diy solar

diy solar

Devastating fire

In case anyone interested.
Latest communication from my insurance company investigator.
"I have sent Mr. Boone pictures that I took of the scene. Mr. Boone is an adjuster hired by Chubb Insurance who represents Bluetti. I will keep you updated on any response. But you could send him an email with an estimate to replace that structure and what you have it insured for as I do not have that estimate."
 
email from my insurance, Farm Bureau, just received.

From my insurance:
Here is the email I received back from Mike Boone in regards to the picture I sent him. It sounds like they are going to send someone out there, again I will be there with them.

From Bluetti/Chubb insurance.
Thank you Carla for sending the photos. I have contact US Forensic to see about appointing an origin & cause expert to look at the scene. Please make sure that the homeowner does nothing to disturb it until we get someone out there.
 
Your own early estimate of cost to replace will likely be low. So make sure you get it right/conservative and documented before responding.
You could get a bid from a (premium) contractor, include all required upgrades to comply with code, all building inspection and permit fees.
Insurance companies are quite adept at their game, both in settlements and in payments to service providers.
There may be an intimidation/shakedown step as well. They are quite aware of what some clients try to pull off, so have to ensure they don't get taken. Honest customers will also be viewed with suspicion by them.
 
Your own early estimate of cost to replace will likely be low. So make sure you get it right/conservative and documented before responding.
You could get a bid from a (premium) contractor, include all required upgrades to comply with code, all building inspection and permit fees.
Insurance companies are quite adept at their game, both in settlements and in payments to service providers.
There may be an intimidation/shakedown step as well. They are quite aware of what some clients try to pull off, so have to ensure they don't get taken. Honest customers will also be viewed with suspicion by them.
This is very good advice. I had a tornado do some devastating damage to our house and the insurance company asked me to make a list of items loss. I did that and came up to something like $25k as we were doing the work ourself. Thankfully, the adjuster was smarter than me and he ripped up my list and reminded me that I pay for “replacement insurance”, meaning every single item replaced with new. Long story short; claim went from $25k to $51k. Huge diff
 
LiPo battery, that went wrong. Not a question of if ... but when it will burn

While I do agree that old school LiPo tech is a bit volatile, it is not a sure thing to burn. Something has to go wrong. I have some 15 year old LiPo batteries that I got long before LiPo was popular for RC hobby. I was the first to run them at my local RC car track, and they freaked people out, no one wanted to be near them. Whenever I ran, they kept 5 gallon buckets of sand around the track. Well, I still have those packs, and over a dozen more I have bought over the years. I have never has a single LiPo cell catch fire without being physically damaged. And even 2 packs that got split open and were leaking never caught on fire. I had cells swell up, some lost capacity, and others lost current output, and a few get very hot while running or charging, but not one burned.

I intentionally drove a nail through a fully charged but weak cell, and it did flair up, make a lot of nasty smoke, and a small flame became visible. That was only a single 5 amp hour cell, so yes, I can imaging a large pack being able to make quite a fire and a lot of heat, but again, something needs to go seriously wrong. Over charging is the most common cause of cells bursting and burning. And if there are flaws in the separator, then an overcharge is lighting the fuse. This is why GM reduced the maximum charge to 90%. That greatly reduces the internal stress on the cells. Very high capacity cells tend to use a thinner separator so they can stuff in more layers to get more watt hours. Both Sony and Samsung had problems when they released new higher capacity cells for laptops and phones, and now it looks like LG suffered this fate as well with the new gen EV cells. In a car, they are subjected to a very harsh use case. Not only do they see very high current charge and discharge rates, they also get shook around, bounced, and subjected to severe heating and cooling.

