Cons of going off grid?

[PepperRidgeFarm]

First post so please go easy.

Ive been using 2 2kw GTIL inverters for a couple years now as my system grows (I know they catch a lot of flack, but they actually work really well). We recently had a decent snow storm roll in and I decided to switch over to my pair of MPP Solar 3048lv-mk's. I did this to protect my grid tie inverters in the case of a surge, and to make sure my greenhouse didn't lose power to its heaters while I was asleep knowing damn well the temps would be pretty cold at night, and it could have produced some decent freezing rain.

I am now 5 days in with my main breaker off and really haven't changed my lifestyle at all. Even my girlfriend says she often forgets we are off grid, and my project not being a pain to her is a requirement of mine. My setup isn't crazy, I am running 4kw of panels, 21 KWH of DIY Li-ion batteries, a Midnite solar classic 150, and the 6kw of inverters I mentioned before. Along with adding solar I have made some changes to the house to reduce my load such as re-insulating the attic and swapping the water heater with a heat pump water heater that I will be ducting into the house in the summer, and here soon I will be adding a small geothermal A/C to my house.

Being 5 days into this it has made me rethink even being connected to the grid. The reason I am turning to you guys is 1, there are many of you with real world experience, and 2, I have concerns that I would like to talk over with people here. Convenience is a huge factor to me for my girlfriend like I said before, I know myself and I will happily heat water on the wood stove for a bath to achieve my goals, but that doesn't go over well for everyone...

With summer around the corner I will be obviously using the A/C more, my greenhouse fans will be running much more often, and my well pump will be working more to water the plants for the farm. I don't plan on going off grid fully until I actually fully test out a summer with this setup, but I can't help but wonder what other issues I could run into.

My question for you guys is should I continue with my GTIL setup to offset my cost and just have the MPP inverters there in case of a power out situation? Or is it worth saving the $20 or so a month to call my power company and tell them to cut me off, sell the GTIL's and add more MPP inverters? What other considerations should I have other than summer power usage and potential (normal) failures?

Thank you all in advance.

 

[mike95490]

You have to find out what the Grid Abandoment rules are for your area/PowCo You might get your house red-tagged by a building inspector if the PowCo reports it. The PowCo usually enters into a "arrangement" with the goverment to insure they will have enough customers to make running cables and building power plants worthwhile.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I'm not aware of any laws preventing a homeowner from disconnecting from the grid. The Amish don't have electricity, and under that precedent, such considerations would probably fall under "Equal protection under the law" which is in the 14th Amendment.

From all the reading I've done, the people who claim they were forced to have grid power are always living in a shack, feeding their children raw milk and untreated rainwater, and usually not very credible.

The government can't force you to purchase electricity, at least not that I'm aware of.

The biggest obstacle to being off grid full time is the cost of having a sufficient amount of battery/energy storage.

Personally, I think its economically foolish to go off grid. I could do it, we have 11kw of solar, 25kWh of lithium, and two Sunny Islands.. and we're forced off grid a few times a year for a week at a time when storms come through.. But staying off grid? No way.. Its not that I couldn't do it, its that I'd be wasting my money. Grid power is still the cheapest available..

 

[Steve_S]

You have to find out what the Grid Abandoment rules are for your area/PowCo You might get your house red-tagged by a building inspector if the PowCo reports it. The PowCo usually enters into a "arrangement" with the goverment to insure they will have enough customers to make running cables and building power plants worthwhile.

Anyone living where they do not allow for offgrid residences as mentioned, only suggestion MOVE. That's a Obscenity ! Absolutely no excuse for it.

 

[sunshine]

I'm not aware of any laws preventing a homeowner from disconnecting from the grid.

Not yet, but anyone going off grid must factor in that a network charge that can not be avoided will be a possibility.

 

[wattmatters]

Or is it worth saving the $20 or so a month to call my power company and tell them to cut me off, sell the GTIL's and add more MPP inverters?

