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Designer says my system size is limited by my mains disconnect?

hhtat

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Hi folks. Can someone help me make sense of what my system designer is telling me. They're saying I'm limited to a 3.8kW system due to the size of my mains disconnect at the meter. My house is laid out like this:
  • Meter is at the curb with a 125A breaker/disconnect
  • Underground run to my house (some trees that will make digging a new run difficult)
  • Mains panel in my garage (unknown size but at least 125A) - no additional disconnect
They're saying if I put a 125A breaker/disconnect in the mains panel I could go up to 5kW but anything beyond that would require a line side tap which means digging all the way to the meter.

The thing that's clear to me is I'm limited to load side tap unless I want to dig through some trees. What's confusing is that, assuming my mains panel is 125A, I should have 25A to work based on the 120% rule. That's 6kW - not 3.8kW. Also, if I wanted to go higher, why can't I upgrade my mains panel? Also, why does adding a 125A breaker/disconnect to the existing panel change anything?

I'm in central Texas if that matters any.
 
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The designer may be confused. The 120% rule is for the rating of the bus bar in your panel. If you have a 125A main breaker, your main bus bar should be rated for at least 125A at which point you are correct in that you can add 125 * 0.20 = 25A for each phase (assuming this is a split phase 120/240V system since you are in the USA) which is 120*25*2 = 6 kW. Check the rating of the bus bar in your main panel if you can -- I thought most service in the USA was 200A for each phase, so you may have a 200A bus bar at which point you can do up to 200*1.2 - 125 = 115A of solar per phase.

I agree that you should be able to just upgrade the panel if the bus bar doesn't have a high-enough rating. You may have an export limit that needs to be configured in the inverter.

Have a read through this and share it with the designer: https://www.kumukit.com/pdf/support...onal Electric Code (NEC) 120-Percent Rule.pdf
 
I would need to see what he is using as a guide.
It sounds like the mains panel isn’t fed with 125A wiring from the meter... your mains panel doesn’t have a breaker?

I’m confused where you plan to feed the PV, where the garage panel is fed from, and the house panel.

please clarify.
 
25A breaker is to carry 20A continuous load (breaker sized 25% larger).
20A x 240V = 4800W (not 3.8kW)
That would be if you backfeed the breaker panel, and it is rated 125A.

Is the only breaker panel the one at your house, which also has garage?
Where the main breaker and meter is located, is there no breaker panel?
If so, I think this is the ideal case. All you have to do is turn off the main breaker to work on the system, and you can install either a main breaker on the panel, or replace the panel.

If you put a 125A main breaker on the panel, you can tap off the wire between meter/breaker and panel/breaker to install an additional panel (or just fused disconnect) for PV. It could be up to 125A. All other branches are protected, so no wire and no busbar will ever see over 125A. You can drive up to 100A continuous through 125A breaker, so 24 kW of PV.

If you replace your main-lug panel with a new Square D QO panel having 225A busbar and 150A main breaker, 120% of 225A = 270A. 270A - 150A = 120A. You can put up to 120A of PV breaker at the far end of the busbar. 80% x 120A = 96A continuous. 96A x 240V = 23kW PV supported.
 
If you put a 125A main breaker on the panel, you can tap off the wire between meter/breaker and panel/breaker to install an additional panel (or just fused disconnect) for PV. It could be up to 125A. All other branches are protected, so no wire and no busbar will ever see over 125A. You can drive up to 100A continuous through 125A breaker, so 24 kW of PV.
That's a good idea to avoid the cost of a new panel.
 
It sounds like the mains panel isn’t fed with 125A wiring from the meter... your mains panel doesn’t have a breaker?
@Supervstech, the mains panel in the garage is fed by an underground run from the meter at the curb. Yes, there no breaker/disconnect on the mains panel just the 125A breaker/disconnect on the meter at the curb. I think the underground run has to be rated at least 125A.

Is the only breaker panel the one at your house, which also has garage? Where main breaker and meter is located, is there no breaker panel?
Yes, the only panel is at the garage. The meter has the main breaker/disconnect but no panel.

If you put a 125A main breaker on the panel, you can tap off the wire between meter/breaker and panel/breaker to install an additional panel (or just fused disconnect) for PV.
@Hedges, that's a really good idea. I'll run this by the designer. They suggested adding a breaker on the panel but with a backfeed breaker instead of a tap like you suggested. It's hard to tell if I'm dealing with an inexperienced designer or if there's some complex local codes at work.
 
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They suggested adding a breaker on the panel but with a backfeed breaker instead of a tap like you suggested. It's hard to tell if I'm dealing with an inexperienced designer or if there's some complex local codes at work.
If they are like any of the installers in my local area, since the code is difficult to understand, they just do what worked and passed inspection on the previous jobs. If they still refuse without a specific code reference, you can probably get an electrician in to setup the subpanel (I think officially your panel in your house is a subpanel as well) and then get the solar company back.

