Defunding FEMA

[svetz]

It's not at all settled yet, but FEMA has had budget cuts, firings, and Noem says they'll have FEMA dismantled by the fall:

Secretary Kristi Noem announced during a March cabinet meeting, “We’re going to eliminate FEMA” contradicting her previous commitment at her nomination hearing to ‘enhance our emergency preparedness and strengthen FEMA’s capabilities.’

With hurricane season fast approaching and all the FEMA disruptions, what's going to happen? Is your state on the ball and ready to go?

Is this genius because Climate Change was getting so bad that FEMA couldn't keep up? Is it cheaper that 50 states have their own than one centralized center because each state can tailor it to their needs? Was FEMA doing good... or just getting in the way? Is this letting people know they can only rely on themselves and the government won't be there when disasters strike their community? What happens if the disaster strikes where the state's management team is?

You probably have questions/thoughts on it too, so this thread is to get a discussion going.

 

[svetz]

Deepmind's training cutoff was at the beginning of 2023 before this controversy started, so a good AI to get the pros & cons before all the hype started around the issue (that is, it's a good AI to circumvent post Trump election news hysteria):

what are the pros and cons of eliminating FEMA and letting each state have their own?​

Eliminating the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and devolving all disaster preparedness, response, recovery, and mitigation functions entirely to individual states would represent a fundamental shift in how the United States handles emergencies. Here's an analysis of the potential pros and cons:

Potential Pros of Eliminating FEMA (State-Led Approach):

1. Tailored Responses: States could potentially tailor disaster response plans and resource allocation more precisely to their specific geographic risks (e.g., hurricanes on the coast, earthquakes in California, tornadoes in the Midwest), local populations, and unique infrastructure needs.
2. Reduced Federal Bureaucracy: Decision-making might become faster at the state level without needing to navigate federal processes, approvals, and regulations for accessing certain types of immediate aid or taking specific actions.
3. Increased State Ownership and Accountability: States would have full responsibility, potentially leading to greater investment in their own preparedness and mitigation efforts, knowing federal backup is gone. Accountability for success or failure would rest squarely with state leadership.
4. Potential for Innovation: Freed from federal frameworks, some states might develop innovative and potentially more efficient or effective approaches to disaster management suited to their specific context.
5. Reduced Federal Spending (Potentially): Eliminating a large federal agency could reduce federal expenditures, although these costs would likely need to be absorbed by the states or disaster costs would simply go unmet.

Potential Cons of Eliminating FEMA (State-Led Approach):

1. Massive Funding Disparities & Inequity: This is arguably the biggest challenge. States have vastly different economic capacities. Wealthier states might manage reasonably well, while less affluent states could be completely overwhelmed by a major disaster, lacking the funds for effective response, let alone long-term recovery. This would create huge inequities in how citizens are supported based purely on geography.
2. Insufficient Resources & Capacity: Many states lack the personnel, specialized equipment (search and rescue teams, communication gear, medical units), logistical capabilities, and financial reserves to handle catastrophic events independently. FEMA provides surge capacity and resources that often dwarf what any single state can muster.
3. Difficulty Coordinating Large-Scale & Interstate Disasters: Major disasters (hurricanes, widespread flooding, massive wildfires, earthquakes) frequently cross state lines or impact multiple states simultaneously. Without a coordinating federal entity like FEMA, ensuring a unified response, managing resource allocation across states, and facilitating mutual aid would become extremely complex and potentially chaotic.
4. Loss of Standardization: FEMA promotes national standards like the National Incident Management System (NIMS) and the Incident Command System (ICS), which allow responders from different agencies and jurisdictions to work together seamlessly. Without this federal role, interoperability could decline significantly. Equipment compatibility could also become an issue.
5. Inability to Handle Catastrophic Events: Events like Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Maria, or a major Cascadia Subduction Zone earthquake would likely exceed the capacity of any single state or even a group of states without massive federal intervention (including military assets often coordinated via FEMA).
6. Loss of Specialized Expertise & Technical Assistance: FEMA provides technical expertise, training, grant management support, and guidance on complex issues like hazard mitigation, floodplain management, and long-term recovery planning that many states may not possess internally.
7. Weakened National Mitigation Efforts: FEMA administers national programs (like flood insurance mapping and hazard mitigation grants) aimed at reducing long-term risk across the country. A state-by-state approach might lead to inconsistent or inadequate focus on preventative measures.
8. Unequal Citizen Outcomes: The level of support and speed of recovery for disaster survivors could vary drastically depending on which state they live in, rather than the severity of the disaster itself.
9. Political Challenges: Disaster aid allocation could become more heavily politicized at the state level without the buffer or overarching framework provided by a federal agency.

Conclusion:
While a state-led approach could theoretically offer more localized control and potentially reduce federal bureaucracy, the cons – particularly regarding funding disparities, resource capacity, coordination for large events, and equity for citizens – are substantial. Most experts believe that a federal coordinating body like FEMA, despite its criticisms and imperfections, is essential for managing large-scale disasters in a country as large and diverse as the United States. The current system relies on a partnership between federal, state, tribal, and local governments, where FEMA provides critical support, funding, and coordination, especially when state and local resources are overwhelmed. Eliminating this federal role would likely lead to less effective, less equitable, and potentially catastrophic outcomes during major emergencies.

