DC Circuit Breaker Fires

[Denidil]

Its really cheap.
Thats a concern.

It looks like a Westinghouse design...
But its a metric IEC breaker so I am a but concerned.

Actual westinghouse design with a shunt ( i like the shunt trips )

https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/skuPage.PDG23F0225B2NJ.html

Look at the price differential.
That's what scares me.

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that Eaton price is eyewatering, that's more expensive than a 200amp dual pole DC main by a factor of 4.

I was having trouble finding traditional disconnect switches that were rated for "48v" lithium systems (aka need to be actually 60v) but i just found a 60V 275A rated one. Though I note that battery disconnects have no UL/CE/etc markings.

edit: Firefox review checker is giving the Dihool AC/DC Breaker Disconnect switch an F rating - as in fake reviews. maybe if i ever build something i'll stick to disconnect+fuse. i hate the idea of fuses though, resettable devices are better IMHO

 

[DPC]

it's got IEC/EN 60947-2 markings on it which is a certification as someone else noted.

That is not a certification its a standard.
IEC stuff tends to be smaller and lighter than NEMA stuff.
Built to finer tolerances with the expectation the end user has a power system that meets the same design criteria.

NEMA stuff is big dum and overbuilt because its based on standards that had a lot of slop and goof in them from the cowboy electrical days.
The IEC stuff was set in stone in the early 70s to unify EU power systems.

Example:
This is a 70s Canadian made CCL starter size 1 - 33 amp rated contactor.
Its built like a tank because it was designed for 25 cycle equipment in the 1930s ( ignore the light bulbs. I hide light bulbs in this one because the rack is no longer in service no power, and no one would think of looking in there for light bulbs or bother with it )

This is a modern Cutler hammer, even made in the same plant with smaller lighter IEC parts.


Small lighter cheaper......

 

[DPC]

that Eaton price is eyewatering, that's more expensive than a 200amp dual pole DC main by a factor of 4.

That's what quality parts cost.
If your not paying that much I worry about what your buying.....

 

[Denidil]

That's what quality parts cost.
If your not paying that much I worry about what your buying.....

bro and entire subpanel with two 50 amp breakers and plugs for them (one 14-50P, one generator inlet) on of them GFCI, conduits, 15 foot of 3-3-3-5 Copper SER, misc other wiring and conduits to relocate circuits from main to sub, and the electrical permit cost about the same as that Eaton breaker.

nobody is paying that for mobile applications for a breaker, nobody.

 

[ricardocello]

That's what quality parts cost.
If your not paying that much I worry about what your buying.....

The big guys (Eaton, Schneider, ABB, etc.) extract maximum profit on these kinds of things.
DIY people simply can’t afford an industrial $2,500 disconnect switch.
But I never question the quality.

The problem with the imported gear is a lack of trust and potential quality concerns.
Which is why I recommended the higher-grade DIHOOL MCB above,

If you have to buy that stuff, at least get the best they sell. And derate heavily.
Just my opinion.

 

[DPC]

that Eaton price is eyewatering, that's more expensive than a 200amp dual pole DC main by a factor of 4.

I was having trouble finding traditional disconnect switches that were rated for "48v" lithium systems (aka need to be actually 60v) but i just found a 60V 275A rated one. Though I note that battery disconnects have no UL/CE/etc markings.

edit: Firefox review checker is giving the Dihool AC/DC Breaker Disconnect switch an F rating - as in fake reviews. maybe if i ever build something i'll stick to disconnect+fuse. i hate the idea of fuses though, resettable devices are better IMHO

KD breaker used on Ebay...

Snoop around for one.
K is the frame size.
Trip units can be swapped out for the rating you want or just use it as a switch..
Add a shunt trip unit to remotely activated it if you want to pout an emergency stop button someplace you can hit to disconnect power .

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[DPC]

The big guys (Eaton, Schneider, ABB, etc.) extract maximum profit on these kinds of things.
DIY people simply can’t afford an industrial $2,500 disconnect switch.
But I never question the quality.

The problem with the imported gear is a lack of trust and potential quality concerns.
Which is why I recommended the higher-grade DIHOOL MCB above,

If you have to buy that stuff, at least get the best they sell.
Just my opinion.

Buy used ebay...
These things are like ass holes everyone has one in the back of an electrical shop.

Find an electrician that does industrial or commercial work tell him you want one of these odds are you can get it for a box of beer...

 

[Denidil]

The problem with the imported gear is a lack of trust and potential quality concerns.
Which is why I recommended the higher-grade DIHOOL MCB above,

yeah i'm kinda there with you that i look at this like "do we actually trust these?"

the higher grade one only comes in 100A right now.