Let us know the outcome!
 
ok, I bet what is wrong is your mains feeder is sized by the .85 rule, as such it is only capable of sustaining 106.5 a, and the calculation for solar at 120% is limiting you from there. I still get more than they do, but it could be the issue.
Changing your main lug panel to a main breaker panel would improve the situation by removing the cable run from contention.
 
@Hedges, that's a really good idea. I'll run this by the designer. They suggested adding a breaker on the panel but with a backfeed breaker instead of a tap like you suggested. It's hard to tell if I'm dealing with an inexperienced designer or if there's some complex local codes at work.

How many watts of PV do you want to install?

How many amps do you really need for the house? My 125A panels (Square D QO) accept 125A, 100A, or 70A main breakers. If you put a 100A main breaker in it (good for 80A continuous), (125 x 1.2) - 100 = 50A PV breaker allowed. 50 x 0.8 = 40A continuous. 240V x 40A = 9600W PV limit.

With a tap before the new "main" breaker on existing panel, you might add an additional PV breaker panel. That panel could also be subject to 120% rule; it would have its own main breaker plus one or more PV breakers not to exceed 120% of its busbar. I think a PV "aggregator" panel with only breakers for PV inverters but no loads is exempt, like PV breaker and main breakers each up to 100% of busbar rating. But panels aren't that expensive, could put in a large enough one with a small main breaker to comply with 120% and have loads allowed to. e.g. 225A panel with 150A main, or 125A panel with 70A main.

You might be required to have a lockable visible blade disconnect, in which case that with fuses could be the only thing fed by the tap, and would work with a single inverter (give suitable amperage fuses.) Something like this:



Would you want battery backup now or in the future? If so, plan for it when putting in PV. Some models of GT PV inverter work well with add-on battery backup. Some, you have a choice of other models - I think instead of SolarEdge you can select StorEdge which accepts PV input and optional battery. Enphase microinverters can have work with added battery inverters. I think Sol Ark is one of the batteries-optional hybrids. SMA offers separate battery inverters. In many cases, the battery choices are fairly expensive. Some are compatible with several battery chemistries and DIY batteries; batteries can be a fraction the price this way.

Some inverters can operate without batteries and produce a limited amount of AC (given available PV) to power a few loads while the grid is down.

You could have a hybrid or PV & battery inverter connected through a tap, feeding a protected loads panel. That would keep some loads operating during a power failure. It could be wired through an interlocked breaker to feed existing panel like a generator would.
 
ok, I bet what is wrong is your mains feeder is sized by the .85 rule, as such it is only capable of sustaining 106.5 a, and the calculation for solar at 120% is limiting you from there. I still get more than they do, but it could be the issue.
Thanks, didn't know about this rule. I always assumed conductors behind a fuse/breaker had to be rated higher.

How many watts of PV do you want to install?
I want at least 9kW with room to grow. That'll cover everything peak summer months. It's all gas appliances down here but who knows what the future will be likely with a big push for green policy. Oh and likely an EV in the garage in the future?

Would you want battery backup now or in the future?
No, they just don't make much financial sense right now - I would consider them if cost came way down or if blackouts becomes more common here in central Texas.

Some inverters can operate without batteries and produce a limited amount of AC (given available PV) to power a few loads while the grid is down.
I'm going with an Sunny Boy inverter from SMA for this reason. It can power an isolated 20A circuit without batteries in grid down situations. After the deadly Texas freeze... any hope helps.
 
Some good news... I opened up the panel in the garage and looks like I've a 200A load center. It should give us plenty of room for a load side tap. At worse, the code might require a breaker/disconnect to be install in the panel which shouldn't be too costly.?

If an additional breaker/disconnect is needed, I might ask them to size it at 150A instead 125A to make room for more loads in the future.
 
If that is a 200A load center fed by 125A main breaker at the meter (and no other panels or loads anywhere but that panel), I don't see what the problem is. I also don't see the need to even install a main breaker in the panel. Ought to be able to install up to 75A of PV breaker in any slot, and nothing would be overloaded. With 120%, 240A total of breakers, having 125A main breaker at meter and up to 115A of PV breakers at far end of panel should be OK.

The new Sunny Boys are up to 7.7 kW, 32A, so used with at least 40A breaker. I would think a pair of 40A breakers could go in far end of the panel to support two Sunny Boy.

This is assuming main lugs are at one end of panel. If center-fed, can't use 120% rule. I would think center-fed is OK of main + PV breakers do not exceed 100% of busbar rating.
 
