DEYE Inverter UL Listed available in US

[MurphyGuy]

From my perspective, the Sunny Island isn't an All-in-One solution that makes the other hybrids standout, even at their much higher price points. The SI also appears to be primarily designed for AC coupling, where as the other AIO's are mostly DC coupled systems (w/ limited AC coupling in Sol-Ark's case).

I'm not experienced enough to critique Sol-Arks's comparison chart to other systems. Even though the attached chart is sol-ark marketing material, I have yet to see anyone refute the listed data...



View attachment 29697

It has shows that the SMA SI systems (2 x 4548) have some pretty poor conversion efficiencies to batteries.

It really depends on how you use the system. AC Coupled systems are far more efficient when the power is being used, while DC coupled systems are more efficient at charging batteries.

In our case, we are AC Coupled and the solar array is capable of making far more power than the batteries need or the house normally uses. With this in mind, we run all our power hogs during the day when the sun is out. This method is more efficient than DC coupling.

However, if you were at work all day and charging a battery bank while you're gone, then the DC coupling would be more efficient because there's no AC conversion needed.

If you're using Lithium batteries, the AC coupling is a better system. With DC coupled systems, the charge controller reads battery voltage to make decisions.. when the battery is full, it waits until the battery drains to start charging again.

With AC coupling, the energy never even sees the battery bank, it goes straight from the grid inverter into your loads.

Why does this matter? It doesn't with a lead acid battery.. not much anyhow. but with lithium, that short cycling causes battery wear when DC coupled.. but not so with AC Coupling.

I hooked up my neighbor with a Sunny Island and DC coupling through a Victron charge controller.. His type of energy use makes more sense for the DC coupling system because of the way he uses power and the ratio of his array size to his battery bank.. It all makes a difference, and while none of it is "do or die", it does add up..

Frequency Shift Power Control is an amazing technology to watch in real time.. seeing the inverters throttle the array to exactly match the house loads is just so graceful and cool to watch.

 

[JoeHam]

In our case, we are AC Coupled and the solar array is capable of making far more power than the batteries need or the house normally uses. With this in mind, we run all our power hogs during the day when the sun is out. This method is more efficient than DC coupling.

I do the exact same thing with my DC based system.

When the solar array is really cranking I run everything I can off the inverter. The batteries still charge and I use the power as it is generated so the batteries get full at the end of the day instead of by noon.

You could argue that I am wasting the small amount of power lost in the inverter inefficiency but it’s really surplus at this point regardless of which way you approach it.

 

[Haugen]

No matter how you use your solar energy, I like the SolArk philosophy of only inverting it once.
PV energy stays DC from the panels and into the batteries. It gets inverted once to be used or sold to the grid.
Maybe I'm just a true believer, but that is the model that that makes the most sense.
Off-grid systems had better generate enough to recharge what was used overnight, or have enough batteries to last a few days.
Grid-tied systems can be programed to only use the power in the batteries lightly until grid failure. Then run like an off-grid system.
Both models benefit from running DC as long as possible.
I was concerned at first of the losses in the cables from the panels via voltage drops. Running high voltage strings minimizes this loss. The math shows that it is minimal compared with what is lost by inverting, then converting.

 

[Ampster]

...............
SolArk includes everything but the batteries. Wire the PV in, the loads out, tie in the grid if needed, and you're done. From what I'm reading here about Sunny Island, functions like transfer switches and inverters need to be added separately, so any price comparisons seem to be seriously lopsided.
These extra components not only add cost, but inefficiencies by having to be wired through mire connectors and longer wires.

Yes that is the definition of "All in One".

 

[mrdavvv]

So Haugen, are you comparing the SolArk with ac coupled devices right?.

I haven't dig deep enough in the subject, so maybe you can help me a bit. Whats the difference of the solark compared with other hybrids, such as the growatts / mpp solars?.

I'm probably wrong, but those hybrids take the PV voltage, and trough the MPPT's they step down said voltage to appropriate levels for the DC stage used by the battery system. From there its used either to supply loads (Trough the DC / AC inverter) or to charge the battery.

So basically: DC PV High voltage --> DC Low Voltage ---> Charging Batteries
---> "Charging" AC inverter.

So whats the difference of the Solark?, what it really put thems appart, its that they can work as string inverter without batteries, they are very efficient (Almost at string inverter levels) and they use very high PV voltage. (Ive seen recent inverters from MPP that are very simillar, but they are fairly new and only available in EU voltages).