Many people (including me) are using repurposed EV batteries for solar energy storage. I have 36 KWHs of LG Chevy Bolt cells in my garage. My cells are from 2019 and 2020, Gen 2.1 and 2.2 versions. I am taking some precautions. They are all inside of steel cabinets. They can be quickly unplugged and rolled out of the garage. They are n a concrete floor, and the wall behind them has a layer of cement board over drywall. But the cells just sit there. I am not charging them at only 3 to 5 amps per cell, they are rated at 60 amps by LG. And in discharge, they max out at less than 12 amps per cell compared to the LG rating of 180 amps per cell. I am not worried about them at all. But I still treat them with care and monitor them constantly. If they ever do start to get warm at all, they will be rolled out and carefully inspected. With my low currents, the cells run as cold as the concrete slab of my garage. I will get an alarm if any cell ever gets to 60 C.

So why did the Bluetti catch fire?
That is a very good question. My first guess is that the solar charge controller failed and the cells went over voltage. But with that much damage, that may be impossible to ever prove. My inverter charger stores the battery voltage and current graphs so I can look back at what is going on. No such luck on the little Bluetti. With the solar panels plugged in, but no loads, that does leave a potential for a bad situation. A good solar charge controller should have no problem dropping it's output to zero, as long as the solar panel open circuit voltage does not go too high, but even a small leakage current with no load on the system can lead to voltage creep. When LiPo cells are stored and not being used, the basic rule is to run them down to 50% charge so that any potential voltage creep should never hit too high or too low of a voltage. My second bank of Chevy Bolt cells were very close to fully charged when I got them, and it did keep me pretty nervous until I was finally able to wire them up and pull some current to bring them down a bit. The whole time they were not connected, I would check the voltages from time to time, and those cells didn't drop off at all. I kept them out on my back porch on a concrete slab. All of these small power bank units are all in a race to give the most capacity. This has led to them charging the cells right to the top to be able to show that maximum capacity. Now that my cells are in service, I will not be pushing them past about 85% full ever again.

I sure hope they do find the true cause of this, and that if it is a design issue on the Bluetti, I hope it is properly fixed and the old units are recalled and updated or replaced. I also hope they use their own insurance to help out the original poster to get his cabin rebuilt. The design of the unit should eliminate the possibility for the user to cause anything like this to happen. It should have internal protection so even too much solar, or an improper load should just cause a shut down, not a fire, ever.
 
While I do agree that old school LiPo tech is a bit volatile, it is not a sure thing to burn. Something has to go wrong. I have some 15 year old LiPo batteries that I got long before LiPo was popular for RC hobby. I was the first to run them at my local RC car track, and they freaked people out, no one wanted to be near them. Whenever I ran, they kept 5 gallon buckets of sand around the track. Well, I still have those packs, and over a dozen more I have bought over the years. I have never has a single LiPo cell catch fire without being physically damaged. And even 2 packs that got split open and were leaking never caught on fire. I had cells swell up, some lost capacity, and others lost current output, and a few get very hot while running or charging, but not one burned.

I intentionally drove a nail through a fully charged but weak cell, and it did flair up, make a lot of nasty smoke, and a small flame became visible. That was only a single 5 amp hour cell, so yes, I can imaging a large pack being able to make quite a fire and a lot of heat, but again, something needs to go seriously wrong. Over charging is the most common cause of cells bursting and burning. And if there are flaws in the separator, then an overcharge is lighting the fuse. This is why GM reduced the maximum charge to 90%. That greatly reduces the internal stress on the cells. Very high capacity cells tend to use a thinner separator so they can stuff in more layers to get more watt hours. Both Sony and Samsung had problems when they released new higher capacity cells for laptops and phones, and now it looks like LG suffered this fate as well with the new gen EV cells. In a car, they are subjected to a very harsh use case. Not only do they see very high current charge and discharge rates, they also get shook around, bounced, and subjected to severe heating and cooling.

Many people (including me) are using repurposed EV batteries for solar energy storage. I have 36 KWHs of LG Chevy Bolt cells in my garage. My cells are from 2019 and 2020, Gen 2.1 and 2.2 versions. I am taking some precautions. They are all inside of steel cabinets. They can be quickly unplugged and rolled out of the garage. They are n a concrete floor, and the wall behind them has a layer of cement board over drywall. But the cells just sit there. I am not charging them at only 3 to 5 amps per cell, they are rated at 60 amps by LG. And in discharge, they max out at less than 12 amps per cell compared to the LG rating of 180 amps per cell. I am not worried about them at all. But I still treat them with care and monitor them constantly. If they ever do start to get warm at all, they will be rolled out and carefully inspected. With my low currents, the cells run as cold as the concrete slab of my garage. I will get an alarm if any cell ever gets to 60 C.