Sounds like cheap redundancy for when your own system has a failure or requires maintenance.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Not yet, but anyone going off grid must factor in that a network charge that can not be avoided will be a possibility.

A network charge? Huh?

If you don't have a meter on your home, they can't charge you for being connected..

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

I have grid backup (and use it daily) but my system is designed to be 100% off-grid and to power the house without grid in a Puerto Rico type emergency AND just as a goal to see if we can be Offgrid but yet In the City

Can you cancel your grid service? I suspect NO. In many jurisdictions you could loose your 'certificate of occupancy' if you don't have services at your residence. So you may need to maintain grid service, but you don't have to use it.

Back to pros/cons. I've gradually expanded my system so I can run 8 months of the year with no grid and the only thing I'd have to give up is the spa. However - winter is a problem. I've converted the house to all electric - e.g. whole house heat pump - but this December we only brought in 250kwh for the month!!!! worst ever in the last 3 years - and illustrated that 30days of no sun can just throw a monkey wrench into 100% solar.

Noodling on more panels, propane/generator backup, and even wood boiler / hot-water heat... OR just suffering thru a bad solar month in the trailer for warmth (e.g. much smaller place to heat).

For now - some backup grid is just prudent

 

[mike95490]

Grid Abandonment by state: ( and septic, water too )

Is living off-grid legal in your state?

The laws about off-grid electric, water, and sewage in every state in America, including information on how local governments make off-grid living illegal.

www.primalsurvivor.net

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Grid Abandonment by state: ( and septic, water too )

Is living off-grid legal in your state?

The laws about off-grid electric, water, and sewage in every state in America, including information on how local governments make off-grid living illegal.

www.primalsurvivor.net

Nice posting!

Yes sir - I'm in Southern Oregon and besides Solar...
- We did a 2000sq ft roof rain-water harvest -> 3 x 2500gal tanks + pump-house/Class-A UV (as required by the city) - all legal and we ran 9 months on this last year. Can easily do 12months with some conservation.
**You should have seen the city - they threw a fit about rain-harvest and had to show them the official government Oregon 'pamplet' explaining how to do it!! They just shook their heads but eventually agreed with Class A UV restriction.
- We have plans for waste.

The goal is for our home to function 100% offgrid in the city - and we've gone a long ways to getting there. The main thing is we have an oversized lot which is needed to place the solar panels.

 

[sunshine]

If you don't have a meter on your home, they can't charge you for being connected..

Infrastructure costs don't disappear, Your share then gets allocated to your neighbours in ever increasing amounts down to the last one connected. By then you will be paying $1000s just for that light at the end of the street through rates. taxes or any other way.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Infrastructure costs don't disappear, Your share of the costs then gets allocated to your neighbours in ever increasing amounts down to the last one connected. By then you will be paying $1000s just for that street light at the end of the street through rates. taxes or any other way.

But that could be claimed about anything.. which is why we vote people in and out of office.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

Ive been using 2 2kw GTIL inverters for a couple years now as my system grows (I know they catch a lot of flack, but they actually work really well). We recently had a decent snow storm roll in and I decided to switch over to my pair of MPP Solar 3048lv-mk's. I did this to protect my grid tie inverters in the case of a surge,

I don't know how all net metering agreements work from state to state but my agreement has the utility writing me a check every 2 years for any excess watts that might be left over after offsetting usage. I know some states do it on an annual basis. Maybe some states say use it or lose it? idk But the point is I won't lose any of those credits. In my case that won't be an issue for awhile but when I do get to the point of being able to snub my power provider, I figure they will just have to write me that check every 2 years and I'll pay the minimum monthly hookup fee to keep a reliable backup source for those times my SDS is down for maintenance. They won't even have to pay someone to come read the meter since it's already smart.

 

[Ampster]

I'm not aware of any laws preventing a homeowner from disconnecting from the grid.

In California the building codes require a connection if one is available nearby. Perhaps the Amish never had power poles in their neighborhoods and they may have influenced building codes in their area.