That guy is a salesman trying to sell you his version of a product.

There is no substitute for a low freq inverter with a big heavy transformer.

I see you're torn between two manufacturers and trying to see which suits your needs best.. but I don't quite understand.. With SMA Sunny Island's being sold on Ebay at stupidly cheap prices, why is this even a conversation? SMA's Sunny Island are far superior to ether of those brands.. and not just a little better, but in an entirely different league.

When the SMA's are being sold at retail prices, I understand the debate.. but not when they're being sold like a fire sale.

I've been reading lots of these types of threads.. and the one thing I seem to take away from them is that most people just don't realize how much more superior the SMA units are.

Haha, i had my BS marketing sense activated with that video, but i don't know enough electronics to accept or deny any claim.

But as i mention, compared with the other cheap chinese hybrids that i know, they have very tangible advantages (mentioned in the reply above), so they might have something different.

----

About the SMA's, im talking with other forum members in other thread about that option. SMA might be the most solid inverter in the market... but these chinese all in ones are really practical and cheap, so it really makes you think..

A 12K Deye should be around 2800-3500 USD, you get a 12Kw inverter capable of 15kw PV, for that i would need a couple of Islands / Boys, former around 2800 with shipping, and the boys i think around 1800.. so total of around 10K with the extra cables and setup...

I'm adhere to the buy once, cry once principle, the Sunny's should last decades, but with these numbers it could really make a lot of sense to get the chinese and put the extra money on panels, a backup inverter or a nice vacation. I guess it depends on what your priorities are.

 

[MurphyGuy]

About the SMA's, im talking with other forum members in other thread about that option. SMA might be the most solid inverter in the market... but these chinese all in ones are really practical and cheap, so it really makes you think..

A 12K Deye should be around 2800-3500 USD, you get a 12Kw inverter capable of 15kw PV, for that i would need a couple of Islands / Boys, former around 2800 with shipping, and the boys i think around 1800.. so total of around 10K with the extra cables and setup...

I'm adhere to the buy once, cry once principle, the Sunny's should last decades, but with these numbers it could really make a lot of sense to get the chinese and put the extra money on panels, a backup inverter or a nice vacation. I guess it depends on what your priorities are.

Ya, it really depends on how big of a system you're going with, how big the battery is, type of battery, etc.

For example, my Lithium Ion battery is 25kWh and powers 2 Sunny Islands which are AC Coupled to a 10.75kw array that is split between two grid tied SMA SB6.0 inverters with a near equal amount of panel wattage feeding each grid tied inverter.

When the grid goes down, and if the sun is shining, I shut one of the Sunny Boy GT's off. A single Sunny Boy makes enough power to charge the battery bank in about 3 to 4 hours, and has enough left over to run the entire house. That single Sunny Boy will usually go into frequency shift as well.. which means it still makes too much power.
Only time I turn on both arrays is when its gray skies or when I can pump all the extra into the grid.

The 6kw Sunny Boy's are a bit under $1350 at Renvu. The 7.7 is a couple hundred more.

There's a reason those Chinese inverters are so cheap.. you get what you pay for. They add all kinds of nifty features and capabilities so they're sacrificing something somewhere.

Keep doing your research.. its a big decision. Took me 2 years before I knew which way to go for my needs. I put a much higher priority on reliability than I do anything else.

 

[the_colorist]

Victron has some interesting thoughts:

Reasons why to choose DC and/or AC coupled solar in Off-grid Power Systems

Yes, the approach that Sol Ark has is interesting.

No matter how you cut the pie, you have 3 voltages to deal with:

PV Voltage
AC Input/Output Voltage
Battery Voltage

IMHO the ideal solution is the make the PV and battery higher than the AC output but still close enough to it to have minimal conversion losses in step-up/step-down. This is being done more and more commercially. For example:

SMA DC-DC Converter | Intelligently Control the Flow of Power

The new SMA DC-DC converter allows designers to increase their PV power plant’s yields by oversizing the DC array without compromising energy losses.

www.sma.de

That said, for us generally, the biggest transform is 48V DC to 120/240V AC. Or 12/24V to 120/240V.

Sol Ark uses an internal DC-to-DC from the 48V to their internal 400V bus. Then 400V DC bus to 240V AC.

Is that more efficient than 48VDC to 48VAC to 120VAC via 98% eff toroid transformer?

Hmm.

