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Daly 250 balancing problem.

andyP

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Aug 31, 2020
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Hi. The balancing seems way off, and I don't know if there's asserting to adjust...

I have 120ah cells in a 4x4 configuration.
Connected to 3x 330w panels, each with a dedicated whoever tracer 30amp charger.

When charging the cells don't ever seem very balanced. Especially as they reach 100%soc. I've tried adjusting the "diff volt protect" voltage but the android app won't take any setting other than 0.26v.perhaps this isn't even the right setting?

The cells were balanced when I installed them and running off the boats main charger, but now we're running of PV and I noticed the cell voltage difference is way high.

Discharging down to 90% soc brings the cells in line.

Am I charging them with too high a voltage? 14.2v. is there a damaged cell? Is the BMS working correctly? What can I test to see what's going on.
 

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As a reference my cheap ebay active cells balancer keeps my 18 cells that are all in series within .002 volts....and I have seen it move a 280ah cell .1 volts in one day when I first hooked it up.
 
The cells dont seem well balanced, was a top or bottom balance carried out? I assume the setup is four cells in parallel then each cell group wired in series to make a 12v battery with one BMS.

If there is a big difference in capacity in each of the 120 Ah cells and you cannot find any issues with the pack, measuring the capacity of each cell and selecting so that each group of 4 has near enough the same total capacity may be an option.

You could also re configure as four120Ah batteries or two 220Ah batteries each with its own BMS.

The limits set in the BMS seem somewhat high/low compared to what is recommended,


Until you sort the issue, I suggest lowering the voltage setting in the Tracer chargers and set the BMS pack limit to 13.7 volts. You dont need to charge 'full' with Lithium, 'leftover thinking' from lead acid battery use.

I would check the cell volts reading with a voltmeter and compare to the BMS reading. Ensure the buss bars are making good contact with the cells, special attention to the cell group 'cell 1'.

If you do need to re balance you could bleed of charge on the high cells with a suitable DC load or add charge to the low cells without having to dismantle the battery. With care and constant monitoring you could add charge to a low cell ( in your case a set of 4 in parallel) by connecting temporarily direct to a solar panel.

Mike
 
I'm not sure what the balance current is for the Daly, but I I'd bet it is really small .... You may have to do the parallel balance.
 
Thanks everyone.

I checked all the cells were at the same voltage when I first made up the pack. I guess that doesn't count as a top/bottom balance? I don't have a power supply to charge 3.4v.

I think one set of 4 cells are more charged than the others and their voltage is spiking early as the pack charges. After discharging with a water heater drawing 100amps and taking 10% of the soc the cells are all within 0.007v.

Is top/bottom balancing my only option or will it come into line if I give it light charges/discharge cycles at 14.00v for a few days?

It's tricky to disassemble the pack now, cos I don't have the space onboard and it leaves me without power. So is there another way to do it?
 
Is top/bottom balancing my only option or will it come into line if I give it light charges/discharge cycles at 14.00v for a few days?

It's tricky to disassemble the pack now, cos I don't have the space onboard and it leaves me without power. So is there another way to do it?
Bottom balancing is absolutely not what you want.
I find the term top balancing actually obfuscates the intent.
All you really need to do is fill each cell individually to 3.65 volts as measured at the battery terminals.
Assuming you have a smart bms you don't have to break the pack or disconnect anything.
The way I balanced my pack was I used a capacity tester https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07T86XS1N to discharge the high cell so that I could charge the pack ever closer to full.
When I got all the cells above 3.45 volts I used a buck converter https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B078Q1624B to top off each cell.
Then I let the pack sit over night and re-enabled bms balancing.
That was all it took.
My 8s battery has a delta of <5mv at the top and <20mv at the bottom.

To summarize all that is required to prepare these cells for use is to fill them all full.
That way your pack's capacity is determined by its weakest cell, which is as good as it gets.
 
Could I do this with a resistor and a voltmeter across one set of cells?
Well you won't be able to charge individual cells but you will be able to discharge them.
Give it a try.
Its probably going to be a bit fiddly but you should be able to get the cells closer, hopefully close enough that the bms can do the fine work.
Is your bms smart?
 
Ok, it's a Daly 250. Im pretty sure it's "smart". It connects to my phone with bluetooth if that's what you mean.
 
Ok, it's a Daly 250. Im pretty sure it's "smart". It connects to my phone with bluetooth if that's what you mean.
I mean that you can enable/disable balancing and you can configure the hi/low cell/pack cutoffs. If you can connect your phone via bluetooth then its likely smart.
 
Ah, I see what you mean. Yes it has parameters for balancing, but I can't seem to change it to anything other than 0.26v.
 

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Ah, I see what you mean. Yes it has parameters for balancing, but I can't seem to change it to anything other than 0.26v.
There are tabs on the card.
One of them should have toggles for charging and discharging and hopefully balancing.
 
You can run your pack as it is but must have the BMS operational to protect it. You wont have full capacity but it wont be too far off. Set the charge voltages in the solar chargers or any other charger to a maximum just below the point where the high cell reaches the limit, with 3.65 in the screen shot you gave, that would be 13.7 volts. The balancing feature in the BMS will, slowly over time, get things more in balance, so you could increase the charge voltage as necessary.
Using the pack imbalanced is not ideal but gives you a usable solution, provided the maximum charge voltages are set appropriately and any float value is 13.4 or less.

