1201
Solar Wizard
Also, the pge agreement is called an "interconnection agreement" and it spells out that it deals with systems that are "connected in parallel' to pge.
Confusion on meaning of Off Grid vs Grid-tie vs Zero Export
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timselectric
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Wait, this is a little confusing.
Isn't NEM 2.0 by definition, an interconnection agreement?
OffGridInTheCity
Solar Wizard
By this definition, a Bluetti type power system must be registered? As mentioned above, I don't think the PGE folks in this back/forth understand what off-grid is and the term "connected in parallel" is not being defined very well.
timselectric
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I don't really care how they word it.
All that anyone needs to know is that if their system runs in parallel with the grid, they better get permission (an agreement) to do so.
And if their system doesn't, it's none of their business. Just like my microwave.
All that anyone needs to know is that if their system runs in parallel with the grid, they better get permission (an agreement) to do so.
And if their system doesn't, it's none of their business. Just like my microwave.
dougbert
Solar Wizard
I guess the phrase "I only charge my batteries with the grid when they are low" has several layers of meaning. And has for many years
No-one-&-Not-Important
From Nebulae to Neighbors: One Photon at time!
But according to them I am not interconnecting it if I have a "Break before Make" system. Either system (battery or battery with SolarPV generates power) and both are physically interconnected; that's the whole point of having such a switch.
I just want to avoid the Interconnection agreement because it is as timselectric said, a PitA.
I pay to have legal and functional electrical service.. ..
if at 9 pm I hook a extention cord up to an outlet and run a flood light at night to see critters in the ditch , that’s my business.. not the poco ..
If later I use that same cord to power a giant sound system to piss off my neighbor at midnight, it’s my business…not the poco …
If later I then use then use the same cord and hook up a battery charger to boost my batteries for an hour on a totally off grid, seperate from the grid system..it’s my business… not the poco .
Demanding everyone to ask for permission for everything you do is how they took over the EU and many other countries … and striped them of their rights …they are trying to do it here too.
screw em.
That’s my postion…
J.
No-one-&-Not-Important
From Nebulae to Neighbors: One Photon at time!
especially the "divide by zero" comment... "Computer science", "Math", "Engineering" major? Please DM if you'd like not to create chatter in this thread.Yes, when I spoke to PGE, they did say that to me on a couple of occasions. "Why would you want to generate that much energy and not feed it back to the grid...?"
I was polite and I didn't tell them what was on my mind... which was "it's because you've taken advantage of me and so many others for years... And now you want me to give you energy for free (I get nothing under NEM3.0) while you charge $0.45/kWh for it to someone else?
And that was my polite way of putting it... I didn't want to offend anyone's eyes when reading it in this thread!
timselectric
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Correct, your inverter is never connected to the grid.
Only one or the other is connected to your house, at any time.
1201
Solar Wizard
Others and i have said the same thing about two dozen times now . I didn't know how or what else to tell you.
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dougbert
Solar Wizard
lol,you know the code words - lol. Yeah, CS, class of 81
divide by zero exception for sure, lol
OR charge you for your own electrons you sold them for less.......Why I do not believe in netmetering anymore
nice
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
I should have been more clear. The initial GT system was under NEM 2.0. Then a non export hybrid inverter with batteries was added without a new or additional interconnection agreement.
timselectric
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So, it's still under the existing agreement?
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
The equipment is not listed under the original agreement but it was installed later with a building permit.
timselectric
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OK, I thought that you were saying that there was an exception that didn't require any agreement. I understand, now.
dougbert
Solar Wizard
referring back to this email
they assert/believe/require:
- If you have solar/battery storage THEN it must (need) to be parallel to PG&E grid
- no off grid allowed is what I see here - horse feathers
- THEN you must have an agreement
- Break Before Make is an exception, not for normal us
now I understand what this guy is saying
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Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
That letter was referring to a paired storage agreement where stored solar is exported to the grid. That is what SNEM means. Those are typically issued in conjunction with SGIP grants. My reference was to a non export storage system. Angie Wong is welcome to pull the meter on my house which has a legally permitted non export hybrid inverter with battery configured for non export.
No-one-&-Not-Important
From Nebulae to Neighbors: One Photon at time!