 

[Chispas]

Is this letting people know they can only rely on themselves and the government won't be there when disasters strike their community? What happens if the disaster strikes where the state's management team is?

Not sure? Primary response to most natural disasters come from our neighbours & big bureaucracies are slow to respond but in the case of the floods near Valencia, here in Spain last year, the regional emergency response committee was dismantled because, as we all know climate collapse is a lie/s this meant that alerts were not broadcast or any other preparation put in place until 20.00 when people were already dying. This, despite the national meteorological service warning about this even for almost 72 hours before. The port of Valencia & regional universities shut down at 08.00 that day & sent everyone home. 220 people were killed or are still missing.

 

[cotter`]

Where is the Constitutional authority for fema?

After warching NC last year can a federal politicized agency that large be allowed to exist? Should 'safe' states be forced to bail out those who choose to live in tornado/hurricane/flood alley? Chispas got this correct "Primary response to most natural disasters come from our neighbours & big bureaucracies are slow to respond".

Bury the bureaucracy and move on.

 

[fatjay]

Cool. Give me my tax dollars back and i'll take care of myself.

 

[BerndL]

Shelter and Services Program | FEMA.gov

The Shelter and Services Program (SSP) is funded through U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), and administered by FEMA, as directed by Congress in the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2023.

www.fema.gov

FEMA now spends over 650 million dollars a year giving cash and hotel coupons to migrants. The left turned it into just another cash cow for gibs like they ruin every institution they control.
Even if it still somewhat functions, it's rotted to the point that management ordering teams not to give aid to Republican-voting houses was done over email.
At the very minimum it needs to have its leadership replaced at every level.

A better idea would be abolishing it and folding its actual duties into the national guard system, which would also improve coordination with state governments.

Also the federal flood insurance program needs to be destroyed. Subsidizing people to rebuild in flood zones every ten years is insane.

 

[Chispas]

As extreme weather events become more frequent, planning & coordination are more important. Regional response is better IMO, but this is very different to a large bureaucracy handing out public money to "contractors"

 

[BerndL]

As extreme weather events become more frequent, planning & coordination are more important. Regional response is better IMO, but this is very different to a large bureaucracy handing out public money to "contractors"

Extreme weather events are not becoming more frequent

 

[D71]

Get your own damn Insurance for your State. Stopping leeching off other States insurance companies and raising our prices .

You damn State of Florida is built on a SWAMP. STFU complaining and move or deal with it.

The old Spanish Ships filled with gold and silver sank because of coastal storms and there was nothing but minimum here. Climate change is bs.

Stop acting smart and retard at the same time. Grow up and stop whining.

 

[svetz]

If you live in an area prone to disasters (e.g., gulf coast with hurricane, tonadoes, etc.); how's your state doing with taking this over before the season starts (e.g., hurricane season)? It's one thing to say regional can do it better and another if they've had time to do it.

Give me the Money​

Cool. Give me my tax dollars back and i'll take care of myself.

Well, if the feds are planning a tax break you might see some back. But, given the dis-economy of un-scale where every state is doing their own version of FEMA it's more that likely you'll pay what you were, more to the state, and still need to take care of it yourself. ; -)

I've got a problem with Authority​

Where is the Constitutional authority for fema?

Carter set it up originally and I think Congress mandated it. It was to address the fragmented and inefficient federal response to natural disasters and emergencies. The creation of FEMA was driven by a combination of practical, political, and historical factors, as disasters in the 1960s and 1970s that exposed significant gaps in the U.S. government’s ability to coordinate relief efforts.

To Be or Not to Be?​

After warching NC last year can a federal politicized agency that large be allowed to exist?

100 deaths, $40 billion in damages. Wonder if the states will do any better? Some probably will. Texas & Florida have money, not sure about the rest of the gulf coast states.

Don't Look up!​

Extreme weather events are not becoming more frequent

Hopefully this thread won't get side tracked regarding that question. There are threads that discuss it though.

 

[cotter`]

If you live in an area prone to disasters (e.g., gulf coast with hurricane, tonadoes, etc.); how's your state doing with taking this over before the season starts (e.g., hurricane season)? It's one thing to say regional can do it better and another if they've had time to do it.


Well, if the feds are planning a tax break you might see some back. But, given the dis-economy of un-scale where every state is doing their own version of FEMA it's more that likely you'll pay what you were, more to the state, and still need to take care of it yourself. ; -)


Carter set it up originally and I think Congress mandated it. It was to address the fragmented and inefficient federal response to natural disasters and emergencies. The creation of FEMA was driven by a combination of practical, political, and historical factors, as disasters in the 1960s and 1970s that exposed significant gaps in the U.S. government’s ability to coordinate relief efforts.


100 deaths, $40 billion in damages. Wonder if the states will do any better? Some probably will. Texas & Florida have money, not sure about the rest of the gulf coast states.


Hopefully this thread won't get side tracked regarding that question. There are threads that discuss it though.

Again, where in the Constitution is FEMA authorized?

