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Confused about Enphase IQ-7+ capability

TimC

WI/UP Border
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Messages
139
I'm hoping to build an array of eight PV panels with micro inverters. I am limiting myself to eight as it is all that will fit in my preferred rack (about 77"x40" ea).

So, I want to go with around 400w panels. Does it pay to install 400w panels when the inverter is likely to clip at lower production levels? The specs on the IQ 7+ say it will work with "235 W - 440 W +". Work with and effectively work at 400w production are two different issues, correct? If this inverter will just clip off at 350w or 375w is this a good inverter to go with? Am I misunderstanding what clipping means?

Thanks,
Tim
 

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Some folks implement a clipping strategy with panels bigger than the max capacity of micro inverters. In the early morning, evening and cloudy days, you will want as much as you can produce and it will likely not be clipped. Some believe this strategy (other than going with bigger micro inverters of course) is worthwhile.
 
... Am I misunderstanding what clipping means?...
Hey Tim,

You've got it. But the question you have to ask is how much power will I lose via clipping and is it worth it to go bigger?
The 400W is rated at STC. So, if your conditions commonly exceed STC (avg panel temperature less than 77°F, higher than sea level, low air-mass, etc.) then your panels might commonly be producing more than 400W in the peak of the day.

But, it's not likely as panels get hot in the sun and you only have maximum
radiance for a short period. For example, if the inverter is clipping at 350W
that's 350/400, or clipping occurs at > 87.5% radiance.

The chart to the right is what the sun puts out, what you might see if you had
a two-axis tracker. As yours will most likely be fixed, it won't be so good. But it
will give us the absolute maximum clipping might cost you. 87.5 is around a
sun elevation of 65, so ~65 to 90 and 90 to 65, so that's 2x(90-65) = 50 degree
span. 1 hour is 15 degrees, so 50/15 = 3.3 hrs you might be clipping per day.

So, in a perfectly aligned 2-axis system on a perfect day you might lose
(400-350) x 3.3 x 8 panels = 1.3 kWh/day. Oops, actually the additional lost
power is the integral under the curve, so just over 1/2 that or 0.7 kWh/day.

You can use SAM to give you a more realistic amount of clipping for your panel orientation, location and weather. Typically it's a lot less than you might think.
Intensity_small-psmfb4.png
 
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Some folks implement a clipping strategy with panels bigger than the max capacity of micro inverters. In the early morning, evening and cloudy days, you will want as much as you can produce and it will likely not be clipped. Some believe this strategy (other than going with bigger micro inverters of course) is worthwhile.

Thanks SM, so, I understand your point to an extent, however, I'm wondering...
If I have a 3.5kWh array built of Q Cells 420w panels (not compatible with Enphase IQ7+ according to Enphase) vs a 3.5kWh array built with 365w Heliene panels (compatible according to Enphase). Is the 400w array more likely to collect more energy than the 365w array during those shoulder production times? They are both 3.5kWh arrays with a different number of panels with probably some inefficiencies built into an array of more panels/micro inverters.

My ultimate goal is to have no more than eight panels (space constraints). If this was you would you wait for the next generation of more efficient panels to become available or settle for an eight panel array to produce about 82% of your needs?

Tim
 
Hey Tim,

You've got it. But the question you have to ask is how much power will I lose via clipping and is it worth it to go bigger?
The 400W is rated at STC. So, if your conditions commonly exceed STC (avg panel temperature less than 77°F, higher than sea level, low air-mass, etc.) then your panels might commonly be producing more than 400W in the peak of the day.

But, it's not likely as panels get hot in the sun and you only have maximum
radiance for a short period. For example, if the inverter is clipping at 350W
that's 350/400, or clipping occurs at > 87.5% radiance.

