Clean your terminals.

[reg]

That was a weak apology ...

Moving on.

I apologised for comments that confused you with a person that uses the same avatar.

I don't apologise for saying that you couldn't be arsed to at least skim the thread, or for not realising that there's no effing difference, as a matter of common sense, between cleaning a terminal and a busbar.

Looking forward to you apologising for attacking me for being a New Yorker, which also has no basis in fact

I did get a kick from this thread from being reminded of Rod Serling, a name that hadn't crossed my mind for a long time. Who will this forum remind me of next from that era? Paddy Chayefsky?

 

[reg]

AntiOxidant - NoAlox, Penetrox - what, a couple of bucks at your local home improvement store?

So nothing fancy, but the benefits are well worth it in the long run.

What's the factual, scientific evidence for this claim?

In particular, what are the proven benefits over baking soda, isopropyl alcohol or other cleaners that have been used on battery terminals for decades?

Earlier in this thread, the claim was made that this stuff is needed for LiFePO4 terminals because they aren't lead acid terminals. Why is that?

How much money, exactly, are you paying for this stuff?

 

[Substrate]

Ok.
But just a related question....doesn't all this also apply to busbars?

I mean, aren't bus bars connected to terminals? Just sayin.

Yes, especially to bus-bars. Just a light coat will do. No need to go into the sides of the holes.

I know it sounds so nerdish. It shows up later. Even if connection are tight. BMS is balancing a lot more than it used to. Maybe even if you take an inexpensive IR-thermometer pointer (same home improvement store purchase) and notice that one of the terminals is 5 degrees hotter than all the others...

As a DIY, with minimal cost and easy availability, we can help *prevent* issues before they become a problem.

 

[reg]

Yes, especially to bus-bars. Just a light coat will do. No need to go into the sides of the holes.

I know it sounds so nerdish. It shows up later. Even if connection are tight. BMS is balancing a lot more than it used to. Maybe even if you take an inexpensive IR-thermometer pointer (same home improvement store purchase) and notice that one of the terminals is 5 degrees hotter than all the others...

As a DIY, with minimal cost and easy availability, we can help *prevent* issues before they become a problem.

Give us actual evidence that this isn't just LiFePO4 enthusiast Voodoo.

 

[Substrate]

What's the factual, scientific evidence for this claim?

In particular, what are the proven benefits over baking soda, isopropyl alcohol or other cleaners that have been used on battery terminals for decades?

Earlier in this thread, the claim was made that this stuff is needed for LiFePO4 terminals because they aren't lead acid terminals. Why is that?

How much money, exactly, are you paying for this stuff?

Ok, no problem, lets go through it...

You want to use a cleaner that does NOT leave any residue behind. Isopropyl alcohol will do fine. Plastic dishwashing sponge (clean an no soap) for scrub. Antioxidant from home improvement store. Couple of bucks.

The need is that corrosion and oxidation can cause very small voltage drops. BUT, even a .05v drop on one terminal due to oxidation or dissimilar metal corrosion can cause balance issues which the bms is now trying to correct all the time.

In a worst-case, it can turn into considerable heat with large current draws and loosens the connections, which is obviously really bad.

Honest - no voodoo. Dis-simiilar metal problems is the very reason you find cheap tubes of this goo at home-improvement stores, where old houses with aluminum wiring are frequently connected to modern circuits with copper wiring.

The example is that people used to start fires vacuuming or using deep-fryers with dis-similar metal connections. Hence the anti-oxidant goo when they typically crimp those metals together.

On a personal level, I've fixed a few diy banks of my own after a few years of "I'll get around to it later", when the bms started to go into endless balancing on cells that I had previously tested as good.

After a clean, wham - no more bms over-activity.

 

[Just John]

Not a word about baking soda and water, vinegar or Coca-Cola?

Baking soda makes sense using a lead acid battery, since it has acid fumes, and perhaps spilled acid. These are sealed cells and won't have any spilled acid or acid fumes (if they do, you have worse problems). Vinegar, I don't know why you would use that. Coca-Cola? Why would anyone want sugar coated sticky battery terminals?

How on earth do people get by without the products that people in this thread are talking about, which I imagine well over 99% of the world's population has never heard of?