They place SMA's eff AC to Batt at 80%. I would like to see this proven. You're taking a 96% EFF inverter (you'll be in that range during charging, look at the published curve) and saying it's 80% reverse through the H-bridge? Seems doubtful. It would be nice to see this proven, one way or the other.

I spent more time than I'd like to admit looking for an HV off-grid battery inverter. Something that I could trust for a client installation. Nothing yet but perhaps I gave up prematurely. I found some options but some features were lacking for off-grid and I wasn't convinced they were up to the task. Even SMA still specs the SI's for the off-grid market and SB Storage for on-grid/grid-tie/backup/load-shaving.

 

[the_colorist]

I'm adhere to the buy once, cry once principle, the Sunny's should last decades, but with these numbers it could really make a lot of sense to get the chinese and put the extra money on panels, a backup inverter or a nice vacation. I guess it depends on what your priorities are.

Someone at SMA once said they design for 20+ year lifespan on the inverters because anything less would be wasteful. This is one reason they offer up to a 25-year warranty. They found in testing that keeping an inverter within a small temp operating window (keeping it warm) made it last significantly longer than warming up during the day and cooling significantly at night. The temp change can cause expansion/contraction among other things. SMA modified their cooling years ago to try to achieve a smaller temp operating window.

One of the first things I like to show clients is the environmental protection of the SMA inverters. These things have a die-cast (yes die-cast) lid/cover with a seal moulded/embedded in the lid. Open one up 10 years after installation and if it was installed properly, there won't be a spec of dust on any of the internal circuitry.

Even big names like Outback with their Radian series do not have their inverters environmentally sealed. The sealed FXR series is though I believe.
Most other brands aren't either. Even (sadly) Victron doesn't with their inverters last I checked. Depending on where you are at this is a big plus and peace of mind for me personally. It looks like Deye does this? If so, definitely a plus for them. Not sure how they handle temps but at least a person would be sealed from the elements.

 

[MurphyGuy]

They place SMA's eff AC to Batt at 80%. I would like to see this proven. You're taking a 96% EFF inverter (you'll be in that range during charging, look at the published curve) and saying it's 80% reverse through the H-bridge? Seems doubtful. It would be nice to see this proven, one way or the other.

Not a chance.. and the fact that they're claiming this would alarm me and set off my warning lights about their salesmanship.

I can see the power going from my panels to the GT inveter, from the GT inverter into the Sunny Islands, and from the Sunny Islands, splitting off between my house and battery charging..

Its greater than 92%. Its easy for me to put the figures from my BMS's shunt and solar array onto the same computer screen and then do a screen shot of what's happening at any moment in time. A bit of math, and I have my answer. In fact, I don't even need the calculator, I can round it off in my head and I know its over 90%.. And my Sunny Islands are running at the lower end of their efficiency curve because my house doesn't draw enough juice.

 

[Hedges]

One of the first things I like to show clients is the environmental protection of the SMA inverters. These things have a die-cast (yes die-cast) lid/cover with a seal moulded/embedded in the lid. Open one up 10 years after installation and if it was installed properly, there won't be a spec of dust on any of the internal circuitry.

Many of the SMA transformer-based inverters are in their sealed "Opticool" enclosure. They talked about that being merely NEMA-3R yet good for locations on the sea shore. The electronics inside are completely sealed, NEMA-4X (assuming you use such connectors for cables), with air passages for convection cooling bottom to top and fans that turn on when needed. So only the fans are 3R.

Sunny Island models in the US market are sold as NEMA-1, for indoor only, although they are based on Opticool. Circuit breaker and SD card have openings to the electronics enclosure. The European/rest of world models are 4X because those openings aren't there.

My first idea was to get a plastic box with gasketed lid, cut to fit contour and glue over the opening on lit of Sunny Island.

Instead, what I did was to tape a sheet of silicone inside the lid, which seals the front. I'm able to work the breaker but not swap the SD card without removing the cover. Breaker had sharp corners, a metal clip which redundantly ganged the two poles, and I removed it. I also applied a somewhat more stiff sheet of plastic (carrier the silicone sheet was manufactured/packaged on) in the middle of the window over breaker and SD card.

This seals the openings, so my SI-6048 are 4X (except for fans). and then I have a corrugated sheet over them to prevent direct drip of water.

