Complete Off-Grid House - 3000 sqft Ranch - Michigan

[ksmithaz1]

unintentional, but it is what it is. these days women are the casue of most divorces, and men are the victims in 99.9% of the cases. lately it has turned around as far as the legal issues, but it is still rough on a man who is honest and faithful... the I got bored does not work any more for a male, then it does for a female...

This is so true. This 'believe all women' crap has got to go. 'Girls lie too'. And it takes TWO to tango. If you want to play games either bring the receipts or STFU. These attitudes are slowly starting to shift. People are people, and Shakespeare wrote about it, and it's in the bible, and painted on the walls of prehistory.

 

[ksmithaz1]

All that being said. "I'm sorry, I know its not a good time, unfortunately, I need to know who I should talk to who can resolve the financial issues involved around the work I contracted that is not going to be completed." Polite and forceful.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

All that being said. "I'm sorry, I know its not a good time, unfortunately, I need to know who I should talk to who can resolve the financial issues involved around the work I contracted that is not going to be completed." Polite and forceful.

yep polite, professional facts laid out up front. he should have had some form of insurance for his company that covers failure to complete work etc. thats what I would be aiming at.

 

[Tommytwotone]

@Daddy Tanuki - Thank you for the many points! Having said that, there is a lot of information in the last 21-pages and I hope the forum recognizes how open I've been to taking feedback and adjusting my plans.

As noted, I have a few critical constraints:

• Space - The supermajority of my property is classified as a preserve, leaving me a small parcel to 1) Build a House and 2) Build everything else I need (Pole Barn, Solar, etc.).
• Diesel - Literally makes me ill to smell. No bueno and not a viable solution.

With that said, I've acknowledged the following:

• Generator - Must have and will be powered using propane
• Load Calculations - Necessary and I will calculate them (FYI - I'm an Engineer by background, I understand these calcs but just needed someone who has experience doing these projects to point out what I need to worry about vs. not).
• Demand & Usage - I have conceded numerous times that the numbers I've calculated are highly skewed based on the HVAC system which is sized currently at 5-Tons per the HVAC company; however, these numbers are a pure guestimate considering that my floor plan is not yet complete and they haven't been able to do a formal analysis to determine how much I really need.

==> Therefore, we will adjust as required once the floor plan gets ironed out and the HVAC analysis is performed.

Until then, I work with the calculations I have - get a great education from the gurus on here - and come up with a plan which would then be modified once the final numbers are in-hand.

The flow currently is: Panel Design (vs. real-estate) ==> Battery Design (vs. where it will be located) ==> Inverters (location) ==> Connections (sizing, quantities, etc.)

I really appreciate everyone's help!

Have you considered anthracite in a boiler like AHS? We have an all electric home with 60,000kwh annual usage (not using coal). Propane is around $1.95 pre buy around here and coal is cheaper and can be bought by the truckload, in 40lb bags for a little less even. Use the boiler to provide under floor heat as well as, if you like, backup heat with a heat pump/air handler system. Run the heat pump when solar allows and boiler only when it does not.
If your propane is $8 per gallon 100million btuh would cost $10,000 vs $2200 for the same output in hard coal.

 

[Leo Davies]

As shown in the diagram above, my pitch on the pole barn is a little over 4:12 (4.08:12) and thus yields an angle of 18.77deg. The install would use angled brackets @ 45deg to bring the total angle to 63.77deg.

@OzSolar - I don't want to confuse the pole barn with the house, but the house is 3000 sqft and I was told by an HVAC estimator that I'd need a 5-Ton GEO unit which would consume 20,420 kWh per year. The EV will get charged about 2x per week.

My house is a little smaller than yours and had a 2 ton AC unit that I just had replaced with another 2 ton unit. The second floor does not get cooled as well as it should. The AC Company that just replaced the AC unit told me that the ducts and lack of return air ducts on an old house like mine will never have efficient cooling on the second floor without upgrading to a much larger AC unit or redoing the ductwork. He told me to keep the two window units we have that work really well in keeping the upstairs cool.

 

[Over9000]

Alright folks - I just got the finished architecture plans from my new architect and am revisiting calculations because now I have to get my "site plan" approved by the county. There's a bunch of bullshit setbacks I have to deal with, but in short, I need to find a way to achieve my 3714 kWh / month target. (Note: Since Electric heat is approximately 1702 kWh out of that total, one of my next steps is having the take-off analysis done by an HVAC professional in order to size my unit and get a better understanding of the real load requirements for my house).