The chart to the right is what the sun puts out, what you might see if you had
a two-axis tracker. As yours will most likely be fixed, it won't be so good. But it
will give us the absolute maximum clipping might cost you. 87.5 is around a
sun elevation of 65, so ~65 to 90 and 90 to 65, so that's 2x(90-65) = 50 degree
span. 1 hour is 15 degrees, so 50/15 = 3.3 hrs you might be clipping per day.

So, in a perfectly aligned 2-axis system on a perfect day you might lose
(400-350) x 3.3 x 8 panels = 1.3 kWh/day. Oops, actually the additional lost
power is the integral under the curve, so just over 1/2 that or 0.7 kWh/day.

You can use SAM to give you a more realistic amount of clipping for your panel orientation, location and weather. Typically it's a lot less than you might think.
Intensity_small-psmfb4.png

Thanks Svetz. That is interesting. Apparently very minor losses indeed.

I refer you to the reply above to MisterSandals with the question this all leads me to... Gist of it is, do I wait or jump in now?

Tim
 
Arrays most of the time don't produce full output, especially stationary ones. You also have to remember the panel output will reduce every year due to degradation and you have dust and heat that lower output. The max rating is only under ideal conditions that you might hit once or twice a year.

I would go big on panels.
 
... Gist of it is, do I wait or jump in now?...

I'm just a theory guy, those types of questions are well beyond me.
I typically use SAM's economic model to make decisions, for me it's
most about $. But I do have a secondary decision making tool
shown to the right.
HTB1gjvpdlDH8KJjSszcq6zDTFXaP_large.jpg
 
Hi, looked into this myself a while ago and came across


Power Output
The IQ7+ is sized to output 290 watts of power. Realistically, you can (and should) pair them with slightly larger panels, up to the 325-335W range. This is to account for natural efficiency losses in the system. As a rule of thumb, you’ll lose about 10% of the panel wattage due to inefficiencies caused by factors like temperature.

You also want to oversize panels to stay closer to 290 watts of output during sub-optimal production conditions. This could occur to shading or other obstructions, but it also keeps you closer to max wattage during off-peak times of day (when the sun isn’t directly overhead).

^ makes sense

but then they say

you don’t want to go too large with your panels, because you’ll waste any overhead production during peak periods. The Enphase spec sheet suggests the IQ7+ is compatible with panels up to 440W, but that’s overkill given any power generated above the 290W cap is wasted. We’ve found that 335W is a good upper limit for the rated output of the IQ7+.

^ disagree, the price difference is getting closer such that 400+ watt panels are really a nice sweet spot with a 290Watt inverter output due to all of the considerations mentioned upthread (dust, high temperature, degradation over years, etc)
 
IQ 7+.jpg
This table shows the clipping losses that you can expect from the IQ 7+, depending on your panels' rated power. This data is for Newark. Based on the map (global solar atlas), should be reasonably similar to your region.
Solar-Map.jpg
Basically, your clipping losses will only be around 0.5% if you go for 400W modules. This has a lot to do with your geographical location. Very sunny areas get more clipping.
 
Another way to talk about this issue is to use the ratio of STC capacity of the panel to the inverter. This is known as the DC to AC ratio. My 5.7 kW Solaredge system has a DC to AC ratio of 1.5 to 1 because my inverter is 3.8 kW.
The ratios discussed here are considerably below that so I would not worry.
On another part of my system I have 4 IQ-7+ inverters on 305 Watt Sunpower panels. These panels are 96 cell panels and because of the voltage output of the panels I had to use IQ-7+ inverters, which cost more than the regular IQ-7s. I have the opposite issue as the OP because my DC to AC ratio is less than 1 to 1 and I have unused inverter capacity. The irony is these are west facing panels on a shed roof patio cover and only get sun half of the day because of the shade of the building this structure is attached to.. Sometimes life is not perfect.
 
