Cons of going off grid?

[Ozark Tinkering]

That's a sober and clear eyed look, @wattmatters everyone would do well to consider.

 

[45North]

But that could be claimed about anything.. which is why we vote people in and out of office.

You can elect new political leaders but the infrastructure cost does not go away. The public in a first world country demands access to power as a right to an essential service and someone, (everyone?) has to pay for it.

 

[OffGridEnclave]

First post so please go easy.

Ive been using 2 2kw GTIL inverters for a couple years now as my system grows (I know they catch a lot of flack, but they actually work really well). We recently had a decent snow storm roll in and I decided to switch over to my pair of MPP Solar 3048lv-mk's. I did this to protect my grid tie inverters in the case of a surge, and to make sure my greenhouse didn't lose power to its heaters while I was asleep knowing damn well the temps would be pretty cold at night, and it could have produced some decent freezing rain.

I am now 5 days in with my main breaker off and really haven't changed my lifestyle at all. Even my girlfriend says she often forgets we are off grid, and my project not being a pain to her is a requirement of mine. My setup isn't crazy, I am running 4kw of panels, 21 KWH of DIY Li-ion batteries, a Midnite solar classic 150, and the 6kw of inverters I mentioned before. Along with adding solar I have made some changes to the house to reduce my load such as re-insulating the attic and swapping the water heater with a heat pump water heater that I will be ducting into the house in the summer, and here soon I will be adding a small geothermal A/C to my house.

Being 5 days into this it has made me rethink even being connected to the grid. The reason I am turning to you guys is 1, there are many of you with real world experience, and 2, I have concerns that I would like to talk over with people here. Convenience is a huge factor to me for my girlfriend like I said before, I know myself and I will happily heat water on the wood stove for a bath to achieve my goals, but that doesn't go over well for everyone...

With summer around the corner I will be obviously using the A/C more, my greenhouse fans will be running much more often, and my well pump will be working more to water the plants for the farm. I don't plan on going off grid fully until I actually fully test out a summer with this setup, but I can't help but wonder what other issues I could run into.

My question for you guys is should I continue with my GTIL setup to offset my cost and just have the MPP inverters there in case of a power out situation? Or is it worth saving the $20 or so a month to call my power company and tell them to cut me off, sell the GTIL's and add more MPP inverters? What other considerations should I have other than summer power usage and potential (normal) failures?

Thank you all in advance.

there is plenty of cons when living "fully off grid" from a technical perspective.
battery sizing is a lot more serious business when there is no grid to charge from.
need to have a proper gasoline generator to upset longer phases of bad weather in winter , etc etc.

if you have grid connection already, it is usually more economical to build for offgrid, but instead using generator or such use the grid.

i am living offgrid since about 8-9 years now, generally everything is possible, but one needs to adjust to nature. at times there is no "proper ammount of power for 3 weeks in winter" , got to be able to adjust life accordingly.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

would probably fall under "Equal protection under the law" which is in the 14th Amendment.

Maybe

They leave the Amish and Mennonites and some other groups alone because of freedom of religion. Unsure how the court would interpret equal protection if they view religion as exclusive versus choice.

But I would like to think the courts would oppose coercion to maintain grid connections.

 

[LunarEstates]

In California the building codes require a connection if one is available nearby. Perhaps the Amish never had power poles in their neighborhoods and they may have influenced building codes in their area.

Exactly. In California they can force you to have a connection but there is no requirement to use that connection.

I wonder what they define as “nearby”.

I am in CA and I feel like I see many many off grid homes in my day to day.

 

[Koldsimer]

Stress. Just the general stress of knowing you are the backup plan. As least it stresses me out sometimes.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Just the general stress of knowing you are the backup plan. As least it stresses me out sometimes.

I’m comforted and comfortable with me as a backup plan. I can afford me, and I don’t have to wait for me to show up. Plus me installed the stuff; if I had to call for service someone would have to figure out the system while charging me by the hour. If I have a problem, me already knows the system and me can assess the situation pretty quickly. Me hasn’t done anything I don’t understand.

I’m comforted that everything is up to me. Plus I have enough spare of everything including SCC and inverters, fuses, and even some panels and wire, a few hundred terminals…

Being off grid and responsible for everything is not really a downside in my opinion.

 

[Koldsimer]

I’m comforted and comfortable with me as a backup plan. I can afford me, and I don’t have to wait for me to show up. Plus me installed the stuff; if I had to call for service someone would have to figure out the system while charging me by the hour. If I have a problem, me already knows the system and me can assess the situation pretty quickly. Me hasn’t done anything I don’t understand.

I’m comforted that everything is up to me. Plus I have enough spare of everything including SCC and inverters, fuses, and even some panels and wire, a few hundred terminals…

Being off grid and responsible for everything is not really a downside in my opinion.