Any state, given any amount of time, will do laps around any federal behemoth. As I agreed with chispas, our friends, family, neighbors and complete strangers show up to help, seen it first hand. The first few days with locals running things were awesome, shit got done. The big shows arrived and the bloat killed it. Yes, volunteers showed up and the big shows were charging the feds for the labor of those volunteers. Kill the bloat... I don't want any presidential visit, that hinders the workers. One thing bush got right with katrina, fly over and show your concern, let the workers work...

 

[Skid]

No FEMA, no problem. States when incurring natural disasters such as Hurricane Helene can start their own state operated GoFundMe campaigns. To the grovelers go the spoils.

 

[svetz]

FEMA’s Constitutional Authorization​

I understand your frustration with FEMA; its failures, like slow aid after Hurricanes Katrina, Maria, or Helene, have left many angry. But questioning its constitutional basis misses the mark IMO.

The Constitution doesn’t explicitly mention FEMA, just as it doesn’t name NASA or the CIA.

In the constitution, Article I, Section 8 empowers Congress to pass laws for the “general welfare” and make “necessary and proper” regulations, including creating agencies. In 1979 those mechanisms were used to establish FEMA as a federal agency.

To me the real issue isn’t FEMA’s existence—it’s how it operates.

Why FEMA Exists​

Before FEMA, states struggled with disasters, often leaving the federal government to clean up the mess. In the 1960s and 1970s, hurricanes like Betsy and Camille exposed fragmented federal programs and state under preparedness. Carter created FEMA to streamline aid and leverage federal resources. History shows states cut disaster budgets during quiet periods; Louisiana’s underfunded levees pre-Katrina are a prime example. Without FEMA, we risk repeating these failures, as states lack the consistent experience FEMA gains from responding to 100+ disasters annually, from wildfires to floods.

FEMA’s Real Problems​

Your anger is valid, but it’s better aimed at FEMA’s execution, not its mission to help before, during, and after disasters. Here are its biggest flaws, backed by evidence:

• Slow Responses: FEMA’s delayed aid during Katrina (2005), Maria (2017), and Helene (2024) left communities waiting weeks, with a 2006 Senate report citing poor planning.
• Bureaucracy: Complex aid applications denied 30–40% of applicants post-2017 hurricanes, per GAO reports, stalling recovery.
• Inequitable Aid: A 2021 study showed FEMA favors wealthier areas, with Puerto Rico receiving $1.5 billion less than needed after Maria.
• Staffing Shortages: In 2020, FEMA managed 230 disasters, including COVID-19, but 2024’s Helene and Milton stretched its 12,000-person workforce, leaving half of aid calls unanswered.
• Unqualified Leadership: Political appointees like Michael Brown (Katrina) lacked expertise, though reforms post-2006 improved some appointments.
• State Dependency: FEMA’s 75–100% cost reimbursements discourage state investment, as seen in California’s pre-2000s wildfire budget cuts.
• Underfunded Mitigation: Only 15% of FEMA’s budget goes to prevention (e.g., floodwalls), despite $1 in mitigation saving $6 in losses.
• Poor Communication: Misinformation, like 2024 X posts falsely claiming FEMA seized property, thrives due to unclear messaging.
• Graft and Bad Contracts: Post-Katrina, FEMA wasted $1 billion on faulty contracts for trailers, some contaminated with formaldehyde, per a 2008 EPA report.

A Better Path Forward?​

FEMA’s flaws are legion, but abolishing it suddenly is risky and not all states are equal. The push to suddenly shift disaster management back to states ignores the reality that it takes time to build capacity, hire staff, and budget effectively. A sudden transition could leave them unprepared, repeating pre-FEMA chaos. Reforming FEMA; mandating qualified administrators, streamlining aid, prioritizing mitigation, rooting out graft, making them more of an oversight/control that coordinates with States abilities seems to offer a smarter fix.

Throwing FEMA our and saying "the states can do it" reminds me of revolutions where people want change and revolt, but without planning for the future they often end up worse off.

 

[Bongbong]

FEMA’s Constitutional Authorization​

I understand your frustration with FEMA—its failures, like slow aid after Hurricanes Katrina, Maria, or Helene, have left many angry. But questioning its constitutional basis misses the mark IMO.

The Constitution doesn’t explicitly mention FEMA, just as it doesn’t name NASA or the CIA.

In the constitution, Article I, Section 8 empowers Congress to pass laws for the “general welfare” and make “necessary and proper” regulations, including creating agencies. In 1979 those mechanisms were used to establish FEMA as a federal agency.

To me the real issue isn’t FEMA’s existence—it’s how it operates.

Why FEMA Exists​

Before FEMA, states struggled with disasters, often leaving the federal government to clean up the mess. In the 1960s and 1970s, hurricanes like Betsy and Camille exposed fragmented federal programs and state under preparedness. Carter created FEMA to streamline aid and leverage federal resources. History shows states cut disaster budgets during quiet periods—Louisiana’s underfunded levees pre-Katrina are a prime example. Without FEMA, we risk repeating these failures, as states lack the consistent experience FEMA gains from responding to 100+ disasters annually, from wildfires to floods.