 

[DPC]

I have a good mind to start a collection and and sell them to you guys.
at my cost......

 

[Denidil]

KD breaker used on Ebay...

Snoop around for one.
K is the frame size.
Trip units can be swapped out for the rating you want or just use it as a switch..
Add a shunt trip unit to remotely activated it if you want to pout an emergency stop button someplace you can hit to disconnect power .

EATON 400 AMP CIRCUIT BREAKER W/ 250 AMP TRIP 600 VAC / 250 VDC 3 POLE KD3400F | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for EATON 400 AMP CIRCUIT BREAKER W/ 250 AMP TRIP 600 VAC / 250 VDC 3 POLE KD3400F at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

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no way i'm putting used breakers into anything i build

 

[DPC]

China Electric Linear Actuator Manufacturer & Supplier - DIHOOL Electric Co., Ltd.

DIHOOL Electric Zhejiang Co., Ltd. is a great manufacturer and Supplier of electric linear actuators in China, production and sales of 12v linear actuator,24v linear actuator ,lifting column,Electric lifting table,linear actuator motor and others.

www.dihool.com

I never heard of these people in my life and I have been an electrician for 30 years, in the electrical business all my adult life.

 

[ricardocello]

China Electric Linear Actuator Manufacturer & Supplier - DIHOOL Electric Co., Ltd.

DIHOOL Electric Zhejiang Co., Ltd. is a great manufacturer and Supplier of electric linear actuators in China, production and sales of 12v linear actuator,24v linear actuator ,lifting column,Electric lifting table,linear actuator motor and others.

www.dihool.com

I never heard of these people in my life and I have been an electrician for 30 years, in the electrical business all my adult life.

Probably true for all of those Chinese electrical manufacturers.

But their target market is really the rest of the world, not North America.
Thus the IEC/EN standards and TUV/CCC/CB certificates.
If Amazon didn’t exist you still wouldn’t know about them.

 

[DPC]

no way i'm putting used breakers into anything i build

Why not ?
I do it all the time.
Take one out of this, put it in that......
Make one out of two strip a part from this put it in that....

If you start with something thats not a piece of Chinese shit.
Guess what....

Breaker service is not rocket surgery.
Once you take one apart see what is inside and how it works you will feel much better about it.

I don't fuck around with solar equipment for a living I work on industrial power systems from 600 volt to 13,800 volts.
We don't use Chinese parts thats more likely to fail and cause an accident of fire....

 

[DPC]

Probably true for all of those Chinese electrical manufacturers.

But their target market is really the rest of the world, not North America.
Thus the IEC/EN standards and TUV/CCC/CB certificates.
If Amazon didn’t exist you still wouldn’t know about them.

If you want a metric IEC breaker buy Siemens or Knockler Muller ABB, cutler hammer, squareD AB...
A brand you know and can trust.
Something you can get pars for if required....

 

[ksmithaz1]

that Eaton price is eyewatering, that's more expensive than a 200amp dual pole DC main by a factor of 4.

I was having trouble finding traditional disconnect switches that were rated for "48v" lithium systems (aka need to be actually 60v) but i just found a 60V 275A rated one. Though I note that battery disconnects have no UL/CE/etc markings.

edit: Firefox review checker is giving the Dihool AC/DC Breaker Disconnect switch an F rating - as in fake reviews. maybe if i ever build something i'll stick to disconnect+fuse. i hate the idea of fuses though, resettable devices are better IMHO

When you get into really high current, I think a fuse is a much better option, less expensive more reliable, and you really shouldn't be resetting a primary feed line. A big knife switch ain't cheap either. Hell my battery primary fuses are 300A, and I don't have a disconnect on the lines, but I'm rackmount so I would shut off all the breakers on the batteries for maintenance not the primary lines from the bus. Kind of depends on how you engineer your battery strings. For branch stuff / multi input or output, gotta go with breakers to allow you to isolate a branch easily.

One of the reasons I didn't DIY 300AH prismatics is you gotta have a 2-300A BMS, for each string.

 

[Denidil]

Why not ?
I do it all the time.
Take one out of this, put it in that......
Make one out of two strip a part from this put it in that....

i have no idea how many cycles that device has gone through, which they are rated for a limited lifetime of trip and manual on/off cycles

i have no idea if it's been in an environment or operating conditions that could have degraded it's reliability

after my last experience with used cars I don't trust used cars, why would i trust used breakers. I'm not a fan of electrical fires :D hence why I asked people's opinions on those Dihool breaker/disconnects.