I feel that way sometimes. It's definitely satisfying when everything is humming along smoothly. In fact, it's something i never had the opportunity to feel when i lived in suburbia connected to the grid, so that's pretty cool. There are times I'm sitting in my living room with the ac's blowing cold, watching satellite tv with a cold one i just pulled from the fridge.... i still can't believe it's possible that i was capable of making it happen without burning anything down. But that's not what the OP asked about.

I'm relatively new to living off grid (2yrs) and i have my house and my dads house to monitor so i guess it just gets to me sometimes. I'm also nowhere near as experienced and knowledgeable about electricity as most on here seem to be so problems and issues can be intimidating.

 

[wattmatters]

I’m comforted and comfortable with me as a backup plan.

What's the backup plan when you can't do what's needed? e.g. you are ill, or injured, or away from home, or infirmed for some reason.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I have grid backup (and use it daily) but my system is designed to be 100% off-grid and to power the house without grid in a Puerto Rico type emergency AND just as a goal to see if we can be Offgrid but yet In the City

Same here.. Grid tied, but fully capable of being without the grid and living comfortably with all the modern amenities..

Can you cancel your grid service? I suspect NO. In many jurisdictions you could loose your 'certificate of occupancy' if you don't have services at your residence. So you may need to maintain grid service, but you don't have to use it.

But the off-grid system WOULD BE the service.. I'm kind of surprised this issue hasn't ended up in the Supreme Court yet.. and since it hasn't, I suspect much of the "its illegal" complaints are a bit of hyperbole.
The gov can't force you to purchase something.. although they did seem to make an exception with health insurance.. it was pretty narrow.

Back to pros/cons. I've gradually expanded my system so I can run 8 months of the year with no grid and the only thing I'd have to give up is the spa. However - winter is a problem. I've converted the house to all electric - e.g. whole house heat pump - but this December we only brought in 250kwh for the month!!!! worst ever in the last 3 years - and illustrated that 30days of no sun can just throw a monkey wrench into 100% solar.

Oh man.... December and January are horror months. I made 185 in December and 260 in January.. Luckily, February is looking much better.

If I was off grid in some emergency, we'd be implementing some extreme energy saving procedures. The biggest of which would be to move the refrigerated and frozen items outside where the temps were in single digits and teens. That would save almost 4 kWh's per day on its own.

I'd probably have to hook up the generator to charge the battery bank, but we'd be fine.

Noodling on more panels, propane/generator backup, and even wood boiler / hot-water heat... OR just suffering thru a bad solar month in the trailer for warmth (e.g. much smaller place to heat).

For now - some backup grid is just prudent

We keep an extra 7 kW of solar panels in storage, along with extra inverters.. If I got that desperate, I could increase the size of my system by 60% and that would reduce generator usage.

It feels good to have all that security.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

What's the backup plan when you can't do what's needed? e.g. you are ill, or injured, or away from home, or infirmed for some reason.

My friend Ramel is capable. Former cell service tech. Phone call. But honestly? My solar power system didn’t know I had covid in December and just kept working

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

We keep an extra 7 kW of solar panels in storage, along with extra inverters.. If I got that desperate, I could increase the size of my system by 60% and that would reduce generator usage.

Yes sir - I have 42 panels (12kw) under the house for deployment into the back yard for winter months in an extreme emergency. The plan is to parallel them into the existing charge controllers since production is so low it won't overload them. Also bought wire and working on a companion stockpile of universal strut & accessories to prop them up.

Got used panels from @santansolar on ebay for a good price. They tested out at 90%+ of original specs and saved a bunch of $. Running a generator to create 500kwh or 800kwh in a month is a big deal / big undertaking if you figure in propane, cost of generator maintenance etc.

Unfortunately, this December's absolutely dismal numbers (500kwh/month -> 250kwh/month) took a lot of rose colored tint off my glasses and so I'm planning to add more permanent panels (another 4kw) and some modest propane.

Bought 2 x 100lb tanks to see what it's like and their manageable. They weight about 175lbs full, have ~23gal, and a cheap dolly can move them around. Maybe up to 8 x for 200gal of propane - e.g. 200 * 4kwh/gal ~ 800kwh to lesson the really bad solar days.

It feels good to have all that security.

Agreed and thanks for sharing - I'm not the only one!

 

[Steve_S]

Funny how some States demand you be grid connected OR ELSE (Freedom ? Right to Choose ? Self-determination ? - What was America's Founding principle about freedoms and other equally SILLY Notions ? Just old words that no longer apply ?

AND THEN YOU GET !!!

Florida legislators want to kill solar net metering, and hundreds rallied in protest​

Michelle Lewis - Feb. 9th 2022 9:37 am PT

And FLA isn't the only one.... THINK ABOUT IT ! Locked in being nothing more than Indentured by State to an External Entity !

