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consequences of a throwaway society?

efficientPV

Solar Addict
Joined
Sep 24, 2019
Messages
1,329
You bring your car in to be fixed. Next week something else goes wrong with the engine and its their fault. You can get married to any repair. If someone is local, I fix their stuff. Shipping anything now costs more than the repair. There is no upside to dealing with strangers.
 
Something seems wrong when it is cheaper to buy an entire new X then replace a small part of X.
Parts bin, economy of scale, shipping, inventory and labor time do not crossover well from manufacturing. On the other hand, I can buy pigtailed 2-diode lensed LEDs in a six pak for <$10, but the only ‘fixture’ using anything close to these is part of furniture or cabinetry that retails in the thousands yet I’ve never seen them as replacement parts!?

Everything is intended to be one-time use.

In the 1960s a VW bug needed constant maintenance. Replace heads at 50k-miles, lubing hinges every 2k-miles, brake adjustments etc etc. People developed the idea they were junk. YET if you did the factory maintenance the little car would last just about forever and the cost over time was very, very low. Most people didn’t do the maintenance and just bought Chevy vegas or datsun b210s

Today many countries mandate obsolescence and in the us we just go for the next thing we can finance

Can you imagine today if you could buy a beetle with crash technology, battery technology, resin technologies, etc and support the car with parts in perpetuity?! Eh, probably nobody but me would buy it. The closest thing is maybe tesla but that’s not economy-car priced. And certainly not intended to last for 25 years
 
Parts bin, economy of scale, shipping, inventory and labor time do not crossover well from manufacturing. On the other hand, I can buy pigtailed 2-diode lensed LEDs in a six pak for <$10, but the only ‘fixture’ using anything close to these is part of furniture or cabinetry that retails in the thousands yet I’ve never seen them as replacement parts!?

Everything is intended to be one-time use.

In the 1960s a VW bug needed constant maintenance. Replace heads at 50k-miles, lubing hinges every 2k-miles, brake adjustments etc etc. People developed the idea they were junk. YET if you did the factory maintenance the little car would last just about forever and the cost over time was very, very low. Most people didn’t do the maintenance and just bought Chevy vegas or datsun b210s

Today many countries mandate obsolescence and in the us we just go for the next thing we can finance

Can you imagine today if you could buy a beetle with crash technology, battery technology, resin technologies, etc and support the car with parts in perpetuity?! Eh, probably nobody but me would buy it. The closest thing is maybe tesla but that’s not economy-car priced. And certainly not intended to last for 25 years
The problem with that is who wants to drive a 60s beetle...36hp IIRC. The technology progression which complicated automobiles also made them more powerful, better handling, better MPG, and above all, lower emissions. All cars of the 60s polluted even if kept in tune. Those that were neglected polluted horribly. The complex systems of modern cars also makes them pollute far less.
I know what youre saying. From 1998-2002 I owned a 65 cadillac hearse with a 429. Pop the hood and there was nothing but a carb, a distributor, and a coil. The only smog equipment was the PCV valve, and since the rings were worn that was removed and in its place was a hose that ran under the car. Easy to work on but a million of these driving around caused lots of smog.

hearse05.jpg
 
problem with that is who wants to drive a 60s beetle...36hp IIRC
You completely missed the point.
100% missed it.

Technology as an improvement is nearly irrelevant to my point. Making things serviceable and last a long time is nearly extinct. Tesla is the flyer on longevity of automotive systems and most of America can’t afford one. (yet)

Disposable designs and renaming expenses as desirable - instead of replace “we” say upgrade, like it’s an improvement. NO! It’s an expense for a not very durable product. An upgrade would be a tercel to a tesla. A replacement of a tercel with another tercel- just newer- is an expense, not an upgrade.

The point was serviceability and longevity as a result, and that the post-modern consumer is foolish.
 
You completely missed the point.
100% missed it.

