• Have you tried out dark mode?! Scroll to the bottom of any page to find a sun or moon icon to turn dark mode on or off!

diy solar

diy solar

Cycling Degradation VS Calendar Aging w/ LiFePO4 Batteries Used for Solar Application

Most likely it's good for longevity as long as you don't get lithium plating from charging too fast at temps too low. But at solar fractions of C rates you are probably safe. You really don't want to charge beyond 3.5v/cell near freezing or below at any C rate. Big damage happens. Here is LFP charging at -10°C. Source
View attachment 256931
Thanks,
No danger of near freezing - 15 degrees is the low temp (after hours, weekends) set point for the climate controls in the shop, but as I said could be changed - just costs money.
Typically the cells temps are a few degrees higher than the low set point - since the daytime set point warms up again to 19-20 C for 7AM - 5PM Mon to Fri.
The new ESS I am building right now is in fact an alcove/closet type of arrangement with insulated walls - I will be able to easily control temps for the closet area if 15-degrees is too low, but appears it is ok.
 
Last edited:
I don't hear the cooling system come on when the car is idle...

On the topic of the Tesla and EVs with LFP cells, where I live there's tonnes of other Teslas and EVs, many of which would be parked outside, exposed to much higher ambient temps so what do these results mean for EVs which are subject to higher temps and their cooling systems aren't running when parked?
Tesla does not do active cooling of the battery when the car is parked and not plugged in. The "Cabin Overheat Protection" is only for the safety of living things in the cabin, although there's widespread misconception that it's necessary for battery health or screen health. They have tried to correct this misconception with limited success.

re. Cars parked outside in the sun will have higher degradation, but it is highly unlikely to reach the warrantied 70% threshold in 8 years. There's 2 reasons for this: the average annual temperature is typically not super high, while calendar aging will generally halve every year. Let's say a car loses 8% in the first year at 35C (equivalent to the hottest place on earth by annual average), might lose 4% in the next year, and then 2% and less every year thereafter. It won't reach 70% in 8 years (from a warranty perspective). Even comparing to the average lifespan of a car of 16 years, degradation would be still be manageable.

1731988521665.png
 
1732027533025.png
So charging over 70% SOC in every temperature range (25-50C) shows degradation but under 20% doesn't.
25C has less degradation than > 25C

Trying the K.I.S.S. method
 
View attachment 257011
So charging over 70% SOC in every temperature range (25-50C) shows degradation but under 20% doesn't.
25C has less degradation than > 25C

Trying the K.I.S.S. method
If you keep the batteries in a relatively cool environment you should be good. If you're running a solar system then you're not hanging out too low or too high soc anyways
 
What about charging/discharging efficiency at various SOC?

Round-trip with modified net metering (not quite 1-1, but close) vs round-trip with the battery (90%?).
 
What about charging/discharging efficiency at various SOC?
That's pretty easy to do yourself. From what I've seen it should be 95 - 98% depending on C rate. Your inverter/charger will be the largest contributor to round trip loss. That's why I'm a fan of high voltage battery inverters. Those don't need 48v - 400v dc converter stage and connect battery direct to hv bus at 400v.
 
Viewer found a NASA LFP degradation study. Really fantastic results but cells were held at extremely low temperatures unfortunately.
Interesting paper cited in the paper you linked.
Analysis and modeling of calendar aging of a commercial LiFePO4/graphite cell [Naumann et. al 2018]
lfp_storage_naumann-2018c.PNG
Here it looks like storing at 25°C 0% SOC is better than 0°C 50%. Too bad they did not test 0°C 0%. Even at 40°C 0% the degradation is only 3.5% in 2.5 years or 1.4%/yr.
lfp_storage-soc_naumann-2018c.PNG
And this clearly shows SOC influence on degradation.

lfp_storage-dcir_naumann-2018c.PNG
And here is confirmation that 50% SOC does increase internal resistance by 8%/yr vs. 5%/yr at 100% SOC. But capacity fade at 100% is still twice as fast as 50% SOC.
 
Last edited:
That's pretty easy to do yourself. From what I've seen it should be 95 - 98% depending on C rate
You can fully charge, and then discharge to say 50% SOC. Then you can add in a fixed amount of kWh (say 20% worth). But then, how do you know when you have discharged back to 50% SOC? With a relatively flat voltage curve, it is not so easy to determine.

From a quick search, the optimal charge/discharge is mid-range (50-80%) when internal resistance is lowest.
 
Last edited:
Viewer found a NASA LFP degradation study. Really fantastic results but cells were held at extremely low temperatures unfortunately.

View attachment 257008

Really low temps as you said, but I wonder if we can extrapolate in the opposite direction to higher temps by observing the incrementals which occur between 0C and -10C?

It’s not easy to read the graphs, but if we interpret the 10 year LFP residual capacity as 98.5% at -10C and 97% at 0C, can we safely extrapolate it as 95.5% at +10C 94% at 20C, etc… or is there more likely a logarithmic relationship going on?
 
Really low temps as you said, but I wonder if we can extrapolate in the opposite direction to higher temps by observing the incrementals which occur between 0C and -10C?

