Cons of going off grid?

[wattmatters]

Honestly i hate thinking about the position i would leave my wife and father in if i wasn't able to take care of these systems. I've tried to give them both a working knowledge, but they just don't get 98.2% of what's going on.

My little off-grid system is a backup power supply to the grid.

It was in part inspired by a need to make the job of switching to backup as simple as possible for my wife.

We have an electric start generator (still do) we used for backup but if I was not here she was just not going to get it going without at least some phone help.

I wrote some instructions with pictures but honestly, there are so many small things you take for granted that when you document them in a manner anyone without knowledge could follow and not screw up, you realise it's just better to work on simplifying the process to begin with.

Currently all she (and I) need do is flip one switch. That's it, backup power operating. I could automate that switch at some stage but for now it is manual.

 

[nogridhome]

I'm not aware of any laws preventing a homeowner from disconnecting from the grid. The Amish don't have electricity, and under that precedent, such considerations would probably fall under "Equal protection under the law" which is in the 14th Amendment.

From all the reading I've done, the people who claim they were forced to have grid power are always living in a shack, feeding their children raw milk and untreated rainwater, and usually not very credible.

The government can't force you to purchase electricity, at least not that I'm aware of.

The biggest obstacle to being off grid full time is the cost of having a sufficient amount of battery/energy storage.

Personally, I think its economically foolish to go off grid. I could do it, we have 11kw of solar, 25kWh of lithium, and two Sunny Islands.. and we're forced off grid a few times a year for a week at a time when storms come through.. But staying off grid? No way.. Its not that I couldn't do it, its that I'd be wasting my money. Grid power is still the cheapest available..

100% agree! Being off-grid is not about saving money. It is more about feedom and self reliance. I am however 100% off the "power" grid. I do have a LP tank (this mean on am on the propane grid) It would make life harsh but I could live without propane. I love it! FREEDOM from control and tyranny!!!

 

[nogridhome]

First post so please go easy.

Ive been using 2 2kw GTIL inverters for a couple years now as my system grows (I know they catch a lot of flack, but they actually work really well). We recently had a decent snow storm roll in and I decided to switch over to my pair of MPP Solar 3048lv-mk's. I did this to protect my grid tie inverters in the case of a surge, and to make sure my greenhouse didn't lose power to its heaters while I was asleep knowing damn well the temps would be pretty cold at night, and it could have produced some decent freezing rain.

I am now 5 days in with my main breaker off and really haven't changed my lifestyle at all. Even my girlfriend says she often forgets we are off grid, and my project not being a pain to her is a requirement of mine. My setup isn't crazy, I am running 4kw of panels, 21 KWH of DIY Li-ion batteries, a Midnite solar classic 150, and the 6kw of inverters I mentioned before. Along with adding solar I have made some changes to the house to reduce my load such as re-insulating the attic and swapping the water heater with a heat pump water heater that I will be ducting into the house in the summer, and here soon I will be adding a small geothermal A/C to my house.

Being 5 days into this it has made me rethink even being connected to the grid. The reason I am turning to you guys is 1, there are many of you with real world experience, and 2, I have concerns that I would like to talk over with people here. Convenience is a huge factor to me for my girlfriend like I said before, I know myself and I will happily heat water on the wood stove for a bath to achieve my goals, but that doesn't go over well for everyone...

With summer around the corner I will be obviously using the A/C more, my greenhouse fans will be running much more often, and my well pump will be working more to water the plants for the farm. I don't plan on going off grid fully until I actually fully test out a summer with this setup, but I can't help but wonder what other issues I could run into.

My question for you guys is should I continue with my GTIL setup to offset my cost and just have the MPP inverters there in case of a power out situation? Or is it worth saving the $20 or so a month to call my power company and tell them to cut me off, sell the GTIL's and add more MPP inverters? What other considerations should I have other than summer power usage and potential (normal) failures?

Thank you all in advance.

My biggest load is my air conditioning. When it is 100 degrees and 80 at night it really taxes the power plant to run AC all night. I have determined that your PV will provide around 4 x your panel rating. (This is GENERAL AVERAGE) So your 4kw PV will generate 16kw in a day. I prefer to size my system so you have more PV than storage. Plan to add PV before you get serious about disconnecting the power company. Well Done!!!