Technology as an improvement is nearly irrelevant to my point. Making things serviceable and last a long time is nearly extinct. Tesla is the flyer on longevity of automotive systems and most of America can’t afford one. (yet)

Disposable designs and renaming expenses as desirable - instead of replace “we” say upgrade, like it’s an improvement. NO! It’s an expense for a not very durable product. An upgrade would be a tercel to a tesla. A replacement of a tercel with another tercel- just newer- is an expense, not an upgrade.

The point was serviceability and longevity as a result, and that the post-modern consumer is foolish.
Is it repairable has gone away? Or are today's drivers unable and unwilling to learn what it takes to repair? Both im sure, many vehicles are built to prevent the average mechanic from fixability, but repair should be ok...
 
Is it repairable has gone away? Or are today's drivers unable and unwilling to learn what it takes to repair? Both im sure, many vehicles are built to prevent the average mechanic from fixability, but repair should be ok...
Its both!
This is soon going to have to change as the sustainability of a throw away society is the next thing going on the chopping block of the green movement. It's already happening!
Just make new items expensive and more and more people start to repair items or buy second hand items and get them repaired.
It boils my blood when I see some of the Junk that is manufactured. I got a can opener once that opened one can before the handle broke off. The amount of energy used to make that can opener was probably the same as what would have been used to make one that lasted 5 years. It's just a case of cheapening out on some of the alloy mixtures to save a few cents. This madness has got to stop.
 
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You completely missed the point.
100% missed it.

Technology as an improvement is nearly irrelevant to my point. Making things serviceable and last a long time is nearly extinct. Tesla is the flyer on longevity of automotive systems and most of America can’t afford one. (yet)

Disposable designs and renaming expenses as desirable - instead of replace “we” say upgrade, like it’s an improvement. NO! It’s an expense for a not very durable product. An upgrade would be a tercel to a tesla. A replacement of a tercel with another tercel- just newer- is an expense, not an upgrade.

The point was serviceability and longevity as a result, and that the post-modern consumer is foolish.
You seemed to have equally missed my point. Simple cars polluted, a lot. Cutting emissions required complex systems. You can put that 1960 beetle on a pedestal as ideal for its serviceability by the consumer but cleaning up the air became a bigger priority. Technology had to happen and as far as longetivity you show me how many 1960 beetles went 250,000 miles before an engine rebuild. Thats common in modern cars. Cars dont need tuneups now just new plugs at 100k. Yeah theyre complex to repair but you dont need to dick around with a points distributor every 5k miles.
 
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Is it repairable has gone away? Or are today's drivers unable and unwilling to learn what it takes to repair? Both im sure, many vehicles are built to prevent the average mechanic from fixability, but repair should be ok...
Todays drivers cant drive a stick and call aaa to change a tire. I carry a plug kit and small compressor and fix it on the car. Plugs last forever if done right BTW.
 
Simple cars polluted
You are still 100% missing the point. I’d say 110% missing the point but all the way there is actually 100%

Emissions are irrelevant to my point. Low emission gasoline powered vehicles could still be manufactured to be serviceable; planned obsolescence is refined snd perfected and we can’t even repair an iphone that works fine but merely requires a new $8 battery.

The cultural affectation of current trends is most familiarly manifested for display in The Running Man and The Hunger Games. Harbingers in a hollywood flavor of a theme parallel with 1984.
 
You are still 100% missing the point. I’d say 110% missing the point but all the way there is actually 100%

Emissions are irrelevant to my point. Low emission gasoline powered vehicles could still be manufactured to be serviceable; planned obsolescence is refined snd perfected and we can’t even repair an iphone that works fine but merely requires a new $8 battery.

