs on one side. The holes are stamped out so it's a good idea to check them and sand off the burrs.

I am attaching a photo of one of my cell terminals before I sanded them. The gunk was mostly on the negative terminals and I think it was some kind of tape residue.

I have the same dilemma Gazoo!, use Noalox / oxgard or the No-ox-id!

I think both are fine, they all prevent corrosion. The NO-OX its supposed to be a low viscosity material, so when you press together the 2 metal parts, the contact points end up with a very thin layer of the stuff, so it doesn't affect conductivity but protects against corrosion. Some users even recommend melting it a little bit so it can penetrate the pores better.

A lot of people swear by the NO-OX, so im inclined to that side, but still not sure...

This is why electrical workers are trained to never use sandpaper around electrical contact surfaces of any kind. Grit from sandpaper is not conductive and WILL get embedded in almost any material ...... and especially will embed in aluminum which is soft. As such it will tend to separate the contacting surfaces with an insulator. The proper tool for cleaning or conditioning relay contacts and electrical contacting surfaces like our LiFePO4 cell terminals is a "burnishing file." This type of file does not remove much material as does a conventional file. It will leave nothing behind other than possibly some small removed particles of aluminum. If I were using a compound like NoaLox I would burnish "dry" first then burnish again with NoaLox on the file and terminal (buy a two-pack). Clean the compound off the file after processing each terminal.

Interesting, could you link or recomend a good burnishing file?.

What do you think about the scotch brite method?

 

[Gazoo]

I have the same dilemma Gazoo!, use Noalox / oxgard or the No-ox-id!

I think both are fine, they all prevent corrosion. The NO-OX its supposed to be a low viscosity material, so when you press together the 2 metal parts, the contact points end up with a very thin layer of the stuff, so it doesn't affect conductivity but protects against corrosion. Some users even recommend melting it a little bit so it can penetrate the pores better.

A lot of people swear by the NO-OX, so im inclined to that side, but still not sure...

Hi mrdavvv,

Funny I was just thinking of you watching the other thread. I thought about making a joke about the JunTek but that would have been off topic, as I have now done it here...lol.

Honestly I have no idea if one corrosion inhibitor is better that the other. Most people that use things are going to swear by what they use. I have never used anything on anything. But some of the manufacturers claim their product improves conductivity. If you were to place meter probes in a jar of any of these (except maybe the carbon conductive paste) there would be no measured conductivity. But when a very thin layer is applied conductivity is improved. That's what they say and some reviews support that.

My cells are in my living space which is climate controlled so I don't need to worry about corrosion. If conductivity can be improved then that would be great....not that I am having any problems currently.

 

[hclarkx]

I have the same dilemma Gazoo!, use Noalox / oxgard or the No-ox-id!

I think both are fine, they all prevent corrosion. The NO-OX its supposed to be a low viscosity material, so when you press together the 2 metal parts, the contact points end up with a very thin layer of the stuff, so it doesn't affect conductivity but protects against corrosion. Some users even recommend melting it a little bit so it can penetrate the pores better.

A lot of people swear by the NO-OX, so im inclined to that side, but still not sure...



Interesting, could you link or recomend a good burnishing file?.

What do you think about the scotch brite method?

Search Amazon for "burnishing files" and several options will come up. Mine are older than dirt but look very much like the ones I see on Amazon. Scotch brite is made of plastic fibers embedded with Aluminum oxide (alumina) or Titanium dioxide or similar as the abrasive. It's probably better than sand paper but I personally would avoid it.

About the earlier post of the electrician explaining modern aluminum compounds and their resistance to oxidation. I got to wondering if the aluminum terminals in our cells are really a modern aluminum or just near-pure aluminum. They seem awfully soft to be a compound..

 

[Deleted member 23531]

I used Ox-Gard bought at a local ACE hardware for very little money, scrubbed vigorously with green 3m scotch brite. It works well and I have measured negligible voltage drop comparing the cell terminals to the bus bars. It’s also inexpensive, and at least one person on this forum commented that it is required for professional installations connecting aluminum in humid climates. I haven’t independently verified that claim.

 

[JoeHam]

The red scotch brite is aluminum oxide FWIW.

Amazon.com: Lot of 5 Red 3M Scuff Pads Scotch Brite 3M Brand: Automotive

Buy Lot of 5 Red 3M Scuff Pads Scotch Brite 3M Brand: Buffing & Polishing Pads - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

 

[Bleedingblue]

What's the factual, scientific evidence for this claim?

In particular, what are the proven benefits over baking soda, isopropyl alcohol or other cleaners that have been used on battery terminals for decades?

Earlier in this thread, the claim was made that this stuff is needed for LiFePO4 terminals because they aren't lead acid terminals. Why is that?

How much money, exactly, are you paying for this stuff?

I never heard of the stuff but a very quick search and I found it at lowes, Amazon etc for $3.00. Yes thats right 3 bucks.

