DEYE Inverter UL Listed available in US

rickypr

New Member
@rickypr - See the following forum post.

https://powerforum.co.za/topic/8451-sunsynk-inverter-monitoring/

I believe this has been figured out with the close relatives of Sol-Ark. There is a post on that site talking about how they applied the steps for Sunsynk to a DEYE version and it worked fine. I personally have not dug into the steps to confirm on my Sol-Ark 12k but my confidence is high that this should work for Sol-Ark versions.
Very good information, thank you!
 

rhino

Solar Addict
Open their communication protocol so we can query their device (either using RS485 or through their WiFi dongle).
Is there a valid reason why they would not do this? They are obviously sending the data over the internet to their own servers and processing it, why won't they document how to get this data locally?
 

rickypr

New Member
Is there a valid reason why they would not do this? They are obviously sending the data over the internet to their own servers and processing it, why won't they document how to get this data locally?
My best guess is that they are concerned about customers connecting something incorrectly and damaging their unit when using the RS485 or CANBUS ports. The user guide has a warning saying "Use the information below at your own risk, any damage cause by the improper use of the communications protocols will not be cover by warranty". They could allow you to retrieve information using the Wi-Fi/Ethernet dongle using a RESTful service or MODBUS TCP but that would cost them money for development.
 

Roqm

Solar Enthusiast
My best guess is that they are concerned about customers connecting something incorrectly and damaging their unit when using the RS485 or CANBUS ports. The user guide has a warning saying "Use the information below at your own risk, any damage cause by the improper use of the communications protocols will not be cover by warranty". They could allow you to retrieve information using the Wi-Fi/Ethernet dongle using a RESTful service or MODBUS TCP but that would cost them money for development.
And they would lose the analytics from many machines if you could monitor locally...
 

Haugen

Tron God
Is there a valid reason why they would not do this? They are obviously sending the data over the internet to their own servers and processing it, why won't they document how to get this data locally?
My money is on security as the main reason.
When a port is opened for communication, there is now a risk of malware or other intrusions coming in that way.
I know that after I set up my WiFi dongle, my phone kept connecting to that every time I came home because it is closer to the door than my router. You don't want someone parking in front of your house hacking into your inverter.
If SolArk is giving warnings about it when communication is limited, just think how much of a mess a hacker could make.
 

Ted Katsouras

New Member
My money is on security as the main reason.
When a port is opened for communication, there is now a risk of malware or other intrusions coming in that way.
I know that after I set up my WiFi dongle, my phone kept connecting to that every time I came home because it is closer to the door than my router. You don't want someone parking in front of your house hacking into your inverter.
If SolArk is giving warnings about it when communication is limited, just think how much of a mess a hacker could make.
I have the same issue with the WiFi dongle with devices try to connect to it like weather station etc, Sol-Ark now offers an Ethernet modules that simplifies things. As far as data I like to capture the data locally with higher sample rate in seconds not 5 minutes as the current setup, I can see better what is happening with electrical systems at home for example if the water well pump tries 3 times in order to start then you see that there is a problem before you run out of water. I guess you can buy a device for $200-300 with current sensors that does that. Several lower cost off-Grid inverters offer data with higher sampling rate I wish Sol-Ark can match that, as far as security use the Ethernet dongle with a decent fire wall.
 

rhino

Solar Addict
They should follow what Victron is doing. Multiple ways of accessing the data and open sourcing a lot of it. Midnite solar also has detailed documentation on protocol to talk to their charge controllers and make configuration changes as well. Furthermore simply providing read only access to data should not present an issue. That is what Sol-Ark is doing already by sending it over the internet now so still is not clear to me why they wouldn't want to document how to access that data unless there is some thought of charging to access that data in the future. Just seems like a significant feature miss especially when their current offering has unacceptably long time between data updates.
 

the_colorist

"Move over... let me fix it"
With regards to a BMS, Deye/SOL-ARK/SunSynk actually supports a few protocols but the main one is the Pylontech protocol. And that is technically a modified version of a protocol under NDA used by Victron/SMA etc. If you want to talk to a Deye/SOL-ARK/SunSynk, attached here is the protocol.
 

Attachments

  • CAN-Bus-protocol-PYLON-low-voltage-V1.2-20180408.pdf
    250.4 KB · Views: 43

the_colorist

"Move over... let me fix it"
I decided to go ahead and post this. This is the "official" protocol used by most of your high-end inverters/systems on the market. I would say that as long as you have at least 0x351, 0x355, and 0x356, you can talk with a lot of inverters on the market. Schnieder with their Gateway/Insight. Victron/SMA. The list goes on.