It’s not easy to read the graphs, but if we interpret the 10 year LFP residual capacity as 98.5% at -10C and 97% at 0C, can we safely extrapolate it as 95.5% at +10C 94% at 20C, etc… or is there more likely a logarithmic relationship going on?
Sadly we cannot. That is mentioned multiple times in the studies. And as you see from my original posts, the models they extrapolate are wrong at somepoints. Sadly
 
How about cycling 0 to 50% based on charge cutoff voltage? Charging to 3.3V/cell gets you 60% SOC at 0.05C cutoff.
Best way would to not use cell voltage to charge, but charge at max rate, and then have a cut off at 50% with a coulomb meter of sorts. Charging to 50 or 60% with voltage would be extremely slow.
 
Is the Tesla Powerwall the only one that has active cooling? Seems to me based on these studies you could have a noticeable degradation for people in the far south of USA who have to deal with extended periods of times where LFP batteries are excessively warm in an unconditioned space.
 
If I am understanding the conversation thus far, a system with the suggested 3 days of (normal use) backup power would, by necessity, be kept above 70% SOC almost always. I suppose that natural high state degradation would need to be calculated into longevity.
Correct?
 
Last edited:
If I am understanding the conversation thus far, a system with the suggested 3 days of (normal use) backup power would, by necessity, be kept above 70% SOC almost always.
That's if you don't care about higher degradation. If you must stay >70% then keep batteries cooled 10 - 25°C but do not charge them fast below 20°C. What is safe C rate below 25°C ? That still needs to be verified.
 
Have spent the last night reading everything I can about this topic. I have been saying for a few years that calendar aging will degrade our lifepo4 batteries before degradation caused by cycling ever would. I have also found some issues with how manufacturers do their cycle life testing. Would like to share my thoughts on this.

Offgrid Solar Application LiFePO4 Cycling:
Let us consider how a solar lifepo4 battery is used on a daily basis:
  • Most battery banks are being cycled at low C rates. Typically .1-.2C
  • If the battery bank has any amount of back up power (or "days of autonomy"), the battery will not complete full DOD cycles daily. It will do a partial cycle, typically 50% for an offgrid system, and sometimes much less than that. The depth of discharge also changes depending on season and total load consumption.
  • The temperature of these batteries is relatively cool. Typically, solar batteries are cycled indoors or in a shaded area (most outdoor listed batteries recommend this, and you will get over temperature disconnect if overheated). This changes the cycling degradation rate significantly. Less heat = less degradation.
  • A solar system is not hanging out at excessively high or low SOC for very long. Typically it hangs out around 50%. This can cause problems with balancing, which can detrimentally affect cell degradation rates across the pack. And limit performance and capacity if imbalance is excessive.
Laboratory LiFePO4 Cycle Testing Procedure:
  • Cycled at high C rates from 1C to 4C. Capacity then measured at this rate. This higher C rate will create more heat in the cell, and faster degradation.
  • Cycled nonstop between various SOC thresholds. 100% to 0%. 100% to 20% and so on.
  • The ambient temperature in the lab is controlled, but there is no way to assess internal cell temp. Models have been created, but this is very tricky to do. Considering the rates of charge and discharge for these tests, there should be an effort to keep the cell's internal temp regulated.
  • The cycles are rapid and continuous. There is no moment that the pack is hanging out at a specific SOC. It is either charging or discharging. Because the cycle tests hit 100%, there is no issue with balancing. Each cycle causes a small amount of balancing to occur that keeps the cell drift at a minimum.
Laboratory Calendar Aging Testing Procedure:
  • Cells are not being cycled. They are held at a specific SOC and temperature, and then capacity tested once a month. The higher the temperature, the faster the calendar aging degradation. Different SOC can have an effect, but that is more complex. Will come back to this later.
The difference between Cycle Degradation and Calendar Aging

Reference study: https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/14/6/1732

What causes degradation from cycling, does not cause degradation for calendar aging. They are independent processes.

Many companies in the solar industry will give cycle life recommendations based on cycle testing alone. Typically, at 1C rates, charging from 100 to 0 to 100, over and over. Sometimes they will modify the cycling threshold SOC, such as a DOD of 20%. This is not a good way to model degradation for solar batteries. The higher C rate will cause significantly more degradation over time (more than a solar battery would ever experience). For most solar systems, the highest C rate they will experience is .2C. This will not generate nearly the same amount of heat, and will reduce the rate of the aging processes significantly.

People will use these cycle life degradation studies to estimate how long their battery will last in years. This is not logical. These cycle life tests are done quickly and at higher internal cell temperatures. And different cycle depths. The degradation from cycling alone in batteries used for solar, will be much lower than any of these studies.

Now let us discuss the rate at which lifepo4 fades whether they are used or not. This is called calendar aging.

This is a fantastic study showing the degradation rate of lifepo4 at various SOC and temperatures: https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/14/6/1732

View attachment 256598

The cells were held at a specific SOC and temperature, and were NOT cycled. They were capacity tested once a month.

This created a measurable capacity fade over time:
View attachment 256599View attachment 256600

This was a 4 year study, so increasing the temperature was a useful way to speed up the calendar aging process. In a solar system that is at a lower temperature, the degradation rate will be slower, but it will still follow the rate that was observed here. And you can still model and predict long term calendar aging using these data points.