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Thanks all for the input. I'm understanding it better now. I'm in a climate that rarely reaches above 80 degrees. Plus my panels would be on an open back rack on the ground rather than on a hot roof. If I do this it will likely be 385w-395w panels with the IQ-7A. I'm not sure of moving forward with this project as the utility is requiring the dual meters (an electrician's quote I am having difficulty getting) and Enphase techs have not made me comfortable that wiring into a meter rather than a load center breaker would pose no problems. In the previous email to what I have below, Enphase Techs basically told me to ask the electrician I have installing the meter. Yeah, no shit!

Meter wiring vs Load Center wiring details are in this thread...

Here's the last correspondence I received from Enphase Techs...

Hello Tim,
I have received a response from FAE.
The Enphase planning guide has single-line diagrams that cover solar and storage.
https://enphase.com/en-us/support/ensemble-technology-planning-guide
Both whole home and partial backup comply with the We Energy’s battery backup online diagram with the exception that there would be two utility meters instead of the one shown.
Hope this helps. Please feel free to reach out to us if you have any further questions.


That guide is well above my technical abilities as a DIYer. I also don't understand why any of those diagrams in it relate to my situation. I am strictly Grid Tied. No backup storage plans.

Tim
 
I joined this website to warn all of you about the marketing hype and misrepresentation that Enphase is doing with their clipping. AND THEY KNOW IT. Your mileage may vary, but for me, buying the Enphase microinverters was a COSTLY mistake (I am fighting enPhase to get a RMA refund!). As few of you may have a reference system to actually compare the lost power of an Enphase setup vs. a modern string inverter, I hope this info is helpful. On my (large) roof I have an existing system with a brand new high efficiency string inverter, and a new Enphase array. I was therefore able to actually compare the relative power output, and the shocking power (and $$$) loss due to the Enphase system.

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area in an 150 year old house on top of a volcanic cone. 100-150 feet higher than surroundings, no trees or PV array shadowing.

South West Roof: 16 years ago I put up 16 200w Kyocera panels with a Xantrex 3.2kw string inverter. A couple of months ago (one month out of warranty but 4 months after provable failure) my 3-times replaced Xantrex string inverter died again. Replaced it with a brand new SMA 3.8 transformerless unit (single string), street price $1300.

South East Roof: 6 weeks ago I put up 16 405w Jenko panels with 16 enPhase IQ7+ microinverters. The clipping from this junk is costing $1-3k per year, and I am fighting with Enphase to get a credit when I rip them out. ... They clip multiple kilowatts on multiple days, even the hot ones we have had here in the San Francisco bay area (and the panels still have a layer of soot on them!!!). I calculated (conservatively, allowing for utility's time of use pricing) that I am losing $1-3k per year. BUYING THE ENPHASE'S WAS A MISTAKE given my 405w configuration. The power loss would pay for a 10-year warranty SMA in less than every two years!!!!


The Enphase array points south east the SMA array catches south east sun, the SMA catches south west sun. No trees, now shadowing; get breezes pretty continuously off the bay, arrays are 100-200' above any houses between them and the SF Bay. So ... the SMA is a 1.3% more efficient than the Enphase, the power peaks (per SMA/enLighten graphs) 1:45 later on the SMA. This allows me to compare the clipping of the Enphase vs. the curve of the SMA (not actual power, but the curve shapes!). FYI, it looks like the Kyocera's may have degraded 5-7%, but the margin of error is great enough that I cannot get closer than that.

Results: with these 405w panels, even with the fire weather, red sky, haze, etc. I see clipping on the Enphase of 1.5-3 hours/day for 24 days out of the past 40. Using the ration between the SMA & the Enphase power out (when there is a bit of fog/overcast and no clipping) suggests the Enphase clips about 1-3kw PER DAY (1kw @ 1.5 hrs clipping, 3kw @ 3 hrs clipping), and has done so 20 days out of the past 40. Note the clipping even occurred at 95 degrees ambient temp (did not check the panel temps) ... therefore if you get a lot of sun, especially with breezes to cool the panels, do NOT exceed the clip output by more than 10% (for 25 year life) plus maybe 20%. Remember that you have to pay $500 for the Enphase monitor, then $120-140 per IQ7+. And don't pay much attention to the BS about wire sizing. The Enphase's are expensive compared to "street price" of SMA's. I believe the Enphase inverters are generally a very expensive marketing gimmick all built around the "oversizing" marketing FUD. Yes oversizing makes sense, but claiming support for a 440w panel but clipping to 290w (IQ7+) is darned near fraud.