1622693700446.png
 

Haugen

Tron God
I have the same issue with the WiFi dongle with devices try to connect to it like weather station etc, Sol-Ark now offers an Ethernet modules that simplifies things. As far as data I like to capture the data locally with higher sample rate in seconds not 5 minutes as the current setup, I can see better what is happening with electrical systems at home for example if the water well pump tries 3 times in order to start then you see that there is a problem before you run out of water. I guess you can buy a device for $200-300 with current sensors that does that. Several lower cost off-Grid inverters offer data with higher sampling rate I wish Sol-Ark can match that, as far as security use the Ethernet dongle with a decent fire wall.
I ended up just telling my phone to forget the password.
There are not a lot of computing resources inside the box. An external Wi-Fi dongle ports CAN bus data to a website.
Have you watched any of the videos where people hack the CAN bus in a vehicle and start tinkering? If automakers haven't been able to add a firewall to the communication bus they developed and all depend upon for modern vehicles to operate, how can we expect a single inverter company to be able to implement security?
Let's be realistic about this.
 

UncleJimmy

Head for the hills.
I ended up just telling my phone to forget the password.
There are not a lot of computing resources inside the box. An external Wi-Fi dongle ports CAN bus data to a website.
Have you watched any of the videos where people hack the CAN bus in a vehicle and start tinkering? If automakers haven't been able to add a firewall to the communication bus they developed and all depend upon for modern vehicles to operate, how can we expect a single inverter company to be able to implement security?
Let's be realistic about this.
One of my main concerns with these networks/Wi-fi etc. is security in a grid-down scenario through scanning for networks with a cell phone etc. (in order to locate and plunder scarce resources).

Do you feel this is an issue? What about the accusations of the unit being bricked remotely? Do the SMA units operate this way as well?

As a prospective buyer of the Sol Ark, are there any ways to disable the network and just turn it on manually for updates etc? I realize that would mean monitoring from the panel only.
 
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robby

Solar Enthusiast
One of my main concerns with these networks/Wi-fi etc. is security in a grid-down scenario through scanning for networks with a cell phone etc. (in order to locate and plunder scarce resources).

Do you feel this is an issue? What about the accusations of the unit being bricked remotely? Do the SMA units operate this way as well?

As a prospective buyer of the Sol Ark, are there any ways to disable the network and just turn it on manually for updates etc? I realize that would mean monitoring from the panel only.
Yes just pull out the WiFi dongle after you have commisioned and updated the system.
 

UncleJimmy

Head for the hills.
Yes just pull out the WiFi dongle after you have commisioned and updated the system.
Have you tested this? Will the system function for days/weeks/months off-line? We don't know what limitations the software has. Just like Tesla only allows two days off-line before it shuts down the whole system. I need to be sure.

Also, some are questioning if this could void warranty if system is being monitored by Sol-Ark:

 
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solar8484

Solar Enthusiast
Have you tested this? Will the system function for days/weeks/months off-line? We don't know what limitations the software has. Just like Tesla only allows two days off-line before it shuts down the whole system. I need to be sure.

Also, some are questioning if this could void warranty if system is being monitored by Sol-Ark:


Tesla Powerwalll maybe similar in the sense that it can't start up with drained batteries even if there is solar. However, Tesla is probably different in that it won't allow charging drained batteries from a generator. I don't think Sol-Ark or any other hybrid inverters have such restriction.
 

UncleJimmy

Head for the hills.
Tesla Powerwalll maybe similar in the sense that it can't start up with drained batteries even if there is solar. However, Tesla is probably different in that it won't allow charging drained batteries from a generator. I don't think Sol-Ark or any other hybrid inverters have such restriction.
With regard to Tesla, I am only talking about (from my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong), is the requirement for internet connection in order for the system to function. They will shut down the system without internet connection if down for 2+ days.

I am not really interested in the Tesla, just the SMA/Sol-Ark and the pros/cons discussed in this thread as well as trying to determine the vulnerabilities of each. There was an assertion that the Sol-Ark monitoring servers are located in China. There was also discussion that Sol-Ark limits open source data collection for security (hacking) reasons. I am trying to wade through this info and discover what is true, what are the vulnerabilities and does SMA (the other inverter I'm considering) have any similar vulnerabilities and/or requirements with regard to internet connection, monitoring, warranty etc.
 

solar8484

Solar Enthusiast
With regard to Tesla, I am only talking about (from my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong), is the requirement for internet connection in order for the system to function. They will shut down the system without internet connection if down for 2+ days.

I am not really interested in the Tesla, just the SMA/Sol-Ark and the pros/cons discussed in this thread as well as trying to determine the vulnerabilities of each. There was an assertion that the Sol-Ark monitoring servers are located in China. There was also discussion that Sol-Ark limits open source data collection for security (hacking) reasons. I am trying to wade through this info and discover what is true, what are the vulnerabilities and does SMA (the other inverter I'm considering) have any similar vulnerabilities and/or requirements with regard to internet connection, monitoring, warranty etc.