It's top fed. I do have two 70A breakers feeding a sub-panel at the bottom end. I'm not using the dryer circuit so I can free up slots 9 & 11. I think my options are:
  1. Backfeed through 9 & 11
  2. Move subpanel to 9 & 11 and backfeed through very end
  3. Figure out if I can backfeed through subpanel
My preference is #2

1622388345575.png
 
All positions filled. You could put in some tandem breakers to free up slots.
Read labels, see if that is 200A or 225A busbar.
The panel and breaker style looks like Square D Homeline.

It is only if multiple panels connected to the fat wires between 125A main breaker and this panels main lugs that I would have to make sure nobody gets overloaded. For instance, if a tap used to separate PV circuit, both PV and grid would feed current into this panel.

Main lugs (or main breaker if added) feed one end. What is smallest available main breaker? If Homeline, I think 150A.
I'm not completely sure if NEC and 120% rule is considered based on the 125A breaker at meter which feeds this panel, or if they require a main breaker installed in the panel just so they can see by inspection what the current limit is.

If you put in a main breaker, you can add an interlock and a backfed breaker as generator input. Maybe 150A main, 30A generator breaker. That would let you use a gasoline generator or battery inverter to feed any loads desired.

200A x 1.2 = 240A
240A - 150A = 90A
Install two, 40A breakers at far end of busbar for two Sunny Boy.

I started with Sunny Boys, then added Sunny Island. My house is powered like that, so on UPS. I have interlocked breakers to let me power garage if desired. Another battery inverter is Sunny Boy Storage with separate transfer switch. That inverter is limited to 6kW. As you note, not cost effective. A DC Solar trailer for around $8000, two Sunny Islands and two forklift batteries, would be a good deal but still no return on investment.

Will your utility rates change when you install PV and get net metering?
If you can over-panel the Sunny Boy, with some PV strings facing South East and some facing South West, you'll get more kWh/day for a given maximum kW system. That lets you deliver more power within any export limits and any breaker panel limits.
If you have time of use rates, it is cheaper to just give the utility extra kWh during low times than it would be to use batteries to store power for export later or for peak-load shaving. Even if peak rates are 3x the price of off-peak, installing 3x the PV capacity is more economical than batteries to store power - batteries cost at least 2x what PV does.
 
Good eye. It's a Homeline Square D alright - a HOM30L200C to be exact. I believe it's a 200A bus bar. The smallest mains breaker they list on the brochure is 100A but 150A makes more sense to me.

I started with Sunny Boys, then added Sunny Island.
Nice, how do you like the Sunny Boy inverter? Do you have optimizers installed? The only shadow I've to worry about is a chimney so I'm planning to go without them for the initial install.

200A x 1.2 = 240A
240A - 150A = 90A
Install two, 40A breakers at far end of busbar for two Sunny Boy.
Silly question... would a single inverter backfeeding via two 40A breakers count as 40A or 80A towards the 90A ceiling? If the former, I should have room for another inverter in the future, right?

Will your utility rates change when you install PV and get net metering?
Currently they pay a flat rate of $0.0445/kW for export and $0.08518/kW for pulling. Starting next year, it'll become TOU and a Peak Demand Charge will be added at $5.15 per kW ?
 
Even if peak rates are 3x the price of off-peak, installing 3x the PV capacity is more economical than batteries to store power - batteries cost at least 2x what PV does.
A very good rule of thumb there, but it does assume you have space for the PV panels and a maximum 3x peak-to-off-peak ratio.

In my case I am limited to a fixed PV array size of 13.9KW due to space, a maximum export power of 5KW, and a variable-rate plan with the peak-to-off-peak price over a 24-hour period averages around 8x with a few excursions of 10x+. In this case, most of the cost savings come from load-shifting with the batteries. The PV panels just provide a fixed-cost power source and function as backup power when the grid fails.
 
A very good rule of thumb there, but it does assume you have space for the PV panels and a maximum 3x peak-to-off-peak ratio.

In my case I am limited to a fixed PV array size of 13.9KW due to space, a maximum export power of 5KW, and a variable-rate plan with the peak-to-off-peak price over a 24-hour period averages around 8x with a few excursions of 10x+. In this case, most of the cost savings come from load-shifting with the batteries. The PV panels just provide a fixed-cost power source and function as backup power when the grid fails.

8x to 10x? Sounds like commercial lithium would be aroun break-even, and DIY LiFePO4 is quite cost effective.

Have you put in a battery system yet?

5kW export seems unreasonably low. I think that was the size we could install without doing anything to demonstrate higher consumption.
My peak time is 4:00 to 9:00 PM, 5 hours with limited sun. In your case, you might need 25 kWh to store what you couldn't export when it was made. Maybe 60 kWh to shift all of it to other times.
 
Good eye. It's a Homeline Square D alright - a HOM30L200C to be exact. I believe it's a 200A bus bar. The smallest mains breaker they list on the brochure is 100A but 150A makes more sense to me.


Nice, how do you like the Sunny Boy inverter? Do you have optimizers installed? The only shadow I've to worry about is a chimney so I'm planning to go without them for the initial install.