 

[12VoltInstalls]

FREEDOM from control and tyranny!!!

How did you eliminate property taxes?

 

[nogridhome]

How did you eliminate property taxes?

Not many things get past me, but that is one bill I just pay (while holding my nose and closing my eyes).

 

[RV10flyer]

That’s a little bit of ignorant stereotyping right there. Fairly ignorant actually.

Grouping all people who _____ into a class you despise without knowing anything about them. It might fit some people but not all. Not most of the people I know that modify trucks or jeeps or whatever. People who build jeeps or trucks or dragsters or fishing boats might be rural, live in a hick town, or a posh city neighborhood, or a resort town like Stowe.

To those “dump of a town” residents it’s home and - I’m thinking some specific people- some of those folks young and old can buy whatever they want and write a check.

You hit me wrong; one of your favorite little dump-town hicks I know dresses in mechanic’s uniform green, has a big truck, always looks a bit rough…and owns a multimillion dollar business, a beautiful giant home on hundreds of acres, a cigarette boat, and his own airplane. No debt.

I live in a rural town on a road that dates to the revolutionary war. If I drive south there’s pavement in a few miles. I can’t drive north right now cuz the road is closed for the winter. And I’d need my modified jeep to drive the 10 miles north to pavement in summer. I have solar and don’t care who looks at my jeep or doesn’t- I built it for me not other people. Who by the way are neither better nor lesser than me.

We all have our own priorities. Most people are not into expensive things that are not visible for others to see or hear. Solar is one.

 

[LunarEstates]

First post so please go easy.

Ive been using 2 2kw GTIL inverters for a couple years now as my system grows (I know they catch a lot of flack, but they actually work really well). We recently had a decent snow storm roll in and I decided to switch over to my pair of MPP Solar 3048lv-mk's. I did this to protect my grid tie inverters in the case of a surge, and to make sure my greenhouse didn't lose power to its heaters while I was asleep knowing damn well the temps would be pretty cold at night, and it could have produced some decent freezing rain.

I am now 5 days in with my main breaker off and really haven't changed my lifestyle at all. Even my girlfriend says she often forgets we are off grid, and my project not being a pain to her is a requirement of mine. My setup isn't crazy, I am running 4kw of panels, 21 KWH of DIY Li-ion batteries, a Midnite solar classic 150, and the 6kw of inverters I mentioned before. Along with adding solar I have made some changes to the house to reduce my load such as re-insulating the attic and swapping the water heater with a heat pump water heater that I will be ducting into the house in the summer, and here soon I will be adding a small geothermal A/C to my house.

Being 5 days into this it has made me rethink even being connected to the grid. The reason I am turning to you guys is 1, there are many of you with real world experience, and 2, I have concerns that I would like to talk over with people here. Convenience is a huge factor to me for my girlfriend like I said before, I know myself and I will happily heat water on the wood stove for a bath to achieve my goals, but that doesn't go over well for everyone...

With summer around the corner I will be obviously using the A/C more, my greenhouse fans will be running much more often, and my well pump will be working more to water the plants for the farm. I don't plan on going off grid fully until I actually fully test out a summer with this setup, but I can't help but wonder what other issues I could run into.

My question for you guys is should I continue with my GTIL setup to offset my cost and just have the MPP inverters there in case of a power out situation? Or is it worth saving the $20 or so a month to call my power company and tell them to cut me off, sell the GTIL's and add more MPP inverters? What other considerations should I have other than summer power usage and potential (normal) failures?

Thank you all in advance.

if it’s only $20/mo to stay grid tied and have a back up I’d call that very cheap insurance.

We have solar and hydro and have had a horrendously dry rain season. The generator was going for most of November and there are days where we run the generator to get enough juice to do laundry.

If I had the option to pay $20 to get a grid tied back up I’d definitely consider it. Not only would it increase my property value but with battery shortages and supply chain wackiness who knows what situation you could end up in.

 

[Steve_S]

Ohh I have to play the Devil's Advocate on the flip side here. Being offgrid and no powerlines for Quite a Distance (they wanted 55K to get wire here). I have 7 Days worth of Battery storage (I am rural/remote & can be snowed in for days (happens too) so not for fun & entertainment. I can put Genset on for 8 Hours starting at 0% SOC (Inverter actually having disconnected for Low Voltage), which provides me with 3 Day Runtime off battery while still providing passthrough to house. I LOVE LFP ! Would one view that as a Property Value Increase ? Likely yes I would think.