Have you asked Sol-Ark or SMA? One thing potentially confusing for hybrid inverters (e.g. Sol-Ark) that can be used in grid-tied mode is that they may be required by UL 1741 SA to have Internet connection when working in grid-tied mode. Hard to imagine Sol-Ark not working without Internet connection in off-grid mode as they specifically target the prepper community.
 

Hedges

I See Electromagnetic Fields!
With regard to Tesla, I am only talking about (from my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong), is the requirement for internet connection in order for the system to function. They will shut down the system without internet connection if down for 2+ days.

I would hate to have a battery-backed PV system for operation during utility failures, that couldn't operate during utility failures. I hope that only applies to on-grid not off-grid, but who knows?

Have you asked Sol-Ark or SMA? One thing potentially confusing for hybrid inverters (e.g. Sol-Ark) that can be used in grid-tied mode is that they may be required by UL 1741 SA to have Internet connection when working in grid-tied mode. Hard to imagine Sol-Ark not working without Internet connection in off-grid mode as they specifically target the prepper community.

At least initial UL 1741 SA just requires 299 second ride-through/300 second disconnect for minor voltage/frequency excursions. Or alternative frequency-watts or voltage-watts power reduction (if approved by utility.) Not sure if any future UL xxx will require connectivity. SMA features ability to interact with spot markets for power.

The SMA PV inverters have on-grid and off-grid modes. Mine (older model) switch based on RS-485 communication from Sunny Island. Their Sunny Boy Storage (high voltage battery and peak shaving) system also work on and off grid, and the newer PV inverters communicate by Speedwire (ethernet).

But I find it difficult to find in SMA documentation what the hardware system configuration is and the theory of operation. These features only seem to be mentioned as prose in documentation for System Manager or some such. Used to be they provided block diagrams, schematics, described operation in detail.

As you say, "when working in grid-tied mode." One would hope switching to off-grid is supported.
 

solar8484

Solar Enthusiast
At least initial UL 1741 SA just requires 299 second ride-through/300 second disconnect for minor voltage/frequency excursions. Or alternative frequency-watts or voltage-watts power reduction (if approved by utility.) Not sure if any future UL xxx will require connectivity. SMA features ability to interact with spot markets for power.

POCO's in California require grid-tied inverters installed after mid-2020 to have communications capability for smart inverter functions (e.g. set active power output).
 

robby

Solar Enthusiast
Have you tested this? Will the system function for days/weeks/months off-line? We don't know what limitations the software has. Just like Tesla only allows two days off-line before it shuts down the whole system. I need to be sure.

Also, some are questioning if this could void warranty if system is being monitored by Sol-Ark:

Nope never tested it but since Sol-Ark states that they "know that not everyone has an Internet connection" and therefore they offer a $100 Dongle that has Built in firmware updates it makes sense that it is designd to be installed with no Internet Available. From what one guy told me, you do not even need it for commissioning.
Here is a video where the guy is updating the system offline and is using only his local network.
 

UncleJimmy

Head for the hills.
Nope never tested it but since Sol-Ark states that they "know that not everyone has an Internet connection" and therefore they offer a $100 Dongle that has Built in firmware updates it makes sense that it is designd to be installed with no Internet Available. From what one guy told me, you do not even need it for commissioning.
Here is a video where the guy is updating the system offline and is using only his local network.

You are correct. I did reach out to the Sol-Ark team and they did mention the dongle for off grid use for $100 and that not having the internet connected will not void the warranty. They did confirm Wi-fi can be disabled by removing the Wi-fi dongle. That is very good news. Wi-fi and networks are a potential security issue for me.

After getting this confirmation, I am much more inclined to choose the Sol Ark than after I read some of the negative assertions about Sol-Ark in this thread. It seems like some of the security issues have been addressed, I don't see any reliability issues so far as they seem to have a good reputation thus far from the solar community, and even the issue about continuous output ratings seems to have been addressed (that they likely will produce 9k continuous under very specific circumstances) just know more like 7-8k real world.

As far as choosing Sol Ark over Dye, I would personally have an ethical issue of knowingly purchasing something that is in violation of trade agreements and using someone else's intellectual property, especially since the parties involved are an American company vs a Communist one. In addition, there are other factors such as the added warranty, support, additional breakers/features as well as the optional EMP protection. Finally, when building a total system that may cost $15-$30k does saving a few grand on inverters make a big difference? Perhaps for some, but factoring in the IRS rebates, I don't think it's worth it financially.

I just wanted to address a few other assertions regarding EMP protection. Some say the EMP doesn't do anything or that it only protects 120v circuits etc. Sol Ark clarified for me that the EMP is MILSPEC tested and they also offer EMP panels and they do protect 240v. This is a value to me since every so often we have severe lighting storms that take out key appliances.


SMA would be my second choice but there is more cost.
 
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