So why did the Bluetti catch fire?
That is a very good question. My first guess is that the solar charge controller failed and the cells went over voltage. But with that much damage, that may be impossible to ever prove. My inverter charger stores the battery voltage and current graphs so I can look back at what is going on. No such luck on the little Bluetti. With the solar panels plugged in, but no loads, that does leave a potential for a bad situation. A good solar charge controller should have no problem dropping it's output to zero, as long as the solar panel open circuit voltage does not go too high, but even a small leakage current with no load on the system can lead to voltage creep. When LiPo cells are stored and not being used, the basic rule is to run them down to 50% charge so that any potential voltage creep should never hit too high or too low of a voltage. My second bank of Chevy Bolt cells were very close to fully charged when I got them, and it did keep me pretty nervous until I was finally able to wire them up and pull some current to bring them down a bit. The whole time they were not connected, I would check the voltages from time to time, and those cells didn't drop off at all. I kept them out on my back porch on a concrete slab. All of these small power bank units are all in a race to give the most capacity. This has led to them charging the cells right to the top to be able to show that maximum capacity. Now that my cells are in service, I will not be pushing them past about 85% full ever again.

I sure hope they do find the true cause of this, and that if it is a design issue on the Bluetti, I hope it is properly fixed and the old units are recalled and updated or replaced. I also hope they use their own insurance to help out the original poster to get his cabin rebuilt. The design of the unit should eliminate the possibility for the user to cause anything like this to happen. It should have internal protection so even too much solar, or an improper load should just cause a shut down, not a fire, ever.
Something inevitably goes wrong though.

As he said, it's a matter of when, not if. Small capacity packs like you've got experience with are less likely to fail in such a big way simply because there's vastly less energy there to be dealt with.


All of takes is one critical component to fail and the whole place burns down. You can add in redundancy, but even that requires regular inspection and function tests. Something the vast majority of homeowners rarely do.

I believe that's why newer NEC specs put the systems away from the main dwelling in its own enclosure/shed.
 
You could get a bid from a (premium) contractor, include all required upgrades to comply with code, all building inspection and permit fees.
Insurance companies are quite adept at their game, both in settlements and in payments to service providers.
There may be an intimidation/shakedown step as well.
This is the best advice on this. Negotiations are a game; games have winners and losers.
Go in like a winner! In law, stuff that doesn’t make it to court get settled 99.44% of the time in favor of the most prepared.
Make sure your insurance company is aware that Bluetti is "Sending a guy". They may want to have their own person present at that time.

I am not a lawyer. I do know some things and have ‘handled’ several things in court on my own behalf…and prevailed. Nevertheless, I am not a lawyer.

Have a lawyer present to keep everyone ’honest.” If you can hire a young criminal investigative-type lawyer with some liability experience he/they/she (remember how much easier it was when “he” wasn’t gender specific in a sentence?) will keep you out of verbal tricks and potentially shorten your payout time. Which is important. Don’t ‘retain’ him for the case, pay him for the time- you probably want a much more experienced guy/gal if you actually need a lawyer later.
 
Bluetti hired US Forensic to investigate cause of fire. My insurance covers about 1/4 of loss. I have not received any payment from my insurance to date(Farm Bureau). Multiple email saying check is on the way. I want insurance check in bank before proceeding. Can this US Forensic person hurt my claim?
Thank you all for great support & advice.
 
I do a lot of Insurance work , the adjusters are usually very fair , I’ve had them give me more then I ask most of the time
No one wants to spend a lot of money in court .
 
Damn that's horrible, sorry for the loss, that looked like a big cabin too.