FYI, you don't care about the number of cells (60, 72, 144 1/2 cells, etc.), you only care that the VoC (Voltage Open Circuit) is not exceeded, unless you live somewhere that you get really bright midwinter sunny days (voltage increases as the temp drops for a given sun energy). Watch out for the "500w dual sided" panels though. They are tricky
 
I would start a new thread with your complaint.... You have many items that could be discussed but it would interfere with the person posting this thread.
 
With one exception that is a great idea ... The OP should be aware of the issues around the exorbitant claims of Enphase vis a vis the 7+ if using the "supported" 440w max. The oversizing of the 7 and prior was sort of a good compromise as discussed. Basically Enphase inverters are no better than the competition but by claiming to support larger panels by simply changing the Vpp is, at best, misrepresentation, and at worst fraud.
 
With one exception that is a great idea ... The OP should be aware of the issues around the exorbitant claims of Enphase vis a vis the 7+ if using the "supported" 440w max. The oversizing of the 7 and prior was sort of a good compromise as discussed. Basically Enphase inverters are no better than the competition but by claiming to support larger panels by simply changing the Vpp is, at best, misrepresentation, and at worst fraud.
I am agreeing with you....I would love to hear more about your system and problems.

Questions you say they are 200' away plus another 75' to hook them into the house. What size wire was used and how many inverters are on each Q cable? If there is too much resistance in the cable then voltage will go up and the inverter will pull back and produce less power and show up as clipping.

What is your nominal house voltage at night?

Your system was designed to clip and it is very normal to design a system like that. My system produces a lot later in the day then most and you will likely also see increases in the low light times. It is likely a wash but yes I wouldn't want to see clipping either but it was designed in.
 
joined this website to warn all of you about the marketing hype and misrepresentation that Enphase is doing with their clipping
I agree a new topic would get you greater visibility for your complaint. I have a string inverter with DC to AC ratio of 1.5 to 1, which is higher than yours. At first I was upset when i saw the amount of clipping.
 
Work with and effectively work at 400w production are two different issues, correct? If this inverter will just clip off at 350w or 375w is this a good inverter to go with? Am I misunderstanding what clipping means?
Yes, those are two different issues.
Clipping is a complicated issue. Overpaneling describes a system with a high DC to AC ratio and depending on orientation of the panels may result in clipping. Optimizing system output should be the goal for any given cost. I know of an installation in which the DC to AC ratio is over 2 to 1 and there is virtually no clipping. This was accomplished by careful trial and error changes in orientation on a large gound mount system of multiple arrays. Most installations do not have that luxury..

I don't know what your understanding of clipping is so i can't comment on your misunderstnding? My understanding of the amount of clipping is the area above a clipped production curve and below the theoretical production of a system if there was on inverter clipping. However the analysis does not end there because with a high DC to AC ratio there is an earlier ramp up of production in the morning and a later ramp down in the afternoons. That extra production offsets some of the production lost due to clipping around Noon.
 
IQ 7+ Enphase inverters are good for 295 Watts of production but you can be feed by up to a 440 Watt panel... so they clip when the solar panels produce over 295 Watts in this case.
 
IQ 7+ Enphase inverters are good for 295 Watts of production
I have some IQ7 -96 inverters that have more capacity than my used Sunpower 305 Watt panels can produce but the panels are 96 cells so the driver on inverter selection was voltage.
I am waiting for @daemeonr to start a new thread so we can discuss his situation in more detail.
 
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