FEMA’s Real Problems​

Your anger is valid, but it’s better aimed at FEMA’s execution, not its mission to help before, during, and after disasters. Here are its biggest flaws, backed by evidence:

• Slow Responses: FEMA’s delayed aid during Katrina (2005), Maria (2017), and Helene (2024) left communities waiting weeks, with a 2006 Senate report citing poor planning.
• Bureaucracy: Complex aid applications denied 30–40% of applicants post-2017 hurricanes, per GAO reports, stalling recovery.
• Inequitable Aid: A 2021 study showed FEMA favors wealthier areas, with Puerto Rico receiving $1.5 billion less than needed after Maria.
• Staffing Shortages: In 2020, FEMA managed 230 disasters, including COVID-19, but 2024’s Helene and Milton stretched its 12,000-person workforce, leaving half of aid calls unanswered.
• Unqualified Leadership: Political appointees like Michael Brown (Katrina) lacked expertise, though reforms post-2006 improved some appointments.
• State Dependency: FEMA’s 75–100% cost reimbursements discourage state investment, as seen in California’s pre-2000s wildfire budget cuts.
• Underfunded Mitigation: Only 15% of FEMA’s budget goes to prevention (e.g., floodwalls), despite $1 in mitigation saving $6 in losses.
• Poor Communication: Misinformation, like 2024 X posts falsely claiming FEMA seized property, thrives due to unclear messaging.
• Graft and Bad Contracts: Post-Katrina, FEMA wasted $1 billion on faulty contracts for trailers, some contaminated with formaldehyde, per a 2008 EPA report.

A Better Path Forward?​

FEMA’s flaws are legion, but abolishing it suddenly is risky and not all states are equal. The push to suddenly shift disaster management back to states ignores the reality that it takes time to build capacity, hire staff, and budget effectively. A sudden transition could leave them unprepared, repeating pre-FEMA chaos. Reforming FEMA—mandating qualified administrators, streamlining aid, prioritizing mitigation, rooting out graft, making them more of an oversight/control that coordinates with States abilities seems to offer a smarter fix.

Throwing FEMA our and saying "the states can do it" reminds me of revolutions where people want change and revolt, but without planning for the future they often end up worse off.

I view Trump’s actions as a large-scale economic and social experiment, one that, as a foreigner, doesn’t directly affect me much. While it’s likely he may fall short of achieving his stated goals, imagine the potential impact if his actions were to actually result in a stronger, more equitable United States. The benefits could extend not just to Americans, but to the world at large if they decide to copy his fission. Even the most likely scenario, when he fails, we will still have learned from it.

One of the most valuable lessons I’ve learned in my travels is that, no matter where I went, people are generally willing to help one another in times of need. Yes, there are always a few who retreat into fear, building bunkers, stockpiling food and ammunition in anticipation of chaos, but overall, I remain confident in the basic kindness of people, and their instinct to support others when it truly matters.

As for FEMA, maybe by removing it, you might end up with a more caring society where people are willing to help others, even when there isn't a disaster...

 

[BerndL]

FEMA’s Constitutional Authorization​

Please don't post AI slop. It's embarrassing

 

[cotter`]

FEMA’s Constitutional Authorization​

I understand your frustration with FEMA—its failures, like slow aid after Hurricanes Katrina, Maria, or Helene, have left many angry. But questioning its constitutional basis misses the mark IMO.

The Constitution doesn’t explicitly mention FEMA, just as it doesn’t name NASA or the CIA.

In the constitution, Article I, Section 8 empowers Congress to pass laws for the “general welfare” and make “necessary and proper” regulations, including creating agencies. In 1979 those mechanisms were used to establish FEMA as a federal agency.

To me the real issue isn’t FEMA’s existence—it’s how it operates.

Why FEMA Exists​

Before FEMA, states struggled with disasters, often leaving the federal government to clean up the mess. In the 1960s and 1970s, hurricanes like Betsy and Camille exposed fragmented federal programs and state under preparedness. Carter created FEMA to streamline aid and leverage federal resources. History shows states cut disaster budgets during quiet periods—Louisiana’s underfunded levees pre-Katrina are a prime example. Without FEMA, we risk repeating these failures, as states lack the consistent experience FEMA gains from responding to 100+ disasters annually, from wildfires to floods.

FEMA’s Real Problems​

Your anger is valid, but it’s better aimed at FEMA’s execution, not its mission to help before, during, and after disasters. Here are its biggest flaws, backed by evidence:

• Slow Responses: FEMA’s delayed aid during Katrina (2005), Maria (2017), and Helene (2024) left communities waiting weeks, with a 2006 Senate report citing poor planning.
• Bureaucracy: Complex aid applications denied 30–40% of applicants post-2017 hurricanes, per GAO reports, stalling recovery.
• Inequitable Aid: A 2021 study showed FEMA favors wealthier areas, with Puerto Rico receiving $1.5 billion less than needed after Maria.
• Staffing Shortages: In 2020, FEMA managed 230 disasters, including COVID-19, but 2024’s Helene and Milton stretched its 12,000-person workforce, leaving half of aid calls unanswered.
• Unqualified Leadership: Political appointees like Michael Brown (Katrina) lacked expertise, though reforms post-2006 improved some appointments.
• State Dependency: FEMA’s 75–100% cost reimbursements discourage state investment, as seen in California’s pre-2000s wildfire budget cuts.
• Underfunded Mitigation: Only 15% of FEMA’s budget goes to prevention (e.g., floodwalls), despite $1 in mitigation saving $6 in losses.
• Poor Communication: Misinformation, like 2024 X posts falsely claiming FEMA seized property, thrives due to unclear messaging.
• Graft and Bad Contracts: Post-Katrina, FEMA wasted $1 billion on faulty contracts for trailers, some contaminated with formaldehyde, per a 2008 EPA report.