 

[wattmatters]

Would one view that as a Property Value Increase ? Likely yes I would think.

Are you saying becoming grid connected would lower the property's value?

 

[Steve_S]

WOW, the Art of Reframing, lemme guess you've been exposed to a Gaslighting individual for a long time and picked that up eh...
That is NOT WHAT I SAID !

In my kind of situation having a large bank that can carry on life uninterrupted IS a Selling point, compared to the alternative.
IF Grid power was "Available" and connected that would likely also be seen as a Value and help with property resale.
Mind you, the way Power is handled HERE in this Province, it can be debated whether or not it's a good thing, especially out here. The devolution applied to Ontario Hydro which broke it up and privatized delivery (Hydro One Corp) away from Generation has only messed up the grid and raised costs to clients astronomically and reliability has decreased exponentially.

 

[LunarEstates]

WOW, the Art of Reframing, lemme guess you've been exposed to a Gaslighting individual for a long time and picked that up eh...
That is NOT WHAT I SAID !

In my kind of situation having a large bank that can carry on life uninterrupted IS a Selling point, compared to the alternative.
IF Grid power was "Available" and connected that would likely also be seen as a Value and help with property resale.
Mind you, the way Power is handled HERE in this Province, it can be debated whether or not it's a good thing, especially out here. The devolution applied to Ontario Hydro which broke it up and privatized delivery (Hydro One Corp) away from Generation has only messed up the grid and raised costs to clients astronomically and reliability has decreased exponentially.

Absolutely. Having both is a value increase.

I was under the impression that the OP already had a battery bank with substantial capacity and was wondering whether they should disconnect.

 

[wattmatters]

WOW, the Art of Reframing, lemme guess you've been exposed to a Gaslighting individual for a long time and picked that up eh...
That is NOT WHAT I SAID !

Not my intention. I was seeking to clarify.

The thread title is "Cons of going off-grid". This implies being on-grid to start with.

I agree a property which has no grid to begin with but has on-site power will have more value that a property with no power supply at all.

But your statement made me wonder if for some reason being connected to the grid would ever be considered a devaluing factor. I can't think of when that might be the case but am open to listen/understand why that could be.

The devolution applied to Ontario Hydro which broke it up and privatized delivery (Hydro One Corp) away from Generation has only messed up the grid and raised costs to clients astronomically and reliability has decreased exponentially.

I hear you. The power supply sector was largely privatised and broken into three main sectors here in Australia; generation, distribution and retail. Companies are permitted to be both generators and retailers ("gentailers") but not distributors, while distributors are not permitted to be either generators nor retailers. Most formerly state govt owned enterprises were sold off.

Distributors are still highly regulated monopolies (makes sense since there's little point having multiple sets of poles and wires) but the generation section and especially the retail sector are pretty competitive. Where I am there are perhaps 40 retailers to choose from, all with their own take of pricing models and tariff plans (there are nearly a thousand retail plans to choose from). It requires a masters degree in Excel to be able to reasonable compare retail offerings to assess which are the lowest cost options.

Overall I think the benefits of "competition" for the consumer have been outweighed by the multiple extra layers of management and private sector costs (executive costs and profit margin). But electricity prices have not particularly blown out.

I don't think reliability is any different. It will be tested in the decade ahead as more coal power stations retire from the generation fleet and our renewable generation sector ramps up. I guess it depends on the reasons for your lack of reliability. Generation reliability and distribution reliability are different things. We get regular outages but that's mostly storm related, local power lines brought down by trees etc. They do a pretty good job with maintenance and repair but we pay a hefty price for it. Distribution costs make up ~3/5ths of the bill. Energy itself is pretty cheap. Delivering it to consumers across a vast continent is not. I can imagine Canada has similar challenges on that front to Australia.

 

[AgroVenturesPeru]

Getting back to the original question, to me the cons of going off-grid are:

1. Capital costs. Many don't have the upfront $ required. Paying a smaller regular amount to have a service is often easier.

2. You are now solely responsible for the upkeep, maintenance and operational performance of the (micro) grid you've installed. If that requires a professional to sort something out or ordering a key replacement component, it may be none are available at short notice and you are SOL until they are.

