DEYE Inverter UL Listed available in US

[robby]

I would not personally buy either of these inverters. This will be a bit snarky, but I have a point: Inverters are not sold by what features they have or how much energy they can handle.. they are sold by weight... period.. end of story.

Weight is only a factor up until a point. You cannot compare the weight of a low freq inverter with a transformer less high freq inverter. If you want to seperate out the two catagories then weight has some bearing but it's certainly not the biggest factor. I like the idea of passive cooling and that it where the weight in a high freq inverter comes from. On the other hand Fans can work really well and most units can detect Fan issues and throttle back and alert you. Fans are also cheap and easy to keep spares in your supply drawer.

The reigning undisputed king of inverters are the SMA Sunny Island units. For 120 volts at 6000 watts, the unit weighs 139 lbs.. for just one of them. You need two of them (278 lbs) to make a 120/240 split phase system at 12kW.

That said, you can make a single unit produce 6kW at 120/240 with a transformer.. at 139 lbs.

The Outback Radian 8048 (8kW unit), in my opinion and many others, would be the next best unit on the market, and it weighs 125 lbs.

I own two Sunny Island units and a Radian as well.

After these two models, the quality goes down hill.. and when I see 6000 to 8000 watt inverters being sold and they only weight 70 lbs and are packed with all kinds of fancy features, I tend to run away..

I think the difference between 70 and 130+ pounds is how much abuse the unit can take and if it will still be running in ten or fifteen years.

You can buy a brand new SMA Sunny Island (with 10yr warranty) on ebay today for $2500..

That's just my opinion.

That might be a valid point if it was not for the fact that those "Fancy" features are very useful and make the unit much more efficient without user intervention. Also nobody seems to be having an issue with their 70lb units so it seems your getting reliability and fancy features.

I had the Money to go SMA or Sol-Ark but at the end of the day a full micro grid SMA system was more expensive and a lot more bulky than the Sol-Ark and I just could not see any real advantage to justify the cost.
I will admit that SMA is probably the best Inverter but they do not have an all in one solution to go against against the current crop of Hybrid models. Also SMA tech support is absolutely terrible.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I will admit that SMA is probably the best Inverter but they do not have an all in one solution to go against against the current crop of Hybrid models. Also SMA tech support is absolutely terrible.

No, there is no all in one solution available from SMA, and their user interfaces suck eggs too.

Its like some cosmic joke in the solar industry.. the better the user interface, the crappier the inverter is. SMA built the finest battery inverter on the planet, charge almost $6,000 for it, and equipped it with a two line dot matrix display you have to squint one eye to read...

The Sunny Islands have no computer hookup, no wifi, no ethernet (not really), no blue tooth.. and no options to hook any of these up. There is no way to remotely monitor them at all.. You can't even install an IP Camera and point it at the dot matrix display because the darn thing goes dark if you don't press a button every now and then.

That said, when I'm on battery power and my air conditioning kicks in, the lights in my house don't even flicker.. and I've drawn 6kW steady from them for hours on end and they don't even get warm..

One other major advantage, the Sunny Islands are also the kings of low power draw.. and that's a big one. 25 watts idling is the lowest on the market so far as I know. People don't realize how much energy that idle power uses when factored in over a 24hr period. Some of these inverters suck up 100+ watts of juice just sitting there doing nothing, and that translates to a wopping 2.4kWh of energy in a single day.

I guess we can't have everything.

PS.. We thought we had a problem with our SMA Sunny Boy grid tied inverters.. an issue with the Secure Power Supply activation. As it turns out, it was just a minor omission in the installation instructions and technical specs.. the inverters were fine.. My point is that when I called SMA, I found their tech support to be excellent.. it wasn't the personalized type of support a lot of folks like (not sure what I'm trying to say there), but the tech support got my issue straightened out right away without hassle.

 

[Sanwizard]

No, there is no all in one solution available from SMA, and their user interfaces suck eggs too.

Its like some cosmic joke in the solar industry.. the better the user interface, the crappier the inverter is. SMA built the finest battery inverter on the planet, charge almost $6,000 for it, and equipped it with a two line dot matrix display you have to squint one eye to read...

The Sunny Islands have no computer hookup, no wifi, no ethernet (not really), no blue tooth.. and no options to hook any of these up. There is no way to remotely monitor them at all.. You can't even install an IP Camera and point it at the dot matrix display because the darn thing goes dark if you don't press a button every now and then.