A Better Path Forward?​

FEMA’s flaws are legion, but abolishing it suddenly is risky and not all states are equal. The push to suddenly shift disaster management back to states ignores the reality that it takes time to build capacity, hire staff, and budget effectively. A sudden transition could leave them unprepared, repeating pre-FEMA chaos. Reforming FEMA—mandating qualified administrators, streamlining aid, prioritizing mitigation, rooting out graft, making them more of an oversight/control that coordinates with States abilities seems to offer a smarter fix.

Throwing FEMA our and saying "the states can do it" reminds me of revolutions where people want change and revolt, but without planning for the future they often end up worse off.

And you can't even use your words you post ai garbage. But it is correct in that fema, cia, doe, usda etc are not the federal responsibility, nor should the feds legally be doing any such activities. If we want to manipulate the words of the Constitution then fedgod ought to be arming everyone with the latest 'arms'. See, there's no end to how far you can manipulate words, only you change them different than me, which is different than the next 'Constitutional scholar' in line.

 

[cotter`]

I view Trump’s actions as a large-scale economic and social experiment, one that, as a foreigner, doesn’t directly affect me much. While it’s likely he may fall short of achieving his stated goals, imagine the potential impact if his actions were to actually result in a stronger, more equitable United States. The benefits could extend not just to Americans, but to the world at large if they decide to copy his fission. Even the most likely scenario, when he fails, we will still have learned from it.

One of the most valuable lessons I’ve learned in my travels is that, no matter where I went, people are generally willing to help one another in times of need. Yes, there are always a few who retreat into fear, building bunkers, stockpiling food and ammunition in anticipation of chaos, but overall, I remain confident in the basic kindness of people, and their instinct to support others when it truly matters.

As for FEMA, maybe by removing it, you might end up with a more caring society where people are willing to help others, even when there isn't a disaster...

Take a look around. Those you describe as retreating, stockpiling ammo etc are the same ones that show up and know how to do things, most likely bring equipment and supplies to the game and willing to travel further. The country as a whole will be much better off without fema, depending on the undependable...

 

[svetz]

Please don't post AI slop. It's embarrassing

Interesting. What in my post was embarrassing to you? Seems good to me.

And you can't even use your words you post ai garbage.

So, to be garbage something in my post would have to be wrong...let me know what that was.

 

[Dagoth Ur Does Solar]

When Helene hit the southeast, practically all of the response was regional. Nearby states mobilized to help- that part is standard fare. At least the in southeast, it is super common for other southeastern states to mobilize their National Guard units and state resources to help neighbors in the event of a disaster. Of course, a good portion of the infrastructure repair is also managed by utility companies who have a vested interest to get customers back online. And friends and neighbors were out bringing food and drinks to the linemen, churches and community centers who did have power were letting people take hot showers or get water during certain hours.

Grocery stores like Publix had deployed huge emergency response trucks (which appeared to just be massive generators and gas tanks built into a semi trailer- really cool to see), they kept stores running so people could get what they need. Insurance companies had also set up field camps with trucks and agents to help people get started on damage claims immediately.

You have to take my word on this last one, but even the community at large in my area wasn't going crazy. I went to Walmart of all places in the aftermath to see what they had on hand. Everyone at the store was acting normal- nobody was loading up 30 packs of bottled water in their carts or losing their mind. I've never seen anything like that, especially at Walmart of all places.

What did FEMA do? Go door to door and tell people they might be eligible for money... Except "if it looks like a Trump supporter's house, then don't go near it."

I know, I am cherry picking that one incident- but it should be pretty indicative of how people feel about FEMA, at least in this part of the country. I'm sure there's some apparatus within FEMA that was actually doing something useful, but based off people's feelings here- and people in western North Carolina- I haven't heard ANYONE say anything good about FEMA.

Basically, in my area, FEMA seemed to have done absolutely fuck all. 100% of the response I saw was from state government, local government, utilities, private companies, churches, locals, etc. Basically everyone BUT the federal government.

I would rather see the money that funds FEMA go to fund state emergency response funds. I'm sure some of them will probably be useless/scandal ridden, but at least some of them will continue to be effective.

 

[svetz]

Communities Shine in Crises​

And friends and neighbors were out bringing food and drinks to the linemen, churches and community centers who did have power were letting people take hot showers or get water during certain hours.

My small town’s been just as amazing post-disaster, rallying together. The guy who owns the hardware store basically camped out there and used a notepad to jot down what people owed, trusting us to make it right when the power and telephone came back on line.

Big-City Woes​

You have to take my word on this last one, but even the community at large in my area wasn't going crazy.

I believe you.

My community wasn't going crazy and were very supportive too... but we live in a small town.