The cultural affectation of current trends is most familiarly manifested for display in The Running Man and The Hunger Games. Harbingers in a hollywood flavor of a theme parallel with 1984.
Well if you think low emissions full efficient vehicles can be designed so the average joe can service them... and think Iphones with easily replaceable batteries are feasible, you are certainly free to compete with apple and toyota.
While I am not going to argue that planned obsolescense doesnt happen, you seem to be promoting a technology standstil and the idea that companies should make things that last forever.
That iphone 4 was good enough for you, the 1960 beetle was all you needed from a car. Why should you have to replace it?
Meanwhile millions of people want 5g and streaming video and multiplayer gaming with no latency... things that old iphone cant do. You cant even update to the current IOS because theres not enough memory. The battery was good for the same duration as the original IOS and feature set.
Planned obsolescense is what keeps companies in business. If 65 mustangs lasted forever Ford would no longer exist.
I knew a guy who was a line tech at a chevy dealer. He told me how S10 pickups would all grenade around 60k miles, and good salesmen sold their fleet customers S15s if they wanted to keep them. He said its easy to engineer a truck that lasted forever. Easy to engineer one that lasted a month. But it takes expert engineering to make one that completely falls apart a few months after the warranty expires.
 
you seem to be promoting a technology standstil and the idea that companies should make things that last forever.
That iphone 4 was good enough for you, the 1960 beetle was all you needed from a car. Why should you have to replace it?
Planned obsolescense is what keeps companies in business. If 65 mustangs lasted forever Ford would no longer exist.
You are on a soap box and while there, putting words in my mouth.

Does your mechanic have Walmart and HF tools? No, probably not. Durability, warranty, standing the test of time and use: that is value, a thing people used to look for in products. They fixed things.

Ford would be fine building durable products, just maybe not as many new ones and perhaps more parts.

It’s hilarious you don’t see the foolishness in obsoleting products! And you defend it on a website forum that has done a remarkable job of helping newbies and experienced alike build safe, durable, long-lasting battery packs for 20+ year lifespan solar systems. If it weren’t for the durable value over time lifepo wouldn’t even have much besides big amp outputs as a benefit.

Why is epever promoted? It’s not top-shelf equipment… but it does last at a value price. Further, the schmancy-brand equipment? It’s worth buying because it lasts a long time. And performs well.
With your perspective epever will triple in price and last two years.

New isn’t necessarily progress.
 
The throw away society seems to be a natural progression to me. Automation of manufacturing has made most produces incredibly inexpensive to acquire. To manually repair these items is exceeding costly in most circumstances that a new item is lower cost.

How long would it take to build a car by hand? How many man hours? No one could afford it. Diagnose and repair anything major puts it in the scrap bin for parts or recycling.

And yes the systems are so integrated one failure can cascade to other systems for false diagnosis or additional issues.
 
throw away society seems to be a natural progression to me
There’s an element of truth there.

But seriously: that doesn’t have to be. You can buy quality in many things from stainless tableware, to fishing reels, inverters, diesels like caterpillar, clothing, to even chain saws. Even tesla but that’s not positioned as ‘commodity.’

So I’m totally with the progress of economy of scale and efficiency leveraged manufacturing.

But our world has configured itself to provision corporations and the downstream supply-chain with increasing frequency replacement sales of goods. I’m not against capitalistic economies, I’m just against short-sighted cultural acceptance of replacement of formerly durable goods.

As consumers we’ve unwisely accepted this to our short-term benefit and long-term regret. As manufacturers or ‘brands’ we’ve accepted low-quality in exchange for immediate profits that aren’t available long-term if you lose the market’s favorable opinion. Ya, online killed sears but they gave online a head start by both drifting from past corporate values and ineffective adaptation to the post-modern evolution of the market. (If that weren’t true the successful brick’n’mortars that survived wouldn’t still be here; many companies have worked it from Home Depot to walmartha to old nahvy)

What we’ve lost is the value of repairing a quality item. That’s not a requirement it’s a marketing approach. Controlled incremental profit at price points as opposed to brand loyalty for sound reasons
 
What we’ve lost is the value of repairing a quality item. That’s not a requirement it’s a marketing approach. Controlled incremental profit at price points as opposed to brand loyalty for sound reasons
What we have lost in repairing a quality item is a much lower price. If things are to be built the old way the cost could be much higher and forget the digital controls we love today.