PGE is basically saying we do not wish to be subjected to market forces. If we're going to lay infrastructure to your house, we want the money back from you, and we don't want to look like the "bad guys" by going to the tax man so often to cover our "bad infra" bets. PGE could also have decided to help customers install solar and reduce their reliance on the grid so grids become ultra local. Instead, they chose to make it complex and feed contractors so those who fear DIY would pay $5/W (without battery) installation costs when it can be done for <<<$2 (incl. batteries). It's not a free market economy; it's "free to enter but you'll get ripped off by me if you don't have as much money as me" market.
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zanydroid
Solar Wizard
The $145 interconnect application isn’t hard, someone that does it twice would get fluent with it.
Most of the gates are from contractor licensing, inspections, equipment certifications.
Also you are underplaying the fact that stable microgrid tech is still in its infancy (and by microgrid I don’t mean one house, I mean one block). This ranges from grid forming inverters in the fancy sense of simulating the stabilizing capability of spinning generators, to distributed control protocols and algorithms, which are likely not adjacent to the control means used in the grid today (or if they are, it requires a smart migration plan)
I would have preferred a nuanced argument maybe around saying we should be pushing more into the research and pilot trials.
No-one-&-Not-Important
From Nebulae to Neighbors: One Photon at time!
I definitely agree microgrid tech requires substantial improvement; BUT... it’s been 20+ years (some argue longer) & it’s not rocket science (rocket science has advanced further in a shorter period of time).
As for the micro-grid I implied (I wasn't precise in my description, my apologies), I was thinking at the city level; as PGE ranges over thousands of miles). CCAs (e.g.: I live in SJCE territory; we were co-opted) can plan their local-grid to support local solar gen (and support it) providing additional sources and backup using the more distant electrical source they generate with. But alas, there isn’t even a desire for this, hence, why I argued this has more to do with business protectionism than with the “correct” thing to do.
I do love nuance btw, sincerely, I really do. And I think we all go through a journey that leads us from an “initial conclusion” to a “check the context and details” (ie: the nuance) to “reconstructing the conclusion”. The problem with "nuance" is this: Locally temporal "nuance" isn't enough to capture the long ranging nuanced changes (context: the myth of the "boiling frog" syndrome). Most people's memories and desire to track history is unintentionally shallow so they don't connect the dots of slow changes over time. But there are many of us, myself included, who want to play the long game. I happen to want to play it keeping in mind that others choices matter; a less efficient method. Others who play the long game, think that others' choices should be "corralled"; they know of course they just can't force too much change too abruptly.
I've seen first hand, and quite often, how the individuals who get to print and distribute money and its rules govern the "corralling" rules. The "cattle" analogy really does apply. In the U.S., the people’s “will” meant something until the 1920s, but it is now largely irrelevant & how much support the populous gives to an initiative has ZERO, not some, but zero contribution to the outcome, at least not in the U.S., China, Russia nor other overt or covert authoritarian regimes. Both major parties in the US (I dislike and have not voted for either party in a long time) just play out the “battle of wooden swords” (a roman senate reference) as a show for the people to give them the impression they care. Most reps start out "caring" but most get sucked in; they slip up on one or two instances when they're facing a personal crisis (or are co-opted into one) or become greedy, or power hungry; they eventually sell out.
That's the root cause of what I referenced above in the PGE situation. You can practically trace these effects in play over the course of years and 2-3 decades... "Boiling frog" syndrome... If one accepts tiny small changes thinking "I got something so I'll give up something & can adapt", eventually, you'll find yourself in a corner you can't back out of.
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Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
A CCA is not microgrid technology. It is a result of deregulation and the separation of Generation and Distribution. A CCA is mostly paperwork, but a valuable aspect of deregulation. My CCA has contracted for both solar and a battery facility but those are not integrated into a microgrid but they will help the grid in my area. I have not heard how the battery facility will operate in the event of a power outage.
No-one-&-Not-Important
From Nebulae to Neighbors: One Photon at time!
Thanks.
I updated my post to more accurately reflect the meaning I had intended.Breeze
New Member
Not my experience at all. The difference in cost, between utility and contractor was over $10K
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