What would be the best way to protect from something like this? Would having everything inside a metal cabinet and have fire retardant putty inside be enough? I will be building an off grid cabin soon and since I won't be living there full time for a while (it's an hour away from town so will need a source of income that is remote) I will not be around to act if something goes wrong.

I imagine dealing with insurance with stuff like this can be hard especially since it tends to involve DIY work and possibly devices that are not UL approved. (Ex: like practically anything you buy on Amazon).

I kind of want to look into setting up a fire sprinkler system when I build my cabin, but not sure where an individual would actually buy that sort of stuff.
 
I think the safest for lithium would be a Battery Bunker remote from the home. Something similar to an ammo dump:


There are UL listed lithium battery energy storage systems, but they still have the chance to burn the house down.

Alternatively, lead-acid. That is what I use (AGM) for my backup system, but then I don't need high cycle life.
Some people use Rolls Surrette FLA and report decades of lifespan. Having several days worth of storage means cycling is usually shallow.
Lead-acid does have advantages in being able to recharge as well as charge even in extreme cold.

What I don't think is available yet is a locker for lithium batteries that has been tested and shown to contain fire from batteries without it spreading. Tesla did work on their battery pack design to make it almost completely safe, although severe mechanical damage can still make it go up.
 
Surrette batteries are also made in Canada which is nice. Not a lot of stuff made here these days. Probably what I will go with when I build my cabin. I just bought 4 Canadian Tire golf cart batteries for my shed setup, so I'll see how those work out since they are a great value. Though Surrette is actually pretty decent too in terms of value especially considering they're made here.
 
There are UL listed lithium battery energy storage systems, but they still have the chance to burn the house down.

Alternatively, lead-acid. That is what I use (AGM) for my backup system, but then I don't need high cycle life.
Some people use Rolls Surrette FLA and report decades of lifespan. Having several days worth of storage means cycling is usually shallow.
Lead-acid does have advantages in being able to recharge as well as charge even in extreme cold.

Did you saw a Lead battery explosion ?
Even the small ones (single battery explosions) are scary enough with the big bang and spraying acid all around.
But the big ones (where hydrogen accumulates in a closed space) ... man, that brings down thick brick walls.
 
It's better for BLuetti to pay your claim than to face a court battle that would bring serious bad press.
who said bluetti was paying a claim? insurance paid 1/4 and is probably gonna go after bluetti to recoup. OP could potentially sue bluetti for the other 75% her insurance didnt cover, if bluetti inspection doesnt find anything that absolves bluetti of liability.
 
Did you saw a Lead battery explosion ?
Even the small ones (single battery explosions) are scary enough with the big bang and spraying acid all around.
But the big ones (where hydrogen accumulates in a closed space) ... man, that brings down thick brick walls.

Haven't seen one, but know it can happen.
Hydrogen is explosive in air from 10% to 90% concentration.
I think the key safety precautions are:

1) Vent the area to prevent accumulation of hydrogen.
2) Don't make/break electrical contact in vicinity of battery, at least not one that has been charging heavily and outgassing.
3) Fuse properly so shorts don't cause wires to start a fire.
4) Don't use a cigarette lighter for illumination when working around batteries (based on incidents in report below.)


 
Haven't seen one, but know it can happen.
Hydrogen is explosive in air from 10% to 90% concentration.
I think the key safety precautions are:

1) Vent the area to prevent accumulation of hydrogen.
2) Don't make/break electrical contact in vicinity of battery, at least not one that has been charging heavily and outgassing.
3) Fuse properly so shorts don't cause wires to start a fire.
4) Don't use a cigarette lighter for illumination when working around batteries (based on incidents in report below.)



Here we have strong regulations for lead battery rooms and charging stations (like for forklift batteries).
- good natural or electric vent (from 4% concentration hydrogen-air mixture is explosive)
- windows only with steel forced glass in it (when gas explodes glass shrapnels could harm or kill nearby people)
- single floor building
- the roof cannot be hold down (no screws to hold down roof on the brick walls, so let if lift up in an explosion ... because if not then the explosion will blow out the walls)
 
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