If you are speaking of Ox-Gard, NoAlox, etc, they aren't to clean your terminals, they are to protect the aluminum from oxidizing. You can scoff all you like, galvanic corrosion is real, it's the same process that makes a battery work. Most people have never had to deal with an electrical connection that combines copper and aluminum.

 

[Just John]

Give us actual evidence that this isn't just LiFePO4 enthusiast Voodoo.

The statue of liberty, for one.

Galvanic corrosion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[reg]

Ok, no problem, lets go through it...

You want to use a cleaner that does NOT leave any residue behind. Isopropyl alcohol will do fine. Plastic dishwashing sponge (clean an no soap) for scrub. Antioxidant from home improvement store. Couple of bucks.

My first comment in this thread questioned whether the "special" commercial formulas that were being touted offered anything that standard cleaners don't.

The first response was from someone who effectively claimed that LiFePO4 terminals require these special liquids because they are somehow different from lead acid terminals. I see that nobody is in a hurry to repeat that claim.

Now you say that isopropyl alcohol and a clean sponge works fine. No kidding.

Nice to see that after two pages we're in the real world.

 

[Just John]

My first comment in this thread questioned whether the "special" commercial formulas that were being touted offered anything that standard cleaners don't.

The first response was from someone who effectively claimed that LiFePO4 terminals require these special liquids because they are somehow different from lead acid terminals. I see that nobody is in a hurry to repeat that claim.

Now you say that isopropyl alcohol and a clean sponge works fine. No kidding.

Nice to see that after two pages we're in the real world.

No, the "special" feature is NOT a cleaner, it is to prevent oxidation.

Oxidation[edit]​

Most metals (with a few exceptions, such as gold) oxidize freely when exposed to air. Aluminium oxide is not an electrical conductor, but rather an electrical insulator. Consequently, the flow of electrons through the oxide layer can be greatly impeded. However, since the oxide layer is only a few nanometers thick, the added resistance is not noticeable under most conditions. When aluminum wire is terminated properly, the mechanical connection breaks the thin, brittle layer of oxide to form an excellent electrical connection. Unless this connection is loosened, there is no way for oxygen to penetrate the connection point to form further oxide.

Some of us have ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with the problem.

Aluminum building wiring - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In North American residential construction, aluminum wire was used for wiring entire houses for a short time from the 1960s to the mid-1970s during a period of high copper prices. Electrical devices (outlets, switches, lighting, fans, etc.) at the time were not designed with the particular properties of the aluminum wire being used in mind, and there were some issues related to the properties of the wire itself, making the installations with aluminum wire much more susceptible to problems. Revised manufacturing standards for both the wire and the devices were developed to reduce the problems. Existing homes with this older aluminum wiring used in branch circuits present a potential fire hazard.

 

[Substrate]

Unfortunately nobody at this point is going to take us seriously and wave us off as nerd-bickering.

Manufacturers especially.

The only solution is for Will to do a test and produce a video. On a 4-year old diy batt..

 

[reg]

No, the "special" feature is NOT a cleaner, it is to prevent oxidation.

I guess you missed the title of this thread: Clean Your Terminals

Seeing as how you've decided to redefine what this thread is about, I'm now waiting for one of the proponents of these magic liquids to explain why LiFePO4 terminals apparently need rescue from oxidation in a way that is somehow different from lead acid terminals.

Myself, I figure that anti-oxidants aren't a new invention special to LiFePO4 terminals. I hate to mention other compounds that have been used for the same purpose for decades. They don't have fancy names, and they cost next to nothing.

Still waiting for one of you to say what these products that you're touting do cost, and what objective, scientific evidence there is to support the factual claims that you make for them.

 

[Just John]

Unfortunately nobody at this point is going to take us seriously and wave us off as nerd-bickering.

Manufacturers especially.

The only solution is for Will to do a test and produce a video. On a 4-year old diy batt..

I can tell you that two houses in Florida humidity both had serious issues with aluminum wiring. I live in the desert (like Will), and doubt it is a big problem. My personal experience says about 5 years and you will need to clean the connections in a high humidity environment.

 

[reg]

I can tell you that two houses in Florida humidity both had serious issues with aluminum wiring. I live in the desert (like Will), and doubt it is a big problem. My personal experience says about 5 years and you will need to clean the connections in a high humidity environment.