3. Capacity constraints - in general the grid is more capable of delivering higher capacity more easily. Building an off-grid system means scoping the system for whatever peak/surge power demand you have which can be very costly, or being unable to use the same appliances or use them in the manner you could with the grid.

4. A requirement to change your energy demand habits and profile. This will likely involve changing the way you live, and/or changing the way you consume energy. It may mean use of alternatives to electrical energy sources which may be less environmentally friendly. It also likely means replacing appliances well before the end of their useful lives. And it just might be your home is entirely unsuitable for off-grid conversion, at least not in any financially rational sense.

5. The grid where you are may already be low carbon emissions grid. Going off-grid isn't going to make much environmental difference.

6. The grid where you are may be a high carbon emissions grid. In which case removing solar PV capacity from being able to be fed into the grid means less renewable energy is available overall. Your off-grid system will only produce based on your demand and not its full capacity. When on grid that excess renewable energy may be exported and will be used by others as well as offset fossil fuel generation.

7. Financial - there's no guarantee going off-grid is going to be financially beneficial. It can be but it's certainly no given, and many fail to account for various ongoing costs, or the cost involved in making the energy consumption changes necessary. That monthly fee you were paying the utility? You'll need to have something similar put away for when you need it.

8. You may not have sufficient space to generate enough energy and may end up using more fossil fuels for backup and redundancy than you realise.

9. Property values may be lower for a home without grid connection. While you might love the idea of being off-grid, many prospective buyers would not when they have the option of surrounding properties with a grid connection.

Of course there is a list of pros to going off-grid as well, but that wasn't the question.

And not all of the above cons apply in every case.

I think this is a great summary. Especially the second point. The OP sounds somewhat technical, but if you're paying someone else to do the install and have no idea about the topic yourself, you might be in for a world of trouble later on.

Also, it depends on how "off-grid" you are planning to be. It's not just electricity. Water, plumbing, and waste management are some other considerations.

How far are you to the nearest population center?

We live 40min to the nearest small city, but even in that city there is a serious lack of talent. I couldn't find anyone here that knew how to install my solar components. Therefore, I decided to learn everything myself. It was a good thing I did, because everything (and the word "everything" might not be an exaggeration) else we paid local people to do, and everything else has caused us headaches.

I have no background in construction, plumbing, electrical, solar or anything along those lines. Life is hard. Especially when people have the sort of attitude: "Oh, you actually wanted me to do a good job!?" Some have bad intentions, others are just incompetent, or a combination of both. And that is when we can actually get someone to come out here at all. Some just feel the 40min drive is too far (a cultural thing I guess...40min is nothing in the USA). So we're often stuck with the desperate if we can find anyone at all.

Since moving here and attempting this lifestyle we've been taken for a ride way too many times. Not sure if this sort of thing would be so common place in somewhere like the USA, but I like to thing it has something to do with the society here.

Here's our latest debacle courtesy of a dishonest person with no reason to ever deal with customers:

 

[LazyDragon]

To the OP: KEEP THE UTILITY POWER! For $20/mo, it is the cheapest backup power you can get. I just finished my first winter off grid. Dealing with the generator for backup power is a hassle, noisy, not spouse friendly and expensive option. Just the cost of a decent $1000 generator would pay for 4 years of $20/mo backup access. Then you can buy power when you need it, at a fraction of the cost of generator produced power.

You will spend a lot of extra time with generator hassles. How much is your time worth?

If your whole solar system blows up tomorrow, you can be back on utility power in 10 minutes. The ultimate backup option.

 

[JRH]

First post so please go easy.

Ive been using 2 2kw GTIL inverters for a couple years now as my system grows (I know they catch a lot of flack, but they actually work really well). We recently had a decent snow storm roll in and I decided to switch over to my pair of MPP Solar 3048lv-mk's. I did this to protect my grid tie inverters in the case of a surge, and to make sure my greenhouse didn't lose power to its heaters while I was asleep knowing damn well the temps would be pretty cold at night, and it could have produced some decent freezing rain.