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Funny how some States demand you be grid connected OR ELSE

It confuses me to a point.
Solar customers install solar (invest money) to benefit themselves. If others do not have solar why should solar owners have to subsidize that? “They” say it’s not fair to have grid available but get reduced rates since poor folks can’t afford solar. With this logic new car buyers should be subsidizing used car buyers purchase of cars.

I understand there needs to be some infrastructure cost recapture for solar owners that depend on grid, but basic high school accounting would say that a flat connection fee for all customers equally makes sense rather than cut the return on investment a solar owner could experience

 

[RV10flyer]

If people can afford $80K 4x4 jacked up trucks, they can afford a totally off-grid solar system. Oh, but everyone won’t see my solar system driving through our dump of a town 5 times/day.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

If people can afford $80K 4x4 jacked up trucks, they can afford a totally off-grid solar system. Oh, but everyone won’t see my solar system driving through our dump of a town 5 times/day.

That’s a little bit of ignorant stereotyping right there. Fairly ignorant actually.

Grouping all people who _____ into a class you despise without knowing anything about them. It might fit some people but not all. Not most of the people I know that modify trucks or jeeps or whatever. People who build jeeps or trucks or dragsters or fishing boats might be rural, live in a hick town, or a posh city neighborhood, or a resort town like Stowe.

To those “dump of a town” residents it’s home and - I’m thinking some specific people- some of those folks young and old can buy whatever they want and write a check.

You hit me wrong; one of your favorite little dump-town hicks I know dresses in mechanic’s uniform green, has a big truck, always looks a bit rough…and owns a multimillion dollar business, a beautiful giant home on hundreds of acres, a cigarette boat, and his own airplane. No debt.

I live in a rural town on a road that dates to the revolutionary war. If I drive south there’s pavement in a few miles. I can’t drive north right now cuz the road is closed for the winter. And I’d need my modified jeep to drive the 10 miles north to pavement in summer. I have solar and don’t care who looks at my jeep or doesn’t- I built it for me not other people. Who by the way are neither better nor lesser than me.

 

[Ampster]

Funny how some States demand you be grid connected OR ELSE

I understand the safety reasons. I am also passionate about my right to self generate without restriction and have no issue with the $10 a month minimum fee. It is inexpensive backup and even though clouds lower my production they do bring rain which the environment needs.

 

[Steve_S]

A "Connection fee" for being connected is fine obviously provided it's not whacko. But surcharges if you have solar, grid tied or not and other such moronic things are ludicrous.

 

[wattmatters]

My friend Ramel is capable. Former cell service tech. Phone call. But honestly? My solar power system didn’t know I had covid in December and just kept working

That's good to know. But my point wasn't directed at you specifically (although it read that way), I was just using it as an example.

These are things you have to think about when going off-grid. Already we have people on this thread telling us they are stockpiling spare panels, inverters, cable and sundry equipment. They will need to have all the tools and equipment necessary for repair or installation as well.

But backup for the equipment isn't enough. We also need backup for ourselves.

If the local grid goes down, well there is an army of contractors and/or staff who are deployed/employed to fix it. If Fred is off work due to injury, well they call in someone else to the job. But when you are off-grid then you are exposed to your own self being in good shape. Not everyone will be in good shape for ever. I'm an amputee and do OK, managed to get on the roof to put up a small array. But eventually I'll probably be wheelchair bound. If I need to fix an array or replace an inverter, well I'm going to be waiting for an installer to do the fix. And that will likely take weeks to months, e.g. right now there's a 3-4 week wait to get an electrician just to do some straightforward circuit board work I need sorting (our code prohibits DIY for such a supply, even if you are off-grid).

 

[Koldsimer]

That's good to know. But my point wasn't directed at you specifically (although it read that way), I was just using it as an example.

These are things you have to think about when going off-grid. Already we have people on this thread telling us they are stockpiling spare panels, inverters, cable and sundry equipment. They will need to have all the tools and equipment necessary for repair or installation as well.

But backup for the equipment isn't enough. We also need backup for ourselves.

If the local grid goes down, well there is an army of contractors and/or staff who are deployed/employed to fix it. If Fred is off work due to injury, well they call in someone else to the job. But when you are off-grid then you are exposed to your own self being in good shape. Not everyone will be in good shape for ever. I'm an amputee and do OK, managed to get on the roof to put up a small array. But eventually I'll probably be wheelchair bound. If I need to fix an array or replace an inverter, well I'm going to be waiting for an installer to do the fix. And that will likely take weeks to months, e.g. right now there's a 3-4 week wait to get an electrician just to do some straightforward circuit board work I need sorting (our code prohibits DIY for such a supply, even if you are off-grid).

Excellent points. Honestly i hate thinking about the position i would leave my wife and father in if i wasn't able to take care of these systems. I've tried to give them both a working knowledge, but they just don't get 98.2% of what's going on.