Silly question... would a single inverter backfeeding via two 40A breakers count as 40A or 80A towards the 90A ceiling? If the former, I should have room for another inverter in the future, right?


Currently they pay a flat rate of $0.0445/kW for export and $0.08518/kW for pulling. Starting next year, it'll become TOU and a Peak Demand Charge will be added at $5.15 per kW ?

I think main breakers of 70A, 100A, 125A are for a smaller panel, and 150A and 200A for the larger.

The Sunny Boys have done well. First 5 SWR2500U, installed 2003 to 2005. One failed in warranty and a board was replaced. One failed out of warranty; I could see a blown power transistor. I rearranged panels. Turned out these models didn't work with Sunny Island.

I got 10000TLUS because it was listed as compatible. I discovered "backup" didn't work. SMA told me to set up for off-grid, with Sunny Island between it and the grid, and they updated their compatibility list. That worked, but I think this transformerless inverter got upset by VFD on my pool pump.

I bought a pallet of 5000US, which are transformer type. I expect them to withstand the poor PF from VFD, but haven't run a test yet. They do have "backup" mode working.

No optimizers, no RSD, no AFCI (included but not enabled at least in the 10000TLUS.) My panels are ground mount and were done before new rules, so none of those required.

I think optimizers are mostly for multiple orientations in a single string. They could also help with partial shading if you have multiple strings in parallel. If you get new model Sunny Boy, they have 2 or 3 MPPT, so you'll probably have one PV string per MPPT, no need for optimizers.

Bypass diodes take care of shading for single strings. If you have two strings and partial shading, a small amount will let the IV curve have a single maxima, no problem. If enough shaded that the curve has two maxima, only some MPPT algorithms will find the higher one. SMA claims their newer algorithms are improved.

AFCI - I've read that SMA's inverters used to nuisance trip so much that installers had to use a different brand. Presumably they've fixed that by now, but I don't know.

Sunny Boy frequency shift response with Sunny Island works well. Off grid, my system hovers between 61 Hz and 62 Hz during daylight, drawing what it wants from PV.

With Sunny Boy and Sunny Island (US 120V model), maximum PV that can pass through relays to the grid is 6.7 kW per Sunny Island. So if you get 7.7 kW Sunny Boy and later add Sunny Island, you might readjust the maximum output.


Breakers - one Sunny Boy would use a 2 pole 40A breaker. Two Sunny Boys is where you would use two such breakers. That would be 40 + 40 = 80A OCP (on each phase) and the main 150A, so 230A total. Within the 240A limit.

So you will have TOU (what rates? what hours?) And then the demand charge. Maybe you can reduce your peak consumption, something like disable dryer heater or whatever loads, using a priority switching system. There are also the various Sunny Island and Sunny Boy Storage battery inverters, but have to see if they're a clear financial winner or not.
 
8x to 10x? Sounds like commercial lithium would be aroun break-even, and DIY LiFePO4 is quite cost effective.

Have you put in a battery system yet?
Still putting everything together. Two 8KW Deye hybrid inverters (connected in parallel) arrived this week. The LiFePo4 cells (DIY 43 KWh) and solar panels finally made it on a boat after several months of waiting and then the boat got quarantined. It should leave this week, so I'll hopefully have everything in 6 to 8 weeks.

5kW export seems unreasonably low. I think that was the size we could install without doing anything to demonstrate higher consumption.
My peak time is 4:00 to 9:00 PM, 5 hours with limited sun. In your case, you might need 25 kWh to store what you couldn't export when it was made. Maybe 60 kWh to shift all of it to other times.
Yes, 5KW is low. The power company said 10KW maximum export, but when I went to do the final export application, the fine print stated 5KW per phase. My grid connection is standard New Zealand single phase which is 230V 50Hz at 63A = 14.490 KW. I do think the 60 kWH battery sizing is about right. Once I get the system up and running and have some logs, I'll probably build another battery.

Anyway, back to @hhtat's topic. Didn't mean to hijack it.
 
So you will have TOU (what rates? what hours?) And then the demand charge.
Detailed rates attached. Peak summer is about 2.9x compared to economy rates at night. Peak winter is only about 1.5x. It seems there will be two peak demand based charges:
  • A Peak Demand Charge at $5.15/kW - calculated monthly, basically the max hourly kW demand during peak hours
  • A Transmission Cost of Service Charge/Credit at ~$5/kW - calculated yearly, demand during peak 15 minute of each summer month (averaged across 4 months) - ERCOT calls this "4CP"
TOU & Transmission is net but peak demand is not (no credit).

Maybe you can reduce your peak consumption, something like disable dryer heater or whatever loads, using a priority switching system.
In the peak times, the big draw is the HVAC and unfortunately there's not much more we can are willing to do usage wise.
 

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