The government can't force you to purchase electricity, at least not that I'm aware of.

Exactly. In California they can force you to have a connection but there is no requirement to use that connection.

 

[sunshine]

But that could be claimed about anything.. which is why we vote people in and out of office.

Reality is a bummer I know. If we could vote someone in that could fix the grid and the charging methodology applied why are we even thinking about spending on our own solar when the last tenders for grid supplied solar went for a fraction of what we intend to spend to go independent?
Free power is great, this is written using it, Just need to remember it is a kinda reverse ponzi!

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

Perhaps the Amish never had power poles in their neighborhoods and they may have influenced building codes in their area.

That must be the Lost Tribe of the Amish at Slab City.

 

[MurphyGuy]

In California the building codes require a connection if one is available nearby. Perhaps the Amish never had power poles in their neighborhoods and they may have influenced building codes in their area.

Exactly. In California they can force you to have a connection but there is no requirement to use that connection.

The real issue is: Can they force you to have a meter and then charge you for having that meter?

If their code simply requires the wires be run to the house's exterior, then fine.. but I find any idea of them forcing you to pay a utility company for anything to be offensive, and most likely a constitutional violation.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

Free power is great, this is written using it, Just need to remember it is a kinda reverse ponzi!

Not sure how you figure it's free unless you inherited the system from a rich uncle. The best I can do is pay many many $thousands in advance for my power, thereby hopefully getting it at a much discounted price over what everyone else will pay by the month over 20 years. I could die tomorrow and lose that bet too. There are no free meals, but ponzi schemes do seem popular these days.

 

[wattmatters]

Getting back to the original question, to me the cons of going off-grid are:

1. Capital costs. Many don't have the upfront $ required. Paying a smaller regular amount to have a service is often easier.

2. You are now solely responsible for the upkeep, maintenance and operational performance of the (micro) grid you've installed. If that requires a professional to sort something out or ordering a key replacement component, it may be none are available at short notice and you are SOL until they are.

3. Capacity constraints - in general the grid is more capable of delivering higher capacity more easily. Building an off-grid system means scoping the system for whatever peak/surge power demand you have which can be very costly, or being unable to use the same appliances or use them in the manner you could with the grid.

4. A requirement to change your energy demand habits and profile. This will likely involve changing the way you live, and/or changing the way you consume energy. It may mean use of alternatives to electrical energy sources which may be less environmentally friendly. It also likely means replacing appliances well before the end of their useful lives. And it just might be your home is entirely unsuitable for off-grid conversion, at least not in any financially rational sense.

5. The grid where you are may already be low carbon emissions grid. Going off-grid isn't going to make much environmental difference.

6. The grid where you are may be a high carbon emissions grid. In which case removing solar PV capacity from being able to be fed into the grid means less renewable energy is available overall. Your off-grid system will only produce based on your demand and not its full capacity. When on grid that excess renewable energy may be exported and will be used by others as well as offset fossil fuel generation.

7. Financial - there's no guarantee going off-grid is going to be financially beneficial. It can be but it's certainly no given, and many fail to account for various ongoing costs, or the cost involved in making the energy consumption changes necessary. That monthly fee you were paying the utility? You'll need to have something similar put away for when you need it.

8. You may not have sufficient space to generate enough energy and may end up using more fossil fuels for backup and redundancy than you realise.

9. Property values may be lower for a home without grid connection. While you might love the idea of being off-grid, many prospective buyers would not when they have the option of surrounding properties with a grid connection.

Of course there is a list of pros to going off-grid as well, but that wasn't the question.

And not all of the above cons apply in every case.

 

[Ampster]

The real issue is: Can they force you to have a meter and then charge you for having that meter?

I do not know the specifics but I suspect that is a tariff issue. I am not sure what the constitutional issue is since every meter installation has a choice of which tariff to choose. The building code requirement is described as a safety requirement.