That said, when I'm on battery power and my air conditioning kicks in, the lights in my house don't even flicker.. and I've drawn 6kW steady from them for hours on end and they don't even get warm..

One other major advantage, the Sunny Islands are also the kings of low power draw.. and that's a big one. 25 watts idling is the lowest on the market so far as I know. People don't realize how much energy that idle power uses when factored in over a 24hr period. Some of these inverters suck up 100+ watts of juice just sitting there doing nothing, and that translates to a wopping 2.4kWh of energy in a single day.

I guess we can't have everything.

PS.. We thought we had a problem with our SMA Sunny Boy grid tied inverters.. an issue with the Secure Power Supply activation. As it turns out, it was just a minor omission in the installation instructions and technical specs.. the inverters were fine.. My point is that when I called SMA, I found their tech support to be excellent.. it wasn't the personalized type of support a lot of folks like (not sure what I'm trying to say there), but the tech support got my issue straightened out right away without hassle.

This reply is now giving me pause. I was all set to pull the trigger on the new IP65 version of the MPP inverters to replace my 13 year old SunnyBoys, as my current LV6548's are working flawlessly, provide 13KW of power, and only suck up 63w idle each. They work very well with my DIY batteries, and the price is excellent.
I was looking at Deye, but you sort of have to sneak them in country vs Sol-Ark, and they have issues in parallel over 4KW draw.
So that leaves MPP and SMA. It seems to me SMA is far more complex than MPP, as well as over twice as expensive. I have seen MPP long term tests up to around 3 years, but nothing like my SMA's at 13 years and still going.

Do you guys think its worth the complexity, lack of monitoring, higher costs, and need for multiple devices( SB and SI) to just swap out my SMA's with newer models, and then buy minimum two Sunny Islands for 240V? Do they work well with our DIY Lishen, CATL, Heltec BMS batteries?

The days of cheap Sunny Islands are over. I figure two sunny boys, and two sunny islands would cost around 10K, not including comms and monitoring. Two MPP's would be about 4K tops.

Can Sunny Islands run stand alone without sunny boys? I just dont know that solution as well.

 

[the_colorist]

Here are some thoughts if it helps:

SMA is multi component by design. I suggest reading a little about OptiCool. Physical and thermal limitations to how many boards one can fit and properly cool within a chassis and make them last. SMA's reputation is on the line and they have no need to change although I suspect at some point they might for small systems. Heat is is one of my few complaints about hybrids and SOL-ARK inverters in general. One of those under full load you can fry eggs on, assuming you laid it flat. Personally I think Deye knows this, hence 5 years. IMHO SOL-ARK is just hopeful but time will tell. Not intending to bash SOL-ARK at all, just my opinion. And likely one of many reasons they charge so much for them (warranty among other things).

Load out an SMA in the same conditions and see how warm it gets in comparison....

SMA inverters all have networking and cutting edge monitoring. RS485 from the SI6048's to a Data Manager M provides complete read out and parameter control. RS485 or Speedwire (Ethernet) via internal piggyback on pretty much any Sunny Boy operational. Even the old first-gen SB's. The backwards compatibility from SMA and the lifespan usability of the inverters is unmatched. I would never have a client remove existing operational SB's. There is no purpose unless they needed to upgrade to higher wattage units in the same physical space. I would (and do) deploy old first gen SB's on new installs any day of week. Even used ones. They work fine. Existing panel upgrades to higher wattage modules? Sure, that I would do the any day since the roof space typically doesn't grow.

then buy minimum two Sunny Islands for 240V

For future readers, this is only required if needing over 6KW from the batteries at any given time. A single SI with an AT is fine. That is why they made the Smartformer which Midnite now produces. I wouldn't personally use it though, I would use the Victron 100A AT.

Do they work well with our DIY Lishen, CATL, Heltec BMS batteries?

SMA requires Lithium batteries to use a BMS with communication. Some do put the SI in AGM mode but there are fundamental issues with that that typically will creep up over time. That's outside of the scope of this post though. My recommendation is the Orion JR 2 for a DIY BMS.

Can Sunny Islands run stand alone without sunny boys? I just dont know that solution as well.

SI's are bi-directional AC <-> battery inverters. Nothing more. So they can run independently without issue but their use is limited to grid backup or buy/sell TOU with the Data Manager M.

and they have issues in parallel over 4KW draw.