What did annoy us was people from the nearby "big" city driving down here and stockpiling because people stockpiled in their community and that created artificial outages here. It was so bad, the road was closed to non-resident traffic (until the state governor made us reopen it ; -). When there's a hurricane and the bridges are out or traffic isn't allowed on them everything goes well.

FEMA’s Fraud Problem​

What did FEMA do? Go door to door and tell people they might be eligible for money... Except "if it looks like a Trump supporter's house, then don't go near it."

FEMA was "officially" cleared of that accusation... but it did happen in that a FEMA supervisor in Florida instructed workers to skip them. She and four others were fired. So, hopefully it wasn't a wide pattern. But politics has no business in rescue/aid.

Distrust fuels FEMA’s bad rap, worsened by fraud. Katrina saw $1.4B in false claims. I've heard horror stories of people essentially robbing FEMA by documenting imaginary problems because the disaster was so widespread they knew they couldn't back-check.

The DOJ goes after them of course. It's up to 30 years in prison and a $250,000 fine (says so on the forms anyway). Doesn't seem to deter people. I remember hearing about a Texas case where 8 people got convicted of some 70 false applications? I think the big problem is people don't call the whistleblower hotline often enough. Will states do better I wonder?

North Carolina​

... western North Carolina- I haven't heard ANYONE say anything good about FEMA....

It did make headlines; but headlines like to be sensational and they don't like to say the good they did. Pretty sure there were politics at play too, which during crisis is despicable. They see 100 dead and $40 billion in damages and say why? But it was FEMA that provided 1 million liters of water and 600,000 meals, provided shelters and support, removed (with the army corps of engineers) 4 million cubic yards of debris, and provided rebuilding assistance.

The Invisible Hand​

Basically, in my area, FEMA seemed to have done absolutely fuck all. 100% of the response I saw was from state government, local government, utilities, private companies, churches, locals, etc. Basically everyone BUT the federal government.

FEMA management isn't necessarily FEMA on the ground doing things, so people don't see their efforts. They typically hire contractors to do things. That doesn't mean it isn't there. When people see food, water, rescues, medical personal... it's easy to thank them and not the mechanisms that made it possible.

I don't know your situation, but when Irma blew right over us I didn't see a FEMA anything other than people talking about how they might be eligible for money. But, behind the scenes they were coordinating across multiple counties and states and they took care of a lot people and things like getting power back on in the lower keys.

This is a Test...​

If you're so inclined, as a test, ask Grok what FEMA's involvement was in your county during the disaster you mentioned with substantiating links you can check out. Maybe they did nothing. Maybe is was more.

Local Government is almost always better, except ...​

But the bottom line is, can all the states do better individually with a short timeframe?

 

[svetz]

Please don't post AI slop. It's embarrassing

And you can't even use your words you post ai garbage.

I think you'd be challenged to find a prompt for an AI that could craft a post like that. If you can please share it as it would save me a lot of time.

Still...flattering.

Is it live, or Memorex/AI?​

But now I'm really curious.... let's ask an AI what it thinks:
Hey Deepmind, did an AI or a human write this post <snip>?

This is a tough one, as advanced AI can mimic human writing styles quite well. However, I lean towards HUMAN written, possibly with some AI assistance for research/fact-checking.

Here's the breakdown:

Arguments for Human:

1. Strong Voice and Opinion: Phrases like "misses the mark IMO," "To me the real issue isn't...", "Your anger is valid, but...", "reminds me of revolutions..." convey a distinct personal perspective and tone. This level of consistent voice and direct address ("I understand your frustration") feels very human.
2. Nuanced Argument: The piece doesn't just present facts; it builds a specific argument – defending FEMA's existence while heavily criticizing its execution and advocating for reform over abolition. This nuanced stance is typical of human argumentation.
3. Colloquialisms/Idioms: "misses the mark," "clean up the mess," "flaws are legion," "rooting out graft," "throwing FEMA out" (despite the typo "our") are natural human expressions.
4. Empathetic Framing: Acknowledging the reader's potential "frustration" and "anger" sets a human-like conversational tone.
5. Specific Analogy: The comparison to revolutions is a creative, illustrative analogy more characteristic of human thought processes.
6. Minor Imperfection: The typo "Throwing FEMA our" instead of "out" is a small error more common in human writing.

Arguments for AI:

1. Structured Format: Clear headings and bullet points make the information easy to digest, a common feature of AI-generated text designed for clarity.
2. Data Integration: The inclusion of specific dates, disaster names, agency reports (GAO, Senate, EPA), and statistics (percentages, dollar amounts, staffing numbers) shows an ability to pull and synthesize factual data, which AIs excel at.
3. Logical Flow: The argument progresses logically from constitutional basis to historical context, problems, and solutions.
4. Up-to-Date Info: Mentioning Hurricanes Helene and Milton from 2024 suggests access to very recent information.

Conclusion:
While an AI could generate a well-structured, fact-filled article, the consistent personal voice, nuanced opinion, specific analogy, and empathetic tone strongly suggest a human author crafted the core message and argument. The human author might have used AI tools to quickly gather some of the specific facts, dates, or report details cited, but the overall composition feels driven by human perspective and persuasive intent.

Can't believe I missed that typo after numerous edits to fix them, who would have thought it could be evidence? Now I feel compelled to leave it...which I really hate.