Consider the following factors:

• 100% ground-mount, 85 degree pitch
• Constraint is 70' long x 45' deep for the solar field

Here's where I need the help:

• Which panels should I really be considering? The best ones I found are:
  • Risen / Mono / RSM132-8-720-740BHDG
  • Hanerson / Bifacial / HN21H-66HT 730W
  • Seraphim / Mono / SRP-720-BHC-BG
  • Trina Solar / Bifacial / TSM-NEG21C.20 720W
  • Thornova / Bifacial / TS-BGT66-G12 720W (or BW-series)
  • Canadian Solar / Bifacial / CS7N-720TB-AG
• Regarding racks, my understanding is that I can't stack more than (2) panels in "Portrait" orientation.
  • Most of these panels are 94" in length x 52" in width
  • (70 ft x 12 in / 52 in) = ~15 panels in portrait per 70 feet
  • Double high would be 30 panels. Factoring in a 7' pole (height from the ground), I'm looking at 7' + 94" + 94" = 22.6' tall (lol)
  • 30 panels = 30x 540W (NMOT, Conservatively) x 85% Long-Term Efficiency
  • 30 panels =13,770 W per row
  • x 4 rows = 55,080 W total NMOT
  • divide by 12 = 4590 W vs. need of 3714 <=== Good
    • Note: 4-rows deep = 47' vs. my constraint of 45' deep, but I can squeak it.

Please weigh in. Thank you!

 

[wpns]

Regarding racks, my understanding is that I can't stack more than (2) panels in "Portrait" orientation.

Why not?

Double high would be 30 panels. Factoring in a 7' pole (height from the ground), I'm looking at 7' + 94" + 94" = 22.6' tall (lol)

Well, your 85 degree tilt (practically vertical, really?) feels like it’s driving half of your problem, except:
/*
Michigan roughly spans between 41° and 49° north latitude.
*/
And I’d imagine you want to optimize for winter production?

And why is the low side of your array at 7 feet?

Something feels wonky with your geometry.

 

[Over9000]

Why not?

My understanding is that most racks are made to support landscape orientation, and they can go a few panels in height, but in portrait orientation, the limit is 2 ... apparently? Even so, it's 22.6' tall.

Well, your 85 degree tilt (practically vertical, really?) feels like it’s driving half of your problem, except:
/*
Michigan roughly spans between 41° and 49° north latitude.
*/
And I’d imagine you want to optimize for winter production?

And why is the low side of your array at 7 feet?

Something feels wonky with your geometry.

The 85 degree tilt covers my ass in the winter. See PVwatts @ 85 deg for a 56.76 kW system. I need to cover 3714 and basically December is my lone exception.



Right now I'm focusing on what "if" I move my panels to a different area and I can extend my array to 100' wide. The issue is factoring in the "shade depth" in between rows of panels.

If I put them behind my house, I calculate the following (based on my lat / long):

• House is 28' tall
  • Min Shade (Winter Solstice) = 28*tan(23.07 deg) = 12 feet in between house and 1st-row of panels
  • Max Shade (Summer Solstice) = 28*tan(62.49 deg) = 53.4' in between house and 1st-row panels
• Panels 22.6' tall when mounting (2) in portrait on a 7' pole
  • Min Shade (Winter Solstice) = 22.6*tan(23.07) = 9.6 feet in between the 1st / nth row of panels
  • Max Shade (Summer Solstice) = 22.6*tan(62.49) = 30.85 feet in between the 1st / nth row of panels

I'm not sure if this is the right way to look at it, but it would seem that for my design, I'd need:

• 53.4' between the house and 1st-row of panels + 30.85' in between each row of panels. That's a lot.

I'm hoping I'm looking at it the wrong way.

 

[hybe022]

Wow. This is some insane setup for a ranch. It's definitely over 9000.
PS Does your wife own capsule corporation?

 

[shadowmaker]

Regarding racks, my understanding is that I can't stack more than (2) panels in "Portrait" orientation.

I bet you can.

 

[Over9000]

I bet you can.
View attachment 288201

That's in landscape orientation. I'm talking portrait.

 

[Over9000]

Wow. This is some insane setup for a ranch. It's definitely over 9000.
PS Does your wife own capsule corporation?