I'm going to test this at length then I get time. We have a few parallel systems going in and larger micro grids we are speccing. If there are issues, I suspect the installation practices. I don't believe there are issues here on the hardware level. We will see as I do further testing. Besides that, when connected to the grid in a grid-zero configuration, the supply transformer provides load balancing between the legs... If that isn't happening, there is another issue.

@Sanwizard If I may suggest it, you could for example just drop in 1x or 2x SI6048's with a Data Manager M (and the appropriate piggyback cards) with your existing Sunny Boys and achieve pretty much anything a SOL-ARK will give you regarding Zero-Export or grid-backup etc. Then after that decide if upgrading the existing units is prudent based on performance or other metrics.

 

[Sanwizard]

Here are some thoughts if it helps:

SMA is multi component by design. I suggest reading a little about OptiCool. Physical and thermal limitations to how many boards one can fit and properly cool within a chassis and make them last. SMA's reputation is on the line and they have no need to change although I suspect at some point they might for small systems. Heat is is one of my few complaints about hybrids and SOL-ARK inverters in general. One of those under full load you can fry eggs on, assuming you laid it flat. Personally I think Deye knows this, hence 5 years. IMHO SOL-ARK is just hopeful but time will tell. Not intending to bash SOL-ARK at all, just my opinion. And likely one of many reasons they charge so much for them (warranty among other things).

Load out an SMA in the same conditions and see how warm it gets in comparison....

SMA inverters all have networking and cutting edge monitoring. RS485 from the SI6048's to a Data Manager M provides complete read out and parameter control. RS485 or Speedwire (Ethernet) via internal piggyback on pretty much any Sunny Boy operational. Even the old first-gen SB's. The backwards compatibility from SMA and the lifespan usability of the inverters is unmatched. I would never have a client remove existing operational SB's. There is no purpose unless they needed to upgrade to higher wattage units in the same physical space. I would (and do) deploy old first gen SB's on new installs any day of week. Even used ones. They work fine. Existing panel upgrades to higher wattage modules? Sure, that I would do the any day since the roof space typically doesn't grow.


For future readers, this is only required if needing over 6KW from the batteries at any given time. A single SI with an AT is fine. That is why they made the Smartformer which Midnite now produces. I wouldn't personally use it though, I would use the Victron 100A AT.


SMA requires Lithium batteries to use a BMS with communication. Some do put the SI in AGM mode but there are fundamental issues with that that typically will creep up over time. That's outside of the scope of this post though. My recommendation is the Orion JR 2 for a DIY BMS.


SI's are bi-directional AC <-> battery inverters. Nothing more. So they can run independently without issue but their use is limited to grid backup or buy/sell TOU with the Data Manager M.


I'm going to test this at length then I get time. We have a few parallel systems going in and larger micro grids we are speccing. If there are issues, I suspect the installation practices. I don't believe there are issues here on the hardware level. We will see as I do further testing. Besides that, when connected to the grid in a grid-zero configuration, the supply transformer provides load balancing between the legs... If that isn't happening, there is another issue.

@Sanwizard If I may suggest it, you could for example just drop in 1x or 2x SI6048's with a Data Manager M (and the appropriate piggyback cards) with your existing Sunny Boys and achieve pretty much anything a SOL-ARK will give you regarding Zero-Export or grid-backup etc. Then after that decide if upgrading the existing units is prudent based on performance or other metrics.

I just looked at the Orion BMS. It's over $1000. The Orion Jr is over $500, and then there are the wifi modules for $235, the SOC Meter, CAN adapter, cables....

 

[Sanwizard]

I just looked at the Orion BMS. It's over $1000. The Orion Jr is over $500, and then there are the wifi modules for $235, the SOC Meter, CAN adapter, cables....

Holy crap. The SMA Data Manager M alone is $890.00
Must be one awesome piece of technology! I can get a gaming laptop for less. This is why folks are buying the Chinese crap. Only the very well heeled can afford this stuff.
Huge profit margins, and probably manufactured in Taiwan or China anyway.

 

[the_colorist]

I just looked at the Orion BMS. It's over $1000. The Orion Jr is over $500, and then there are the wifi modules for $235, the SOC Meter, CAN adapter, cables....

LOL. You don't need all of that. We buy in quantity so we don't pay the advertised price but you only need the JR 2 CAN edition ($440?) with the harnesses ($31), current sensor ($43.5), and a USB to Serial cable ($11?).