Making cable penetrations water/dust tight would be easy if MC cables go through glands (Sunny Boys) and UF or other flat cables also go through glands. Because I use rigid or liquid-tight flexible conduit for everything, there is a path to the inside. For battery cables through 1 1/4" opening I used a gland for UF around two individual cables, so that isn't sealed either. Thinking of using caulk to seal the various fittings. I got electronics-safe silicone, and I would leave the lids off for a day while it cures.

 

[houseofancients]

So Haugen, are you comparing the SolArk with ac coupled devices right?.

I haven't dig deep enough in the subject, so maybe you can help me a bit. Whats the difference of the solark compared with other hybrids, such as the growatts / mpp solars?.

I'm probably wrong, but those hybrids take the PV voltage, and trough the MPPT's they step down said voltage to appropriate levels for the DC stage used by the battery system. From there its used either to supply loads (Trough the DC / AC inverter) or to charge the battery.

So basically: DC PV High voltage --> DC Low Voltage ---> Charging Batteries
---> "Charging" AC inverter.

So whats the difference of the Solark?, what it really put thems appart, its that they can work as string inverter without batteries, they are very efficient (Almost at string inverter levels) and they use very high PV voltage. (Ive seen recent inverters from MPP that are very simillar, but they are fairly new and only available in EU voltages).




Haha, i had my BS marketing sense activated with that video, but i don't know enough electronics to accept or deny any claim.

But as i mention, compared with the other cheap chinese hybrids that i know, they have very tangible advantages (mentioned in the reply above), so they might have something different.

----

About the SMA's, im talking with other forum members in other thread about that option. SMA might be the most solid inverter in the market... but these chinese all in ones are really practical and cheap, so it really makes you think..

A 12K Deye should be around 2800-3500 USD, you get a 12Kw inverter capable of 15kw PV, for that i would need a couple of Islands / Boys, former around 2800 with shipping, and the boys i think around 1800.. so total of around 10K with the extra cables and setup...

I'm adhere to the buy once, cry once principle, the Sunny's should last decades, but with these numbers it could really make a lot of sense to get the chinese and put the extra money on panels, a backup inverter or a nice vacation. I guess it depends on what your priorities are.

actually, this guy is the designer of sunsynk, deye and sol-ark, and a technical engineer

 

[Haugen]

actually, this guy is the designer of sunsynk, deye and sol-ark, and a technical engineer

@houseofancients, I hope you are referring to yourself! ?

I'm an engineer, but in an entirely different industry.

 

[RCinFLA]

If your primary use case is grid suppliment, DC coupling is not the way to go. It subjects the batteries to high ripple current which shortens their longevity.

Sol-Arc and MPP Solar use DC coupling.

 

[SuperShort]

I'm trying to get a formal solar design done for my system I'm building so my city can approve it. But, the engineering firm is saying that while they see the manual lists UL1741, they don't see the actual UL certification? The are indicating they can't approve use of this in the design.
Where/how do I find this additional certification #? They said they reached out to Deye, but I don't think they got a response. Could be that they are in the US so Deye is ignoring them. I sent an email request to their corporate and was also ignored.

 

[mrdavvv]

I will try to ask for it with my contact sales, let you know if i find something.

 

[The New JC777]

Is this what you are looking for?

 

[SuperShort]

Yes! I think that's it! thank you!

 

[Lavirle]

Are DEYE made in the US?

This is from the SolArk site:

About Sol-Ark​

Sol-Ark is an American-Made, U.S Department of Energy Solar 2020 Semi-Finalist Winner, veteran-owned and engineering firm based in Parker, Texas.

I guess that doesn't really say that the hardware is made in the US.

It’s not American made it‘ made in China

 

[Maast]

I have to interject here: If you're going to spend $3500 on a 8K Deye, then why not just spend $3700 on a Outback Radian? You lose the integrated charging but I'm not a fan of all-in-one boxes anyway. Add a couple parallel Epever or Xantrex charge controllers and you're under 4 grand for a 8Kw that will probably outlast you.

 

[SuperShort]

I have to interject here: If you're going to spend $3500 on a 8K Deye, then why not just spend $3700 on a Outback Radian? You lose the integrated charging but I'm not a fan of all-in-one boxes anyway. Add a couple parallel Epever or Xantrex charge controllers and you're under 4 grand for a 8Kw that will probably outlast you.

I paid $2100 shipped for the 8K Deye. But I don't think I'm getting a warranty. Rolling the dice. I like the integrated battery/charging and time-of-use configuration/intelligence.