Often enough I am OK when something breaks as I have already been looking for something new, better looking and better features. Why rebuild the transmission on a 35 year old wash machine with two cycles and terrible efficiency? Who wants the danger of an old wringer?

Regardless of quality, things still have a useful life that ends. Otherwise most vehicles from the 1960s would still be on the road. But how do you retrofit with safer glass, cruise control, air bags, even lap and shoulder belts. Nostalgia is great but it comes a time to move on.

I am not sure old things were even that great. Possibly our memory filter longs for a simpler life of yesteryear when the truth is things were hard back then too.
 
am not sure old things were even that great. Possibly our memory filter longs for a simpler life of yesteryear when the truth is things were hard back then too.
That’s a book I’d like to write. The cultural, economic, and familial aspects of the hard past are very different than today.
 
You bring your car in to be fixed. Next week something else goes wrong with the engine and its their fault. You can get married to any repair. If someone is local, I fix their stuff. Shipping anything now costs more than the repair. There is no upside to dealing with strangers.
I'm not sure I fully follow your point.
  • Regarding engine repair - are you saying you should not take it in for repair but should do the repair yourself?
  • Regarding shipping vs repair - are you saying that shipping PLUS the new part is more cost than repair of the old part?
 
YET if you did the factory maintenance the little car would last just about forever and the cost over time was very, very low.
A lot of VW bugs were produced in Mexico, and they kept making them long after they stopped being produced in the U.S. In Acapulco one entire fleet of taxis uses bugs. (Vocho in Spanish) They seem to still have parts, and they keep them running, one way or another.
Today many countries mandate obsolescence and in the us we just go for the next thing we can finance
Which countries? I couldn't find any specific mandates (outside of individual incidents)
 
not sure I fully follow your point
That’s the original post in the thread

He’s a mechanic complaining about customers that do not understand vehicle mechanics and make him responsible for unrelated new problems that occur soon after a “repair” because he’s replacing some component, not a mechanical repair.

I see his point, but I also see where high-cost consumer items have in effect personified Oliver Wendell Holmes’ Deacon And His Masterpiece, a harbinger coming to fruition over a century and a half of time.
 
You seemed to have equally missed my point. Simple cars polluted, a lot. Cutting emissions required complex systems. You can put that 1960 beetle on a pedestal as ideal for its serviceability by the consumer but cleaning up the air became a bigger priority. Technology had to happen and as far as longetivity you show me how many 1960 beetles went 250,000 miles before an engine rebuild. Thats common in modern cars. Cars dont need tuneups now just new plugs at 100k. Yeah theyre complex to repair but you dont need to dick around with a points distributor every 5k miles.
This is an excellent point. I drove a Tercel from around 100k to 200k miles (bought it used). Repaired and/or replaced the alternator, thermostat, even a fender. We were loyal Honda and Toyota owners for many years because of their amazing longevity and durability. But my wife's favorite car *ever* was a little Ford Escort wagon (3rd gen. I think) - I don't remember ever making a repair on it. It just ran forever. But now? Hell, almost *any* vehicle, even American-made cars, will go 100k before you start getting into any serious maintenance costs.
 
Planned obsolescense is what keeps companies in business. If 65 mustangs lasted forever Ford would no longer exist.
I'll have to disagree on that one. They *could* exist, however, their growth and profit would be at lower levels. If you believe that higher growth trajectories are essential, then yeah, obsolescence is required. The problem really is the mindset that high growth and high profit are the target.

One other factor. Durability generally requires more expense, from engineering and design to parts and assembly. If companies made both durable and non-durable products, the cheaper products would outsell the more expensive, durable products 10-1 easy.
 
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