Now consider that this capacity fade will occur whether we are cycling the cells or not. Just the cells simply existing at temperatures commonly found on our planet, will create a measurable capacity fade over time.

They then used this data to create a model that can predict long term calendar aging (there seems to be an error for the yellow corner. Not sure what happened there):
View attachment 256603

Now with a solar system, we are hanging around 50% state of charge. So take a look at the graph where it shows 50% SOC and 25 degrees C. The model estimates that you will get 23.8 years till degradation to 80%.

Currently, batteries are rated in cycle life to 80% degradation. Let us use the power pro battery cycle life estimate of 8000 cycles at .5C with a DOD of 80%. If your solar system is sized properly (back up power for at minimum one day), you will never do a 80% DOD, and you will never charge at .5C rate. That means the cycle life degradation processes alone should be less than what they are predicting. You should easily get many more cycles than 8000 if you are using your system for solar.

Unfortunately, we do not have lower C rate cycling studies with 100% DOD. This is an area that we need more research on. Given the difference in C rate and how much heat generation can occur, this can change the cycle life degradation rate significantly. And in the field, most systems' degradation typically follow the calendar aging models.

The temperature that these cells are operating at can change the degradation rate significantly. And running our systems at a low c rate, with shallow cycles daily, means that cycle degradation will be extremely low. In most systems that I have run, it is not measurable. And the degradation rate follows calendar aging.

Okra Solar Pty Ltd. Actually has a fantastic blog post covering this:

View attachment 256606

View attachment 256609
View attachment 256610

View attachment 256611
View attachment 256613

Source:

Next up, I found it interesting that we always suggest to hang around 50% state of charge for maximum life. And that is true when it comes to degradation from cycling, but not true if you consider degradation from calendar aging. When you have a cell at 90% SOC for a prolonged duration, there will be a thickening of the SEI layer, and this will prevent some aging processes from occurring as fast. So the curve of degradation will actually flatten and over a few years, will be less than keeping your pack at 50%! That is crazy!

Check it out:
View attachment 256601

This effect will occur even faster at 100% SOC. Here is an explanation from the study:

View attachment 256616

Seems like going to a high SOC with a solar battery is not so bad! Unless you are doing fast charging and discharging at a high SOC. Then it will increase the cycling degradation. But it reduces the calendar aging degradation rate over time. Which in the long run, will be a larger factor to consider. Especially in higher temp environments.

Now this study states this in plain english:
View attachment 256617
Going by predictive models of cycle stability, using a lifepo4 battery for solar is not going to be a "limiting factor" here. And they also state that the calendar aging in these systems with high cycle count at low rates is the dominant contributor to degradation.

Read about it here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352152X18300665

Now there was a recent study that mentioned cycling degradation processes being higher when cycled at high SOC. But like we found out a minute ago, calendar aging is reduced when battery is held at high SOC:
View attachment 256618

So for cycling degradation at higher rates, which this study is for ev's, not solar, you want to avoid high SOC. But for a solar system that's primary degradation process comes from calendar aging, and calendar aging being less severe when battery is held at high SOC, I don't think it really matters. Even going from 0-100% should do moderate cycling damage in this study.

Now what can be concluded from all of these studies is that the hotter the battery is while it is being stored or cycle, the faster the degradation from cycling or storage. Both degradation processes are independent of each other, but still are affected by heat.

If you want your battery to last a very long time, you need to keep it in a cool environment. But going by the long term cycling degradation rates and cycling threshold data, I do not see any reason to modify your cycling thresholds.

What we need next in the future is a study showing the degradation of solar batteries at 25 degrees C, being cycled at .1 C, with partial daily cycles. Just like a normal solar system experiences.

Here is another useful article to reference:
View attachment 256619
Covering a multitide of factors for long life with lifepo4:

But again, some of this article goes against what is found in the calendar aging studies. So this seems to focus on cycling related degradation processes.

Conclusion:
I think my recommendation of charging to 100% for balancing and to use the total capacity of the battery, avoid extreme temperatures and install batteries indoors, and to not be afraid to DOD to 0% when necessary because cycling degradation is minimal, is a good recommendation for lifepo4 when used for solar.

If anyone would like to share studies that disagree, please share them below. Thank you
Thanks Will, for your concise study and information shared on LFPs battery degradation curve. I believe with your help I now have a reasonably adequate understanding of how to store and use my batteries for maximum potential!
 
That's if you don't care about higher degradation. If you must stay >70% then keep batteries cooled 10 - 25°C but do not charge them fast below 20°C. What is safe C rate below 25°C ? That still needs to be verified.
Because high c rate creates heat, it seems to speed up all degradation processes in a linear fashion. So, the lower the C rate the better.
 
My batteries will be outside. Not much choice in Thailand. They will be in the shade though. I expect heat will be my biggest source of degradation. I considered limiting charge current but there are days where doing so will mean the difference between the batteries getting fully charged and not, so if I limit them it will be to .3c.
 

diy solar

diy solar
Back
Top