Amazon.com

 

[Bleedingblue]

I'd like to add that I emailed EVE and asked about the proper procedure to clean and install busbars.
I will post it here if I get a response back. I've sent out a lot of emails to various companies over the last few months and rarely do I ever get a response back.

 

[jwelter99]

Use a fiberglass scratch pen. Works great and not overly abrasive. I use a bit of isopropyl and the scratch brush, then paint terminal with NoOx and put cleaned bus bar down and torque.

Amazon.com

 

[Gazoo]

I'd like to add that I emailed EVE and asked about the proper procedure to clean and install busbars.
I will post it here if I get a response back. I've sent out a lot of emails to various companies over the last few months and rarely do I ever get a response back.

I'd like to add why? I don't believe EVE will have anything magical to add other than what has been recommended and discussed on this forum. In fact they might say there is no cleaning of the terminals required but that would be if the cells were bought directly from them. That's if you get a reply.

The amount of terminal cleaning and what needs to be used varies depending on the condition of cells terminals when received. My terminals were fairly dirty. If I had ordered directly from EVE the terminals would have been pristine. I have not seen any method posted that isn't effective. The key is to not do any more cleaning than is necessary and don't deform the terminals tops in the process.

Having said that when contacting manufactures it's best to act as if you are ordering the cells directly from them. That was how I approached EVE and I did receive a reply.

I apologize for my slight rant but if I am going to approach a manufacturer it will be about the unknowns of the cell.

 

[Leon]

Won't EVE just recommend laser welding to connect bus bars?

 

[mrdavvv]

Hi mrdavvv,

Funny I was just thinking of you watching the other thread. I thought about making a joke about the JunTek but that would have been off topic, as I have now done it here...lol.

Hello Juntek bro!, good thing offtopic isnt that frowned uppon around here

Honestly I have no idea if one corrosion inhibitor is better that the other. Most people that use things are going to swear by what they use. I have never used anything on anything. But some of the manufacturers claim their product improves conductivity. If you were to place meter probes in a jar of any of these (except maybe the carbon conductive paste) there would be no measured conductivity. But when a very thin layer is applied conductivity is improved. That's what they say and some reviews support that.

My cells are in my living space which is climate controlled so I don't need to worry about corrosion. If conductivity can be improved then that would be great....not that I am having any problems currently.

Yeah i saw a whole post with several pages of people talking about the same, without any clear answers or consensus, maybe you were there too

I guess if the objective is to reduce / avoid the formation of the aluminum oxide layer (After sanding).... any of them could work, you just need to reduce the exposure to oxygen.... however, im guessing the oxide layer forms almost instantly, so its probably a matter of how thick it becomes before you place the isolation agent. If we find something that can achieve this, and also be conductive at the same time... well im sold!

Have you ever try a high discharge test?... my system its also under a conditioned space... tough my battery was pretty fine, until i connected the microwave, the washing machine and other loads... the voltage drop was too much and the system shuted off.... main suspect the conductivity of busbars under high amperage; but still not sure, haven't checked in detail.

So far im thinking in doing a little polish with an aluminum oxide sandpaper (sponge format), then placing very rapidly the NO-ox-id, and finally the busbar with a decent torque. But need to read more about this!

 

[Supervstech]

Hello Juntek bro!, good thing offtopic isnt that frowned uppon around here



Yeah i saw a whole post with several pages of people talking about the same, without any clear answers or consensus, maybe you were there too

I guess if the objective is to reduce / avoid the formation of the aluminum oxide layer (After sanding).... any of them could work, you just need to reduce the exposure to oxygen.... however, im guessing the oxide layer forms almost instantly, so its probably a matter of how thick it becomes before you place the isolation agent. If we find something that can achieve this, and also be conductive at the same time... well im sold!

Have you ever try a high discharge test?... my system its also under a conditioned space... tough my battery was pretty fine, until i connected the microwave, the washing machine and other loads... the voltage drop was too much and the system shuted off.... main suspect the conductivity of busbars under high amperage; but still not sure, haven't checked in detail.

So far im thinking in doing a little polish with an aluminum oxide sandpaper (sponge format), then placing very rapidly the NO-ox-id, and finally the busbar with a decent torque. But need to read more about this!

The problem with sandpaper is the sand... any particles will insulate the connection.

I recommend stainless steel brushing the connections with mineral oil on the terminals, wipe it off with a paper towel, and a thin coating of noalox, or similar grease to prevent oxidative coating reoccurring...

 

[JoeHam]

I’m leery of adding sand or steel to the mix.

The red Scotch Brite pads use aluminum oxide as an abrasive :

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MBPT0F8

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I don't believe EVE will have anything magical to add other than what has been recommended and discussed on this forum. In fact they might say there is no cleaning of the terminals required but that would be if the cells were bought directly from them.

They would probably just say to read the datasheet, where it states:

9.3.9 Connection
a) Polishing the pole with abrasive paper before use, otherwise it would cause bad contact or
failure