IT'S OVER 9000!!!!

 

[shadowmaker]

That's in landscape orientation. I'm talking portrait.

F me and my dyslexia...

You are right. My 700W panels are 240cm tall. Even three in landscape is almost 4m tall and when you leave 1m room for snow, highest point is at 5m. That's a huge sail.

If you are going for 85 degree tilt (like me) don't even consider mono panels.

 

[Quattrohead]

I guess it's probably in here somewhere but let's start this question again, are you expecting to heat your house with electricity in the winter in minnesota? Even with heat pumps ?
If so I think this kills your plans right here unless you can pivot to gas.

 

[Over9000]

I guess it's probably in here somewhere but let's start this question again, are you expecting to heat your house with electricity in the winter in minnesota? Even with heat pumps ?
If so I think this kills your plans right here unless you can pivot to gas.

Solar + Geothermal. Many are doing it in Michigan and given the panel pitch of 85degrees, it'll help make sure there's plenty of power in the Winter months.

 

[Quattrohead]

If you use ICF, triple pane and spray foam insulation it could be doable.
But have yourself a pretty damn good generator on standby just in case, probably in the 15 to 24 kilowatt range.

 

[peufeu]

I can recommend geothermal. I use it.
Water comes out of the well at 14°C + low temperature underfloor hydronic heating at 30°C -> COP = 5

I got the heat pump used for next to nothing from someone who had a leaky horizontal geothermal installation

But have yourself a pretty damn good generator on standby just in case, probably in the 15 to 24 kilowatt range.

I'll take water cooled with cogeneration.

Assume 30% efficient diesel generator:

70% fuel energy -> waste heat -> used to heat the house
30% fuel energy -> electricity, split into half (15%) to the house and various appliances, half (15%) to heat pump with COP5 -> 75% fuel energy as heat

Expected result 145% fuel energy turned into heat, 15% into electricity, this doubles the efficiency for heating purposes

3714 kWh / month target. (Note: Since Electric heat is approximately 1702 kWh out of that total

What the hell are you doing with 67 kWh/day that isn't heating? Server farms? Charging the Tesla?

 

[Tommytwotone]

Alright folks - I just got the finished architecture plans from my new architect and am revisiting calculations because now I have to get my "site plan" approved by the county. There's a bunch of bullshit setbacks I have to deal with, but in short, I need to find a way to achieve my 3714 kWh / month target. (Note: Since Electric heat is approximately 1702 kWh out of that total, one of my next steps is having the take-off analysis done by an HVAC professional in order to size my unit and get a better understanding of the real load requirements for my house).

Consider the following factors:

• 100% ground-mount, 85 degree pitch
• Constraint is 70' long x 45' deep for the solar field

Here's where I need the help:

• Which panels should I really be considering? The best ones I found are:
  • Risen / Mono / RSM132-8-720-740BHDG
  • Hanerson / Bifacial / HN21H-66HT 730W
  • Seraphim / Mono / SRP-720-BHC-BG
  • Trina Solar / Bifacial / TSM-NEG21C.20 720W
  • Thornova / Bifacial / TS-BGT66-G12 720W (or BW-series)
  • Canadian Solar / Bifacial / CS7N-720TB-AG
• Regarding racks, my understanding is that I can't stack more than (2) panels in "Portrait" orientation.
  • Most of these panels are 94" in length x 52" in width
  • (70 ft x 12 in / 52 in) = ~15 panels in portrait per 70 feet
  • Double high would be 30 panels. Factoring in a 7' pole (height from the ground), I'm looking at 7' + 94" + 94" = 22.6' tall (lol)
  • 30 panels = 30x 540W (NMOT, Conservatively) x 85% Long-Term Efficiency
  • 30 panels =13,770 W per row
  • x 4 rows = 55,080 W total NMOT
  • divide by 12 = 4590 W vs. need of 3714 <=== Good
    • Note: 4-rows deep = 47' vs. my constraint of 45' deep, but I can squeak it.

Please weigh in. Thank you!

Have you chosen inverters yet? You may have discussed it in a previous post. I have 580 panels and their ISC is a huge factor in designing the strings. I now it was for my system. I think the panels above are 17amps to 20 amp for a single string.

Again, if you addressed this before I apologies.