If the settings in the BMS are adjustable, set the pack maximum volts to 13.8. , minimum to 12.0, cell maximum to 3.7, cell minimum to 2.8. As you get the pack more in balance increase the pack maximum, so the highest cell still stays within 3.65, when balance complete set to 14.6.

With the pack assembled and charging near the high limits you can manually balance by draining power from the high cells one at a time or by adding power to the low cell. Its not that difficult to do with a 4 cell battery.
(Note I use the term cell for the cell group of 4 that you have in parallel). Take the usual safety precautions when working on the battery and take care to avoid accidental shorting.

Make up a suitable load, 12v bulbs wired in parallel to give about 50 watts, a 12v DC soldering iron, or anything else that will give a load 20 to 100 watts at 12v. Use suitable leads with a small contact area you can manually attach to the buss bars in the battery, you will be holding in place for several seconds. It just needs hand pressure , not bolted or clamped.

Taking the screen shot you posted as an example, cell 1 is high compared to 2,3,4. Whilst monitoring the cell voltages put your load across the cell for a few seconds, repeat as necessary varying the time. With a little experience it becomes easier. Once you get cell 1 voltage to match the rest, one of them will take the lead , say cell 3, so work on this cell with the load, to pull its voltage down to near the others.
It takes a little practice as the cell volts ' jump up' somewhat when the load is removed.
Once things are near enough, say 30mV differential and remaining steady under charge, increase the charge voltage in stages, repeating the 'balance' as necessary. It will work, it may take some time, but as you gain experience with the 'contact time' and its effect on cell volts, the process speeds up.

Since you have four 120Ah cells in parallel making up one 'cell' in the battery, these will self balance over time but may affect the 'cell' balance in the battery. Hopefully the BMS and the initial random selection of cells to make up the parallel group will minimize any effect. If it appears the pack is going out of balance you may need to repeat the manual balance procedure.

I recommend you check the cell volts readout as given with the BMS with the voltage given with a meter. Its not uncommon for errors.

As an alternative you could use one of the solar panels directly (no solar regulator) as a 'constant current charger' on a low cell to add power and raise that cell voltage. Again it requires a temporary connection to the buss bars. Unlike the 'bleed off' method the panel is polarity sensitive so a series diode would be useful.

The two techniques are similar methods of obtaining balance as outlined by smoothJoey but using items you already have.

Mike
 
That's great @Mikefirz, thanks. Cell 4 seems consistently lower so I'm interested in your suggestion of attaching a PV panel to bring it up. But the panels are 40v oc. 330watts. Not sure that it's good for them or the cell to join them. Have I understood your suggestion correctly?
 
suggestion of attaching a PV panel to bring it up. But the panels are 40v oc. 330watts.
A solar panel is a current source, you can directly short the outputs without damaging anything. Your panels are good for 9 or 10 amps maximum.

If you are nervous about this technique, use the alternative of taking power from the high cells. You dont have to worry about polarity. Its always safer removing power than adding, as there is no chance of over volts on the cell.

Mike
 
I mage a 60ohm resistance with some stainless steel wire (dunked in water for good measure after the wire insulation started to aromise the cabin). Left it on the high cell for what was about 20 minutes.

Dropped the cell difference from 200mV to 10mV. And the next day the cells are all within 1mV. I think having them closer gives allows the BMS to balance much more effectively. But it was a bit overcast yesterday.

Expecting a full sunny day today so will see how it copes with a slightly higher voltage. If all goes well I'll up the charge voltage.

Thanks for the advice and help.
 
Hi. The balancing seems way off, and I don't know if there's asserting to adjust...

I have 120ah cells in a 4x4 configuration.
Connected to 3x 330w panels, each with a dedicated whoever tracer 30amp charger.

When charging the cells don't ever seem very balanced. Especially as they reach 100%soc. I've tried adjusting the "diff volt protect" voltage but the android app won't take any setting other than 0.26v.perhaps this isn't even the right setting?

The cells were balanced when I installed them and running off the boats main charger, but now we're running of PV and I noticed the cell voltage difference is way high.

Discharging down to 90% soc brings the cells in line.

Am I charging them with too high a voltage? 14.2v. is there a damaged cell? Is the BMS working correctly? What can I test to see what's going on.
First set high cell voltage protect to 3.65, and cell low voltage protect to 2.5. 3.8 is not a voltage you want on your battery cell, neither is 2.2.
 
Ah, I see what you mean. Yes it has parameters for balancing, but I can't seem to change it to anything other than 0.26v.
Set charging limit to 125 amps and discharge to 250 amps (since it is a 250A BMS).
 
First set high cell voltage protect to 3.65, and cell low voltage protect to 2.5. 3.8 is not a voltage you want on your battery cell, neither is 2.2.
Yup. did that. Thanks.

My PV pannel would never generate more than 125amps
But yes, good point about discharge protection. Thanks again.
 
Yup. did that. Thanks.

My PV pannel would never generate more than 125amps
But yes, good point about discharge protection. Thanks again.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound demanding. Daly ships those with default values that are not good for your battery.
 
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