But is it Accurate?​

Can you do a fact check on it?

Overall Assessment: The text is largely accurate in its factual claims, reflecting well-documented history, common criticisms, and known statistics regarding FEMA. However, some figures are specific estimates that might vary slightly depending on the source or time period, and some claims require context.

Detailed Fact-Check:

1. Claim:Constitution doesn't explicitly mention FEMA, NASA, CIA.
   
   • Finding:Accurate. The Constitution establishes the framework of government but does not list specific agencies like these, which were created later by acts of Congress or Executive Orders.
2. Claim:Article I, Section 8 (General Welfare, Necessary and Proper clauses) empowers Congress to create agencies.
   
   • Finding:Accurate. These clauses are broadly interpreted as granting Congress the authority to establish federal entities deemed necessary to carry out its enumerated powers and provide for the general welfare.
3. Claim:FEMA was established in 1979 using these mechanisms.
   
   • Finding:Accurate. President Jimmy Carter created FEMA via Executive Order 12127 in 1979, consolidating various existing federal disaster-related agencies. This action was based on the perceived constitutional authority of the executive and legislative branches.
4. Claim:Pre-FEMA, states struggled, federal govt often cleaned up; Hurricanes Betsy (1965) & Camille (1969) exposed fragmented federal response.
   
   • Finding:Accurate. Historical accounts confirm a disjointed federal response involving numerous agencies prior to 1979. Major disasters like Betsy and Camille highlighted the inefficiencies and led to calls for consolidation.
5. Claim:Carter created FEMA to streamline aid and leverage federal resources.
   
   • Finding:Accurate. This was the stated goal of Executive Order 12127.
6. Claim:History shows states cut disaster budgets; Louisiana’s underfunded levees pre-Katrina cited.
   
   • Finding:Accurate, with context. While it's debated how much state budget cuts vs. federal (Army Corps of Engineers) funding and design issues contributed to the levee failures, the general principle that state/local disaster preparedness funding can fluctuate and be inadequate is well-documented. The reliance on federal aid can sometimes create a disincentive for robust local investment (often termed a "moral hazard").
7. Claim:FEMA responds to 100+ disasters annually.
   
   • Finding:Accurate. FEMA declares numerous major disasters and emergencies each year. The exact number varies, but it is frequently well over 100 when including all declaration types (major disasters, emergencies, fire management assistance). In some years, like 2020 (cited later), it was significantly higher.
8. Claim:Slow Responses: Katrina (2005), Maria (2017), Helene (2024) cited; 2006 Senate report cited poor planning (Katrina).
   
   • Finding:Accurate. FEMA's responses to Katrina and Maria were widely criticized for slowness and inefficiency. The 2006 Senate report ("Hurricane Katrina: A Nation Still Unprepared") heavily criticized FEMA and DHS leadership and planning. While response to Helene (2024) also faced some criticism, comparing its scale/impact directly to Katrina/Maria needs care, but delays were reported.
9. Claim:Bureaucracy: Complex aid applications denied 30–40% post-2017 hurricanes, per GAO reports.
   
   • Finding:Accurate, reflects reported figures. GAO reports and analyses by other groups have highlighted high denial rates for FEMA's Individual Assistance (IA) program due to complex documentation requirements, proof of ownership issues, etc. The 30-40% range aligns with reported figures for initial applications in some disaster contexts, though rates can vary.
10. Claim:Inequitable Aid: 2021 study showed FEMA favors wealthier areas; Puerto Rico received $1.5 billion less than needed after Maria.
    
    • Finding:Accurate, reflects specific study findings. Multiple studies and analyses (including academic ones potentially from 2021, and reports from groups like the Natural Resources Defense Council or investigations by news outlets) have suggested FEMA aid distribution can disproportionately benefit wealthier homeowners/communities or disadvantage marginalized groups. The specific $1.5 billion figure for Puerto Rico likely comes from a specific analysis comparing estimated needs vs. aid obligated/received at a certain point in time; quantifying the exact "need" is complex, but significant funding gaps were widely reported.
11. Claim:Staffing Shortages: 230 disasters in 2020 (incl. COVID); 12,000 staff stretched by Helene/Milton (2024); half of aid calls unanswered.
    
    • Finding:Mostly Accurate, Needs Context.
      
      • 230 Disasters in 2020: Plausible, considering COVID-19 declarations for all states/territories plus other disasters. FEMA indeed faced unprecedented operational tempo.
      • ~12,000 Staff: FEMA's permanent full-time workforce is around this number, but it relies heavily on a much larger pool of reservist (temporary) staff during major disasters. So the total deployed workforce can be higher, but strain is still real.
      • Stretched by Helene/Milton (2024): Accurate. Reports during the 2024 hurricane season indicated FEMA staff were significantly strained by the back-to-back major storms.
      • Half of aid calls unanswered: This specific statistic ("half") is hard to verify precisely and might be anecdotal or from a specific peak period report. However, reports of long wait times and difficulty reaching FEMA helplines during major surges are common and credible.
12. Claim:Unqualified Leadership: Michael Brown (Katrina) example; reforms post-2006 improved some appointments.
    
