Design Review. System for 2022 Toyota Sienna Hybrid.

WNCGUY

New Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2021
Messages
71
I submitted this in the Vehicle mounted section then realized it should be put here.

Please scroll down to read background and questions.




Sienna wiring plan.png

Submitting my design for a first-round review. This is the first time I have attempted to design a system so please critique to help me build a robust and safe system. In the event you find ways to simply the design please let me know.

We purchased a 2022 Toyota Sienna Hybrid for use as our travel vehicle in retirement. The goal is to see the country, not spend too much time in the van, by this I mean be outside by day exploring, hiking, enjoying the outdoors or city sights with only breakfast, lunch and dinners or rainy day stuck in the van. In short only be inside during eating, evening rest, sleeping.

The system goal is to power a refrigerator, and a few other items for up to a 2 night stay in one location, move on driving to the next stop for hours while the house battery recharges. You'll notice I did not in include solar, this could be a mistake, but I prefer to leave the roof space for a cargo carrier but can add later if needed.
I have checked the current that the traction battery sends to the van 12-volt battery. A ten-minute drive with a clamp on amp meter set on max recorded 28.8 amps. I also have monitored the current with the van parked and watched current as low as 8 amps. I am connecting the clamp meter onto the red conductor from the traction battery, if I need to check other locations, please advise. I feel I do need to get gather more data on available current at the 12v battery, I need to know what the average available current is and am concerned the 28.8 amps recorded my only be start up amps. Any suggestions?

A couple of questions.
1) You will notice I included a Victron Isolated DC to DC charger; I was previously advised isolated was the correct one to use but I have no idea why? If a non-isolated charger is a better option or the correct one to use, please let me know
2) When parked with van left in ready, would the van traction battery continue to charge the SOK 206ah house battery as needed? In ready the ICE should start as needed to recharge the traction battery’
3) When parked van turned off, would the SOK battery dray any power from the van 12v battery, not good because the van ICE cannot be started without it.
 

mikefitz

Photon Sorcerer
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
1,783
Some issues.
The Orion instructions state 60 amp fuses and 10mm2 (7awg) cable. the fuses at the battery in each case.
Assuming you have a 'master' fuse direct on the house battery positive, the fuse protecting the cable to the Orion output should be at the positive buss bar.
Also the fuse protecting the cable and inverter should be at the bus bar, as should be a fuse, ( missing on the diagram) in the feed to the DC fuse box
a non-isolated charger is a better option
Your diagram shows the house battery and the vehicle battery both connected to chassis/body, thus an isolated version is not needed
When parked with van left in ready,
Don't understand the question. The Orion will start to charge the house battery when the vehicle battery reaches the pre programmed voltage level in the Orion. See Orion instructions for the default condition and programming if requited.
van turned off, would the SOK battery dray any power from the van 12v battery,
No, the Orion will switch of the charge mode when the voltage at the vehicle battery falls below a pre determined level.

I assume the 12v vehicle battery for the vans 12v system is only charged when the vehicle is operating either under ICE or traction battery/motor. It would seem illogical to charge when the vehicle is switched off.

If there are problems with the Orion being incompatible with the vehicle battery voltages ( that are normally used to initiate and stop the charge process), then there are control inputs, H and L on the Orion that can be used to force charge and also stop charge. Again the Orion instructions explain all this.
A ten-minute drive with a clamp on amp meter set on max recorded 28.8 amps. I also have monitored the current with the van parked and watched current as low as 8 amps.
I would expect the current to the 12v battery to be very low with the vehicle parked and switched off.
What you need to establish is the maximum current the system can push into the 12v vehicle battery. I assume this battery operates the ABS system lights, heater, AC, power steering and so on. The 30 amp Orion will take 35 to 40 amps from the vehicle battery when charging the house battery at 30 amps.

I am connecting the clamp meter onto the red conductor from the traction battery
Is the the feed to the 12v vehicle battery positive. I would expect the power to be derived from a DC to DC converter, rather than a 12v alternator on the engine.
The traction battery is small, the capacity is less than the SOC house battery, so you don't want to extract power from is unless the engine is running.
Summary, before committing to a 30amp B2B charger you need to confirm the safe 'spare' current the system allows to the vehicle battery.