Good Lord, anybody who lives next to water knows that one has to clean electrical connections to avoid corrosion, and that it's less of an issue in Arizona ... or for that matter in any other extremely dry area, such as the Arctic. That's why Egypt has Mummies thousands of years later.

How do we get from that idea to buying special liquids to clean LiFePO4 battery terminals?

I'll ask for the umpteenth time... Why do LiFePO4 battery terminals need these special liquids, but lead acid battery terminals don't, and how much are you paying for these special liquids?

 

[Substrate]

I guess you missed the title of this thread: Clean Your Terminals

Seeing as how you've decided to redefine what this thread is about, I'm now waiting for one of the proponents of these magic liquids to explain why LiFePO4 terminals apparently need rescue from oxidation in a way that is somehow different from lead acid terminals.

Myself, I figure that anti-oxidants aren't a new invention special to LiFePO4 terminals. I hate to mention other compounds that have been used for the same purpose for decades. They don't have fancy names, and they cost next to nothing.

Still waiting for one of you to say what these products that you're touting do cost, and what objective, scientific evidence there is to support the factual claims that you make for them.

You figure right!

Use whatever you have that leaves no residue. Check.
Use whatever you have to prevent oxidation. Noalox, Penetrox are just two well known brands. Check.

Another real-world example is again a trip to the home improvement store: instead of a tube of goo, there are crimp connectors that have it already inside - and that is just for TWO metals - aluminum & copper together. Our batteries may include aluminum, nickel, copper, stainless, and even plain steel.

The reasons for not allowing these time-accumulating problems introduce voltage drop, which affects overall balance and charge with LFP have been explained. High current, melts and other mayhem when you go big.

And YES, the same precautions apply to all battery systems if one is wise. Lead acid included. Especially if you are using bus-bars to parallel stuff.

All it takes a simple light swipe of the finger on the flat surfaces. Done. No mess, no specialty stuff. Pays off later.

 

[Just John]

My first comment in this thread questioned whether the "special" commercial formulas that were being touted offered anything that standard cleaners don't.

The first response was from someone who effectively claimed that LiFePO4 terminals require these special liquids because they are somehow different from lead acid terminals. I see that nobody is in a hurry to repeat that claim.

Now you say that isopropyl alcohol and a clean sponge works fine. No kidding.

Nice to see that after two pages we're in the real world.

I went back and looked at the first two pages of this thread, other than talking about cleaning terminals (by various techniques) and sometimes using alcohol, you're the first person to bring up "special cleaning fluids because LiFePO4 is different". It has aluminum terminals, that's what is different. It's not a cleaning fluid, it's a corrosion inhibitor. You clean the corrosion, then you inhibit it from starting by contact with the air.

 

[reg]

I went back and looked at the first two pages of this thread, other than talking about cleaning terminals (by various techniques) and sometimes using alcohol, you're the first person to bring up "special cleaning fluids because LiFePO4 is different". It has aluminum terminals, that's what is different. It's not a cleaning fluid, it's a corrosion inhibitor. You clean the corrosion, then you inhibit it from starting by contact with the air.

I guess you missed, for example, post #20 at the end of page 1, and post #21 and #22 at the top of page 2.

Since when do LiFePO4 batteries all have aluminium terminals?

The fact is, the title of this thread is "Clean Your Terminals". I don't care what you call this magic juice, people have been cleaning terminals and inhibiting corrosion for a long time. Personally, I have better things to do than try to turn this into a linguistic game.

I'm still waiting for answers to a couple of simple questions. What scientific evidence is there for the claims that these products are superior to methods of cleaning that have been used for decades? If you now want to claim that they are superior as corrosion inhibitors instead, go for it. Where's the evidence?

Also, how much does this special juice cost? As you can see from the screen capture below, I first asked that question 34 posts ago. I've asked many times since. Still no answer.

While we're at it, what exactly is in these products, or is it a secret?

Post #21 and #22:

 

[Just John]

I guess you missed, for example, post #20 at the end of page 1, and post #21 and #22 at the top of page 2.

Since when do LiFePO4 batteries all have aluminium terminals?

The fact is, the title of this thread is "Clean Your Terminals". I don't care what you call this magic juice, people have been cleaning terminals and inhibiting corrosion for a long time. Personally, I have better things to do than try to turn this into a linguistic game.