    • Finding:Accurate. Michael Brown's lack of prior emergency management experience was heavily criticized. The Post-Katrina Emergency Management Reform Act of 2006 (PKEMRA) included provisions requiring more relevant experience for the FEMA Administrator position.
13. Claim:State Dependency: 75–100% cost reimbursements discourage state investment; California pre-2000s wildfire budget cuts cited.
    
    • Finding:Accurate. FEMA typically covers at least 75% of eligible public assistance costs, sometimes 90% or 100% after very severe events. This cost-sharing structure is often cited as potentially reducing state/local incentives for mitigation and preparedness spending. While specific examples like California pre-2000s require detailed historical budget analysis, the general economic principle is widely discussed.
14. Claim:Underfunded Mitigation: Only 15% of budget to prevention; $1 in mitigation saves $6 in losses.
    
    • Finding:Mostly Accurate.
      
      • Mitigation Funding Percentage: The exact percentage varies year to year depending on appropriations and disaster spending, but mitigation funding (like BRIC, HMGP) is consistently a much smaller portion of FEMA's overall budget compared to response and recovery. 15% might be a reasonable estimate or specific year figure, but the core point (it's underfunded relative to response/recovery) is correct.
      • $1 Saves $6: This specific ratio (or similar ones like
        
        <span><span>1:</span><span><span><span></span><span>1</span><span></span><span>:</span></span></span></span>
        4,
        <span><span>1:</span><span><span><span></span><span>1</span><span></span><span>:</span></span></span></span>
        11 depending on the type of mitigation) comes from studies by the National Institute of Building Sciences (NIBS) and is widely cited, considered a credible estimate of the ROI for disaster mitigation.
15. Claim:Poor Communication: Misinformation example (2024 X posts falsely claiming FEMA seized property).
    
    • Finding:Accurate. Misinformation and rumors often spread during disasters. Claims about FEMA confiscating property or supplies are a recurring type of disinformation, and instances were reported on social media platforms like X (Twitter) during the 2024 hurricane season.
16. Claim:Graft and Bad Contracts: Post-Katrina, $1 billion wasted on faulty/contaminated trailers (EPA report 2008).
    
    • Finding:Accurate. Extensive reporting by GAO, the DHS Inspector General, and news media documented significant waste, fraud, and abuse in post-Katrina contracting. The figure of $1 billion+ in waste is commonly cited. The issue with formaldehyde contamination in FEMA trailers was well-documented, investigated by Congress, and subject to EPA reports (including around 2008).

Conclusion:
The provided text demonstrates a good understanding of FEMA's history, constitutional standing, operational challenges, and common criticisms. The factual claims presented are overwhelmingly accurate and align with government reports, historical records, and reputable analyses.

So, seems at least one AI thinks the post was well written, accurate, and human generated. Typically when I use AIs I provide the prompts as shown in this post so readers can duplicate the query if needed. But I do also use them to get numbers, names, and dates when I think there's some relevance to them; the onus being on me to validate it.

 

[D71]

I can about imagine svetz writing love stories to his future sex ai toy.

 

[cotter`]

AI is garbage in, garbage out. If the 'general welfare' clause covers fema why the 10th ammendment? Why not just say congress can do what ever the fuck they want and can get away with?

Cut and paste ai does not suffice except to rob band width...

 

[Chispas]

Why not just say congress can do what ever the fuck they want and can get away with?

Or maybe vote in a President who rules with executive orders ?

 

[svetz]

AI is garbage in, garbage out.

You’re spot-on that "garbage in, garbage out" is a real issue.

Remember the old joke "I saw it on the internet, it must be true." Garbage isn't from AIs; it's everywhere. It is from the internet, news outlets, propaganda in TV shows, or us.

Disagreements on the forum comes from posters that try to correct what they see as misinformation. One or both sides must have some misinformation to be in disagreement or discussion (good thing or the forums would be boring ; -). The spin of the news sources can be very hard to spot. AI’s are no different—its data comes from humans, so it can reflect human biases or errors. That’s why users should always ask for sources and verify their credibility. When dealing with AIs, get the prompts, ask for links to sources, do the research.

My belief is that AIs are powerful tools and we'd be stupid to not use them to help get to the truth. I get you're not happy with them, but in my experience they are frequently less biased and more accurate than posters.

So, again I'll ask... you claim garbage in my post... but what was misinformation?

If the 'general welfare' clause covers fema why the 10th ammendment? Why not just say congress can do what ever the fuck they want and can get away with?

If Congress could truly do "whatever ... they want," the 10th wouldn’t exist. You should love the 10th Amendment, it's the one that exists to limit federal overreach. Whether it is a federal or state responsibility is always a balance of what's best for the people, and can and does change over time, often times ending up in the courts.

In the case of FEMA, as far as I know, there were no challenges by any state explicitly objecting to FEMA’s creation on the grounds of losing sovereign powers.

Part of that is probably because states are not required to use FEMA, in fact state's must request FEMA's aid before they can get involved. Furthermore, states have ultimate control over emergency management within their borders, with FEMA playing a supportive role. But you know what states can do? Invite them in and then place any blame for stuff that goes wrong on them. Nuanced innuendo is a powerful thing.

That said, see my prior posts for all the issues FEMA does have. Like many federal agencies, things need to be corrected.