Dont consider a battery charger like the Noco Genius. It may damage both batteries. Victron have a range of battery chargers that can be user programmed for a safe and efficient charge profile for Lithium or your vehicle battery, (that I guess is AGM).

Mike
 

WNCGUY

New Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2021
Messages
71
Some issues.
The Orion instructions state 60 amp fuses and 10mm2 (7awg) cable. the fuses at the battery in each case.
Assuming you have a 'master' fuse direct on the house battery positive, the fuse protecting the cable to the Orion output should be at the positive buss bar.
Also the fuse protecting the cable and inverter should be at the bus bar, as should be a fuse, ( missing on the diagram) in the feed to the DC fuse box
Updated drawing as follows.
Added 60 amp fuse and 7 awg wire at vehicle battery to Orion
Added 60 amp fuse moving it to be near busbar.
Identified master fuse at house battery, 250 amp.
Inverter fuse relocated to busbar.
Added fuse to DC fuse box but not sure what size it should be.

Your diagram shows the house battery and the vehicle battery both connected to chassis/body, thus an isolated version is not needed
Updated drawing to non-isolated Orion
Don't understand the question. The Orion will start to charge the house battery when the vehicle battery reaches the pre programmed voltage level in the Orion. See Orion instructions for the default condition and programming if requited.
If I understand, this will allow the charging of the house battery anytime the van is in ready mode, power on.
No, the Orion will switch of the charge mode when the voltage at the vehicle battery falls below a pre determined level.
This was a concern, thank you for confirming.
I assume the 12v vehicle battery for the vans 12v system is only charged when the vehicle is operating either under ICE or traction battery/motor. It would seem illogical to charge when the vehicle is switched off.
This is also my understanding.
If there are problems with the Orion being incompatible with the vehicle battery voltages ( that are normally used to initiate and stop the charge process), then there are control inputs, H and L on the Orion that can be used to force charge and also stop charge. Again the Orion instructions explain all this.

I would expect the current to the 12v battery to be very low with the vehicle parked and switched off.
I measured power off, 0.8 amp at the smaller positive wire and 1.6 amp at the larger wire.
What you need to establish is the maximum current the system can push into the 12v vehicle battery. I assume this battery operates the ABS system lights, heater, AC, power steering and so on. The 30 amp Orion will take 35 to 40 amps from the vehicle battery when charging the house battery at 30 amps.
Any suggestions where to find available amps?
My clamp meter turns off after 15 minutes, if beneficial I could drive 10 min, take a reading and repeat, recording current values?

Is the the feed to the 12v vehicle battery positive. I would expect the power to be derived from a DC to DC converter, rather than a 12v alternator on the engine.
There are two wires going to the 12v battery they are fused 140 and 220 amp. I do not think there is an alternator.
The traction battery is small, the capacity is less than the SOC house battery, so you don't want to extract power from is unless the engine is running.
Summary, before committing to a 30amp B2B charger you need to confirm the safe 'spare' current the system allows to the vehicle battery.
And this is the big unknown, searching the internet I find little information pertaining to available current.

These are conversations from another site where some have used an Orion isolated with some success. Hopefully they provide some useful information.


Dont consider a battery charger like the Noco Genius. It may damage both batteries. Victron have a range of battery chargers that can be user programmed for a safe and efficient charge profile for Lithium or your vehicle battery, (that I guess is AGM).
I removed the Noco Genius and included to Victron options on the drawing. Makes me glad that I decided not to spend one cent of parts until I had an approved drawing.

Thank you for helping me, I really am out of my league here but hope with help I can complete this project.
Don


Sienna wiring plan Rev 2.png


IMG_0402.JPG
 

WNCGUY

New Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2021
Messages
71
Mike,

This is a thread I started back in November, before I took van delivery. Just trying to share as much as I can in hopes of getting the help I need.

 

WNCGUY

New Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2021
Messages
71
Additional information.
I figured out how to turn off auto shutdown on my clamp on current meter and happened to have to take a 250-mile drive today.

With the meter connected to the larger battery positive wire I recorded a max value of 34.6 amps after driving for at least an hour. Resetting the meter and driving for at least another hour recorded a max of 41.9 amps.

Is this information useful?
 
Last edited:

WNCGUY

New Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2021
Messages
71
Looks like I posted the same link twice, this is the second link I wanted to share.