 

[Over9000]

What the hell are you doing with 67 kWh/day that isn't heating? Server farms? Charging the Tesla?

A detailed breakdown is provided in the thread!

Have you chosen inverters yet? You may have discussed it in a previous post. I have 580 panels and their ISC is a huge factor in designing the strings. I now it was for my system. I think the panels above are 17amps to 20 amp for a single string.

Again, if you addressed this before I apologies.

No, I'm still focused on the geometry of the panel design.

Anyone have any thoughts regarding my calculations?

 

[mwk1000]

Daily consumption 2.4x hourly production. Looks to me like with optimal year-round or optimal winter tilt, you're expected to have enough every month.

Solar Irradiance Calculator

www.solarelectricityhandbook.com

"heat pump", looks like higher consumption in winter.

What I don't know is how many days without sun you will get.

What is your budgetary estimate for insane 5-day battery pack? (I've got cells for about 2 of your days.)

Suggest diesel generator with coolant and exhaust heat captured for domestic use when the sun doesn't cooperate.

I would reccommend a DC diesel generator. I found one used for cell sites as surplus for 5K and it is just a fantastic fit. I am also in michigan 48843 . I did the same thing with my pole barn facing south used attic trusses designed for the extra load of 48 panels - 18K. I am not off grid but the generator makes it possible to go for as long as we want - literally months if needed. It is connected to the battery 48v bus and ( see picture) auto starts on low voltage and stops on full.
It is MADE to charge 48v battery banks ... No worries of ever running your batteries to low, Nothing to manage once it is set up. Huge fan.
More -
- The inverter(s) only see pleny of amps so it will run the house and charge the batteries at the same time
- It is far more efficent than converting A/C I have measured my gallons/hr at the engine sweet spot ~ 10-12k output it costs me less than 12 cents a Kilowatt !! ( desiel @ 3.00/gal )
- It runs for 3-4 hours and you are set for a couple days ( more if you have sun) -- and zero noise even running it is 56db can't hear it in the house.
- yes big fan a strategic addition for self sufficent power.

 

[Over9000]

My understanding is that most racks are made to support landscape orientation, and they can go a few panels in height, but in portrait orientation, the limit is 2 ... apparently? Even so, it's 22.6' tall.



The 85 degree tilt covers my ass in the winter. See PVwatts @ 85 deg for a 56.76 kW system. I need to cover 3714 and basically December is my lone exception.

View attachment 288197

Right now I'm focusing on what "if" I move my panels to a different area and I can extend my array to 100' wide. The issue is factoring in the "shade depth" in between rows of panels.

If I put them behind my house, I calculate the following (based on my lat / long):

• House is 28' tall
  • Min Shade (Winter Solstice) = 28*tan(23.07 deg) = 12 feet in between house and 1st-row of panels
  • Max Shade (Summer Solstice) = 28*tan(62.49 deg) = 53.4' in between house and 1st-row panels
• Panels 22.6' tall when mounting (2) in portrait on a 7' pole
  • Min Shade (Winter Solstice) = 22.6*tan(23.07) = 9.6 feet in between the 1st / nth row of panels
  • Max Shade (Summer Solstice) = 22.6*tan(62.49) = 30.85 feet in between the 1st / nth row of panels

I'm not sure if this is the right way to look at it, but it would seem that for my design, I'd need:

• 53.4' between the house and 1st-row of panels + 30.85' in between each row of panels. That's a lot.

I'm hoping I'm looking at it the wrong way.

Anybody have thoughts on my trigonometry ?

 

[RussNM]

Do you not have the room to spread them out and not tempt fate? Thats quite a kite youre planning there.

 

[Over9000]

Do you not have the room to spread them out and not tempt fate? Thats quite a kite youre planning there.

I'm not tempting fate lol, I'm doing the calculations to figure out what is needed.

 

[green mountain boys]

Anybody have thoughts on my trigonometry?

I think the near vertical angle on the solar panels will help to maximize your critical winter production.
In my area, I roughly use a 3X height of object for shadow length on the shortest day of the year so your calculations look OK to me.

 

[Zwy]

I'm not tempting fate lol, I'm doing the calculations to figure out what is needed.

I don't see a reason for 85°. I'd use about 60° for winter on a ground mount and if you want more winter production, mount some panels vertically on a south facing wall.

That is what I am doing, I have a few south facing walls and will mount around 5 Kw of panels on those walls.