 

[MurphyGuy]

I just looked at the Orion BMS. It's over $1000. The Orion Jr is over $500, and then there are the wifi modules for $235, the SOC Meter, CAN adapter, cables....

I looked at Orion, good BMS, but too pricey.

I use REC BMS which runs in the mid $300 range + accessories which can tack on another $300 depending on what you want. The REC gives me a USB interface to a laptop, which is connected via WIFI to my home.. so I can see what the battery is doing from any ethernet connected device in my house.
And since the Sunny Boy grid tied inverters also connect to the ethernet, I can tell what the Sunny Island inverters are doing just by looking at the REC BMS and the grid tied inverters (sunny boys).

Mostly its the REC interface that is most useful.. I want to know what the current in/out of the battery is and the voltage..

One other thing I like about the REC BMS is the huge balance current of 1.3 amps.. that's important when your using a 480ah battery.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Holy crap. The SMA Data Manager M alone is $890.00
Must be one awesome piece of technology! I can get a gaming laptop for less. This is why folks are buying the Chinese crap. Only the very well heeled can afford this stuff.
Huge profit margins, and probably manufactured in Taiwan or China anyway.

You noticed that $890 price tag did you? LOL

Ridiculous.. SMA should have just included a user interface like they did with the Sunny Boy grid inverters.

 

[Sanwizard]

LOL. You don't need all of that. We buy in quantity so we don't pay the advertised price but you only need the JR 2 CAN edition ($440?) with the harnesses ($31), current sensor ($43.5), and a USB to Serial cable ($11?).

Thats good to hear! I guess I need to call you if I go the Deye or SMA route!

Quick question, what is needed to monitor the old SunnyBoys? Do I need the expensive data manager M to get telemetry?

 

[the_colorist]

I looked at Orion, good BMS, but too pricey.

I use REC BMS which runs in the mid $300 range + accessories which can tack on another $300 depending on what you want. The REC gives me a USB interface to a laptop, which is connected via WIFI to my home.. so I can see what the battery is doing from any ethernet connected device in my house.
And since the Sunny Boy grid tied inverters also connect to the ethernet, I can tell what the Sunny Island inverters are doing just by looking at the REC BMS and the grid tied inverters (sunny boys).

Mostly its the REC interface that is most useful.. I want to know what the current in/out of the battery is and the voltage..

One other thing I like about the REC BMS is the huge balance current of 1.3 amps.. that's important when your using a 480ah battery.

We were using REC on plenty of systems but the TIC (Total Installed Cost) of the Orion JR2 CAN now beats the REC SI with the quantity discount. And the software/control is not even on the same planet when it comes to functionality.

 

[the_colorist]

Quick question, what is needed to monitor the old SunnyBoys? Do I need the expensive data manager M to get telemetry?

So depending on the firmware, you should be able to get a Speedwire piggyback and that will allow you to connect each inverter directly to a RJ45 on an ethernet router or switch. I haven't done it yet on any of the older models but should be around $150 per unit? I'll check and update this if I'm wrong.

 

[Sanwizard]

I looked at Orion, good BMS, but too pricey.

I use REC BMS which runs in the mid $300 range + accessories which can tack on another $300 depending on what you want. The REC gives me a USB interface to a laptop, which is connected via WIFI to my home.. so I can see what the battery is doing from any ethernet connected device in my house.
And since the Sunny Boy grid tied inverters also connect to the ethernet, I can tell what the Sunny Island inverters are doing just by looking at the REC BMS and the grid tied inverters (sunny boys).

Mostly its the REC interface that is most useful.. I want to know what the current in/out of the battery is and the voltage..

One other thing I like about the REC BMS is the huge balance current of 1.3 amps.. that's important when your using a 480ah battery.

Thanks, I will take a look at the REC. If it looks like I am staying with SMA, then I may have 3 brand new and 1 lightly used 200amp, 2 amp active balance, with temp sensors, Bluetooth enabled BMS's for sale.... I agree with the need for active balance. My bank cells are usually .008V apart max.

 

[the_colorist]

Thanks, I will take a look at the REC. If it looks like I am staying with SMA, then I may have 3 brand new and 1 lightly used 200amp, 2 amp active balance, with temp sensors, Bluetooth enabled BMS's for sale.... I agree with the need for active balance. My bank cells are usually .008V apart max.