I'm still waiting for answers to a couple of simple questions. What scientific evidence is there for the claims that these products are superior to methods of cleaning that have been used for decades? If you now want to claim that they are superior as corrosion inhibitors instead, go for it. Where's the evidence?

Also, how much does this special juice cost? As you can see from the screen capture below, I first asked that question 34 posts ago. I've asked many times since. Still no answer.

While we're at it, what exactly is in these products, or is it a secret?

Post #21 and #22:

View attachment 47347

https://www.amazon.com/Gardner-Bender-OX-100B-Anti-Oxidant-Compound/dp/B000BODU66

This is the outrageously expensive secret formula I used. It's no secret.

This is the diy storage area. We aren't talking about the terminals on a sealed plastic box.

"Since when do LiFePO4 batteries all have aluminium terminals?"

Really?

You probably want this section:

Beginner Friendly "Plug-n-Play" Lithium Batteries

Battleborn, Ruixu, Simpliphi, Kilovault, Trillium, Renogy and more!

diysolarforum.com

 

[Gazoo]

To clean my terminals I initially tried acetone. It didn't work. So I ordered some nail files and used them. After sanding them down, I used a vac cleaner to remove the dust from the terminals and around the cells. Then I used acetone to clean any remaining particles from the terminals. I know acetone does not leave a residue. The aluminum terminals are relatively soft so it doesn't require much sanding to clean them off.

I have not applied any corrosion inhibitor but I will when I rebuild my pack. I believe it helps with electrical connections as it's supposed to be conductive when applied sparingly. I have thought about using MG chemicals carbon conductive paste but I don't know there would be any difference between using that and NO-OX-ID.

Regarding the busbars people generally receive with these cells, mine had slight burrs on one side. The holes are stamped out so it's a good idea to check them and sand off the burrs.

I am attaching a photo of one of my cell terminals before I sanded them. The gunk was mostly on the negative terminals and I think it was some kind of tape residue.

 

[Just John]

To clean my terminals I initially tried acetone. It didn't work. So I ordered some nail files and used them. After sanding them down, I used a vac cleaner to remove the dust from the terminals and around the cells. Then I used acetone to clean any remaining particles from the terminals. I know acetone does not leave a residue. The aluminum terminals are relatively soft so it doesn't require much sanding to clean them off.

I have not applied any corrosion inhibitor but I will when I rebuild my pack. I believe it helps with electrical connections as it's supposed to be conductive when applied sparingly. I have thought about using MG chemicals carbon conductive paste but I don't know there would be any difference between using that and NO-OX-ID.

Regarding the busbars people generally receive with these cells, mine had slight burrs on one side. The holes are stamped out so it's a good idea to check them and sand off the burrs.

I am attaching a photo of one of my cell terminals before I sanded them. The gunk was mostly on the negative terminals and I think it was some kind of tape residue.

I'm just guessing, but I thought the residue left on my terminals was glue or adhesive from the manufacturing. I suspect (but don't know) that they use glue to get the aluminum and plastic to bond.
I used the wire brush attachment from my Dremel to clean off the same residue on my terminals. (Don't "grind away", the objective is to have a perfectly smooth, flat, and CLEAN surface).
Followed that up with the felt buffer pad and alcohol on my Dremel (I'm lazy).

I ordered some aluminum busbars like @Off-Grid-Garage used, I'll try them out soon (just received them yesterday).

 

[Substrate]

Yep, although in most instances one doesn't have to go to that extreme of sanding/brushing.

Speaking of busbars, I've seen them doubled-up on top of each other, like two thin nickel-plated types. Pulling those apart after a few years revealed what time, oxygen, and moisture does. And they are similar metals!

This is just a way to avoid any additional resistance in your connections. For many with trivial loads, this will be hidden by the bms anyway working harder than it should later down the road.

I'm pretty sure that most of us associate cleaning your terminals also meant what immediate connections are placed upon them like busbars and other infrastructure. I'm sorry if that caused confusion.

Consider picking up an inexpensive IR handheld thermometer with laser-pointer which you can pick up at the same home improvement store where you got your antioxidant to do a baseline measurement when your load is active. Then later in the year when you point to your terminals and other connections, you have a reference of what temps you originally started with, and can spot potential problems down the road before they become issues.