 

WNCGUY

New Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2021
Messages
71
Hello, would someone please help me by reviewing the design. I am happy to make any changes to assure I have a safe, robust design.

Thank you
 

WNCGUY

New Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2021
Messages
71
Nothing jumps out as a concern. I'm not checking each of the wire gauges and lengths for ampacity or voltage drop. A few comments:



View attachment 87636
Responses.
  1. Total wire length for 206ah hattery and Giandel inverter is 14'. This includes both positive and negative wires.
  2. "Any implications connecting fridge to AC and DC at the same time". Good question I will have to research this. Wondering how to make this not relay on memory when changing from house to shore power?
  3. Fuse for DC fuse box. The DC fuse box is rated for 100 amps so needed fuse would be 125 amps?
Additional question regarding the Victron Battery charger. Can it simply be connected to the positive and negative bus bars? Any concerns or a on off switch needed?

My intention is to shorten all wire lengths as much as possible, once I know I have a sage design and then will adjust fuse sizes and ask for a final review. Some may ask why I am using a 2200-watt inverter; short answer is I would like to also be able to provide some basic power to my home in the event of a power outage.

Thank you for your help!
 

sunshine_eggo

Happy Breffast!
Joined
Oct 26, 2021
Messages
7,866
Location
HBR, USA (6500' in ENE AZ)
Responses.
  1. Total wire length for 206ah hattery and Giandel inverter is 14'. This includes both positive and negative wires.

Understood.

  1. "Any implications connecting fridge to AC and DC at the same time". Good question I will have to research this. Wondering how to make this not relay on memory when changing from house to shore power?

Hopefully, it has its own means of preferring one input over another.

  1. Fuse for DC fuse box. The DC fuse box is rated for 100 amps so needed fuse would be 125 amps?

125A would be too high for 8awg.

Additional question regarding the Victron Battery charger. Can it simply be connected to the positive and negative bus bars?

Yes.

Any concerns or a on off switch needed?

You could make the 60A fuse a breaker.

My intention is to shorten all wire lengths as much as possible, once I know I have a sage design and then will adjust fuse sizes and ask for a final review.

Good plan. My endorsement does not qualify as "sage design." Please read the disclaimer in my signature. :)

Some may ask why I am using a 2200-watt inverter; short answer is I would like to also be able to provide some basic power to my home in the event of a power outage.

I'm not asking. That particular inverter seems to have a relatively low idle draw. You might want to run a microwave too. I'm not judging.
 

WNCGUY

New Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2021
Messages
71
My part time retirement job has kept me busy the past few days; I just now had the opportunity to make some of what I think are needed changes to the drawing. Correct me where I am wrong.
1) Change positive wire size from 12v battery to Victron from 7 AWG to 6 AWG. Seems 6 is a more common wire size.
2) Blue Sea DC fuse box. Change positive/negative wires from 8 AWG to 2 AWG. Fuse box is rated for max 100 amps. My thought is if the box is rated for 100 amps, then it should be wired to support 100 amps, even if not planned to use all 100 amps.
3) Added 125-amp fuse to DC fuse box positive wire.
4) Changed DC fuse box to Fridge wire from 8 AWG 12.5'ea (25") to 6 AWG 15'ea (30").
5) SOK Battery. Changed fuse from 250 amp to 225 amp. Shortened battery cables from 7'ea (14') to 2'ea (4'),
6) Inverter. Changed cables from 7'ea (14') to 2'ea (4').

I am concerned I may be over/under sized with my wires and fuses.

Additional questions
Fuses Selection, looking for recommendations. Are Mega fuses a lover cost option?
12v battery to Victron. What type of fuse can be used? See pic of 12v battery connection in post #3
SOK battery. Battery mounted thermal fuse block. Other type?
Victron to bus bar, Bus bar to DC fuse box, and bus bar to inverter. ANL? Mega? other type?



Sienna wiring plan Rev 3.png
 
Last edited:

PaulSilva

New Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2023
Messages
1
Location
NJ
This is an old thread but I was wondering: What did you end up doing? Did you ever think about using the Sienna inverter just plug it into 1500W plug?
 

WNCGUY

New Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2021
Messages
71
This is my winter project, all parts and components have been purchased, just need to find time to get it done! My Sienna doesn't have the factory 1500w inverter, the design I will build will provide both AC and DC power without running the ICE.
 
Top