I am now 5 days in with my main breaker off and really haven't changed my lifestyle at all. Even my girlfriend says she often forgets we are off grid, and my project not being a pain to her is a requirement of mine. My setup isn't crazy, I am running 4kw of panels, 21 KWH of DIY Li-ion batteries, a Midnite solar classic 150, and the 6kw of inverters I mentioned before. Along with adding solar I have made some changes to the house to reduce my load such as re-insulating the attic and swapping the water heater with a heat pump water heater that I will be ducting into the house in the summer, and here soon I will be adding a small geothermal A/C to my house.

Being 5 days into this it has made me rethink even being connected to the grid. The reason I am turning to you guys is 1, there are many of you with real world experience, and 2, I have concerns that I would like to talk over with people here. Convenience is a huge factor to me for my girlfriend like I said before, I know myself and I will happily heat water on the wood stove for a bath to achieve my goals, but that doesn't go over well for everyone...

With summer around the corner I will be obviously using the A/C more, my greenhouse fans will be running much more often, and my well pump will be working more to water the plants for the farm. I don't plan on going off grid fully until I actually fully test out a summer with this setup, but I can't help but wonder what other issues I could run into.

My question for you guys is should I continue with my GTIL setup to offset my cost and just have the MPP inverters there in case of a power out situation? Or is it worth saving the $20 or so a month to call my power company and tell them to cut me off, sell the GTIL's and add more MPP inverters? What other considerations should I have other than summer power usage and potential (normal) failures?

Thank you all in advance.

I say this with all respect, with all you have going and a working system, and success with a partner and are warm in the winter and seem happy, you actually want to involve the regional power company in your personal life and business and expose yourself to be noticed and possibly singled out …NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Do what you can to be or stay grey…..the inspections dept in many places is becoming a huge money maker for that county or city, it’s like traffic violations , they want that money down at city hall. I know of people fined crazy money PER DAY for bucking the system On solar and water issues….
if you try to dodge or play games with them ,you can become a target .. now it’s fun to mess with you… those cats are on a power trip anyway … you don’t want a fight with with them.
“ it’s a slow day, lets go to lunch and ride by ole slippery Joe’s house and see what he’s up to”

Live life quietly and privately in todays world…it’s geared against working , normal , productive ,individualistic , citizens anymore…that’s all I will say on this topic.
An old Billy Joel song said it best on how to survive the world ,“ don’t ask for favors , don’t talk to strangers, don’t ask me why”……
Jim.

 

[MattiFin]

Sounds like cheap redundancy for when your own system has a failure or requires maintenance.

THIS above all. 20 dollars per month is really cheap for reliable back-up power. I doubt you can do cheaper than that.

would be different situation of monthly fee was 200 usd or powerco was asking for 20000 usd for new connection at new site.

 

[JRH]

THIS above all. 20 dollars per month is really cheap for reliable back-up power. I doubt you can do cheaper than that.

would be different situation of monthly fee was 200 usd or powerco was asking for 20000 usd for new connection at new site.

I totally agree with you . I was speaking of the scenario where you had to re-apply for permits OR start from scratch and pay the fees you mentioned..It’s difficult to present every option in all comments and in the case you present, it’s the best deal to have . The more options ,the better,and if your already in the game for a low price ,then be quiet ,and stay in it.
Every situation is different. Every person and their needs are different. Every agency, county and their rules are different . Everyone with a white safety hat and a clip board that shows up to your job site is different…some are helpful…… and some are Lucifer…!
No one will ever argue with having a 20 dollar back up plan..The best Insurence in the world.
Jim.

 

[shot428]

Rural Colorado here, nearest small town 5 miles, nearest Walmart 30 miles, monthly fee for transformer is $39.00 (and yes if not paid they come and take the transformer off the pole) We're currently on grid, I suppose it's like the equipment fee for cable/satellite, but have never considered not paying it

As for property taxes they go away if you're 65 and have lived in your home for 10 years (I'm 65)
https://www.denvergov.org/Governmen...ssessors-Office/Senior-Property-Tax-Exemption

 

[Ampster]

.the inspections dept in many places is becoming a huge money maker for that county or city,

One of the things I did not see mentioned is that in some jurisdictions, if there is power available you must have a connection for safety reasons according to some building codes. There is nothing that requires you to use that connection. As mentioned earlier in that case, even if there is a small fee, it might be practical to have a connection.

 

[OffGridForGood]

for 20 bucks a month, sounds like cheap back up system to me. I vote keep it and use it when you need it.