 

[Denidil]

When you get into really high current, I think a fuse is a much better option, less expensive more reliable, and you really shouldn't be resetting a primary feed line. A big knife switch ain't cheap either. Hell my battery primary fuses are 300A, and I don't have a disconnect on the lines, but I'm rackmount so I would shut off all the breakers on the batteries for maintenance not the primary lines from the bus. Kind of depends on how you engineer your battery strings. For branch stuff / multi input or output, gotta go with breakers to allow you to isolate a branch easily.

One of the reasons I didn't DIY 300AH prismatics is you gotta have a 2-300A BMS, for each string.

i won't be building custom packs, i'll be using things like these https://www.litime.com/products/12v-100ah-group-24-smart-bluetooth that have internal BMSes. all my applications are technically "mobile" ... including when i build a "battery/inverter shelf" that i can power my house during an outage with and recharge off a generator, it will just connect to my house via the generator inlet :D

 

[DPC]

Molded case switch...
It has the heavy duty switching apparatus inside but not the trip unit.
Very reliable will not blow up in your face...

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Will not cause a fire.
Yes this one is ugly and dirty.
So what offer the guy 50 bucks for it and maybe you actually get it that cheap.
take it apart when you get it home clean it up put it in service

I am trying to think of the last time I had a thirty or forty year old breaker fail an it was the switching mechanism that failed.
And I cant.....
After decades of switching and and working, because for safety and liability they are very well made..
I have seen burned up lugs and broken paddles but nothing internal failed unless cause by an external problem.
A door handle that was not aligned properly or lose connections that over heat a trip unit or burned up a lug.

For what you guys need HA.... this stuff will never cause you trouble.

 

[ksmithaz1]

I don't fuck around with solar equipment for a living I work on industrial power systems from 600 volt to 13,800 volts.
We don't use Chinese parts thats more likely to fail and cause an accident of fire....

Kinda like all those crappy Japanese made electronics products in the 60's and 70's? Why anyone would buy anything made in Japan is beyond me. Curious as to what breakers and switches are actually made in the US or EU?

 

[Denidil]

Yes this one is ugly and dirty.

that clearly got wet, that isn't coming anywhere near any project i do. you might have the knowledge to take them apart and check their internal integrity, but i don't. I'm have a computational science degree, not an electrical engineering degree

 

[ksmithaz1]

i won't be building custom packs, i'll be using things like these https://www.litime.com/products/12v-100ah-group-24-smart-bluetooth that have internal BMSes. all my applications are technically "mobile" ... including when i build a "battery/inverter shelf" that i can power my house during an outage with and recharge off a generator, it will just connect to my house via the generator inlet :D

You should spend a bit more time in the forums. To power your house, this would not be ideal to say the least.

 

[DPC]

To use the used car analogy.....
We are talking about the difference between this

and this


And your worried about how many miles are on it.

 

[DPC]

Japanese made electronics products in the 60's and 70's

Some of those stereos were pretty good actually...
A Sony trinatroon was better than an RCA...

 

[agtcovert]

i have no idea how many cycles that device has gone through, which they are rated for a limited lifetime of trip and manual on/off cycles

i have no idea if it's been in an environment or operating conditions that could have degraded it's reliability

after my last experience with used cars I don't trust used cars, why would i trust used breakers. I'm not a fan of electrical fires :D hence why I asked people's opinions on those Dihool breaker/disconnects.

I'll give an alternate opinion: I have 400A single pole Dihool disconnects in my 12V RV system and my 48V home system. Both have handled near their limit and remained just above ambient temp. I've pushed the one in my 48V system past 400A and it did trip. The black ones @ricardocello referenced are even better. They're built heavy. You can also get black MCBs which are a bit higher quality.

Still Chinese? Yep. But, with few exceptions, what of the equipment we're using elsewhere isn't made in China? So yeah, you can cough up huge amounts, get a used unknown quantity, or one of these. There are some cheaper MCCBs as well with different brand names. I don't know if they all have the same internal parts. Noark is another brand I've seen used in Australia, I don't know if it's specific to that market. I think it's high quality though.

 

[Denidil]

You should spend a bit more time in the forums. To power your house, this would not be ideal to say the least.

four of them in series for a 48v setup, with paired victron 48/3000 multiplus-II inverters, in a cabinet type setup. as a temporary "power outage" pack that i can generator recharge. L14-30 inlet and outlet, with the victrons set to limit draw to the generator limits.

breakers, fuses, etc all wired up so that overloads trip protection.