We are starting to use the 16S Heltec Active Balancers with the Orion BMS units. Works great. I'm about to test some logic where I trigger the balancers on and off when I want using one of the MPE pins from the Orion. I'm not fond of how low Heltec allows them to balance by default. Heltec has an "Run" header soldered together that I can unsolder and use trigger the balancers on/off using a signal relay.

We're about to stack 5x of the 5.5A 16S active balancers in conjunction with a single Orion JR 2 operating 150 (15S) 280AH REPT cells. There will be 2x banks (150 cells each) with the Orions BMS kits (each with 5x balancers) operating in a Master+Slave configuration over CAN bus and an Orion WiFi Datalogger. The system this powers an island resort.

I spoke with REC about using Active Balancers in conjunction with their SI BMS and they had several concerns and warned against it. That was one of the driving factors to switch to Orion. If you had each one in your hands, there is simple no comparison between them IMHO.

 

[the_colorist]

Thanks, I will take a look at the REC.

REC recently signed an exclusive agreement with a US distributor and attached here are the new prices. I'm one of their US dealers so if someone wants a kit, I'm glad to provide it.

The REC Q BMS is the same price as the SI BMS for reference.

 

[Sanwizard]

Thanks, I will take a look at the REC. If it looks like I am staying with SMA, then I may have 3 brand new and 1 lightly used 200amp, 2 amp active balance, with temp sensors, Bluetooth enabled BMS's for sale.... I agree with the need for active balance. My bank cells are usually .008V apart max.

Just read the REC manual. Its passive balance, needs relays and shunts, and only handles 100amps. Its great that it works with Sunny Island though.
I may just try to get the CAN or RS485 working on the Heltec though, as its much cheaper, does 200amps, has Bluetooth, works with a Raspberry Pi and free software, and has active 2amp balancing. Plus I already own 4 of them... ?

 

[the_colorist]

Just read the REC manual. Its passive balance, needs relays and shunts, and only handles 100amps. Its great that it works with Sunny Island though.
I may just try to get the CAN or RS485 working on the Heltec though, as its much cheaper, does 200amps, has Bluetooth, works with a Raspberry Pi and free software, and has active 2amp balancing. Plus I already own 4 of them... ?

The REC handles 1000s of amps. Orion is the same. There is literally no limit. The only limit is the size of the contactor. We use low cost 400A ones from China generally. 500A and larger on our big systems.

What you probably read was the default value.

 

[the_colorist]

Just read the REC manual. Its passive balance, needs relays and shunts, and only handles 100amps. Its great that it works with Sunny Island though.
I may just try to get the CAN or RS485 working on the Heltec though, as its much cheaper, does 200amps, has Bluetooth, works with a Raspberry Pi and free software, and has active 2amp balancing. Plus I already own 4 of them... ?

PM me if you want the SMA protocol. CAN bus only.

 

[Sanwizard]

We are starting to use the 16S Heltec Active Balancers with the Orion BMS units. Works great. I'm about to test some logic where I trigger the balancers on and off when I want using one of the MPE pins from the Orion. I'm not fond of how low Heltec allows them to balance by default. Heltec has an "Run" header soldered together that I can unsolder and use trigger the balancers on/off using a signal relay.

We're about to stack 5x of the 5.5A 16S active balancers in conjunction with a single Orion JR 2 operating 150 (15S) 280AH REPT cells. There will be 2x banks (150 cells each) with the Orions BMS kits (each with 5x balancers) operating in a Master+Slave configuration over CAN bus and an Orion WiFi Datalogger. The system this powers an island resort.

I spoke with REC about using Active Balancers in conjunction with their SI BMS and they had several concerns and warned against it. That was one of the driving factors to switch to Orion. If you had each one in your hands, there is simple no comparison between them IMHO.

Now THATS a battery! Is that 269KW?!!
What do you have charging that if I may ask?

 

[Cheap 4-life]

In the end folks, it really does not matter. I am sure Sol-Ark is a fine inverter. That being said, the fact that they market the product at an exorbitant price, just means their market share will dwindle in time, as folks choose more reasonably priced products with the same, similar, or even better features. SMA is also a very good product, and they charge half of what Sol-Ark is asking.
As WC Fields said, there is a sucker born every second. Some folks just have to have the brand name to feel good. Its like Prada vs an LL bean or other just as good, reliable womens pocketbook.
Or building your own Lifepo4 battery with BMS, vs buying a Tesla.

Does sma sell an inverter that has all the capabilities of a Deye/SolArk? I think not so they would cost less