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Did I make mistake ordering weird LiFePo4 battery?

A

atg

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Feb 6, 2021
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I wanted to replace my standard Lead Battery for the caravan, which had:
This setup allowed me to use my caravan off the grid for a day with very basic use and heave a healthy 50% reserve. But charging just cell phones/ipads and having a light and heating (Webasto fans) is not enough, and more importantly, if there is no sun I'll I couldn't recharge for the next day. The goal was to upgrade to have the ability to charge MacBook (96W USB-C charger) or just get over cloudy days.

YouTube channel helped me learn about solar panels, chargers and I already started to make changes. Battery upgrade was the most important part, and LiFePo4 looked like a way to go (hard to find in Europe). So I made changes
The battery is still in transit, but I wanted to learn how to set up a charger for the battery and read Wiki ad watched few Youtube clips. When I looked into specs, I saw that my battery consists of different kind of LiFePo4 cells:
  • LiFePo4 Cell : Goldencell
  • Voltage (nominal): 12.8V (12V)
  • Capacity: 200Ah
  • Configuration: 4S53P-26650
  • Energy: approx. 2560 Watt/h
  • charge current: 3A < 50A (0.25C)
  • Internal resistance: < 40 mOhm
  • Charging voltage: 14.4V
  • End-of-discharge voltage: 10V
  • Continuous discharge current: < 100A (approx. 1200 Watt)
  • Weight: approx. 22500g
  • Dimensions (W x L x H): 483 * 235 * 170 mm
  • Tech Details: https://enerprof.de/media/pdf/4a/g0...PO4-Battery-Pack_12_8V_200AhA7hnsa0jpVG5J.pdf
When I tried is to google for "Configuration: 4S53P-26650" or Original name ("Goldencell JG-4IFR12.8-200-Y") I realized, there are A LOT of small batteries in it (4x53 ?). That is very different from LiFePo4 block batteries in DYI configurations and reviews when you tear up packaging that I saw here.

Did I make a mistake? Is this something that is not used for caravan camping purposes? Are the guides and tutorials for MPPT Charger configurations the same for this kind of LiFePo4 batteries? I can return the shipment before opening. Maybe it is better to cover shipping fees and have only that as a loss...

Sorry, I am a newb; maybe I got into this too fast... By looking into all those great videos, I thought I know enough to do this upgrade on my own.

Thanks,
Alex
 
I was going to write this at the end but decided to move this up top. Those batteries actually look really good to me. If they were sold on Alibaba or Aliexpress, I would be HIGHLY suspicious. This appears to be a real German battery company/reseller.

You've ordered and then inquired about them so we'll see what you end up with. Probably okay.

atg said:
LiFePo4 Cell : Goldencell
Click to expand...
My first suspicion is when someone does not spell LiFePO4 correctly.


atg said:
Configuration: 4S53P-26650
Click to expand...
This is a pretty specific battery pack made of small (roughly C cell size) cells spot welded into large packs (4 packs of 53 cells).
This is not necessarily a bad thing as Battleborn does this (i do not recall which cells they use off hand).

atg said:
very different from LiFePo4 block batteries
Click to expand...
You should realize that the "blocks" are 3.2v cells and the cells are formed into batteries (12.8v for 4 in series).

The "Tech Details" hint that it has an internal BMS, which is good.
The specs indicate:
>Over charge protection, Over discharge protection, Temperature protection, Balanced function
 
MisterSandals said:
I was going to write this at the end but decided to move this up top. Those batteries actually look really good to me. If they were sold on Alibaba or Aliexpress, I would be HIGHLY suspicious. This appears to be a real German battery company/reseller.
Click to expand...
Thanks! I was afraid that cylindrical cells were not according to industry practice. I am relieved now...
You've ordered and then inquired about them so we'll see what you end up with. Probably okay.
Click to expand...
I did some research, I found the same battery model branded as VisBis (a Bulgarian company, double price). But unfortunately, the original manufacturer is on Alibaba as well (no Aliexpress). Unfortunately, most of the available LiFePO4 batteries in Europe are some sort of rebranding of Chinese batteries.
>Over charge protection, Over discharge protection, Temperature protection, Balanced function
Click to expand...
I am a little bit puzzled about the Temperature protection feature. Before I found out here that batteries shouldn't be recharged below 0C temperature, I thought that temperature sensing is important for overcharging or heating and potentially exploding batteries. Does this feature mean that BMS will take care of both temperature extremes - subzero and too hot?

I bought Victron BMV 712 to have the ability to monitor how much energy consumers are spending, to have an audible alarm if the battery is empty, to turn off consumers before damaging the battery, but also because it had the option to add the temperature sensor so it can detect low temperature and prevent charging... Unfortunately, that sensor didn't come with the device, so I have to order it separately, but do I need it if BMS can take care of temperature?
 
atg said:
BMS will take care of both temperature extremes - subzero and too hot?
Click to expand...
Charging below 0 deg C is bad but presumable handled by the internal BMS. I have never even gotten an LiFePO4 warm so not sure I'd be concerned about that.
atg said:
to have an audible alarm if the battery is empty,
Click to expand...
The internal BMS should handle low voltage disconnect. But monitoring with a BMV 712 is a nice luxury.

Hopefully these will answer a question or two: (not the same maker but same idea)
PreviewPreview10:46$950 "Battle Born" Battery Tear DownYouTube · DIY Solar Power with Will ProwseNov 15, 2019

PreviewPreview19:20Battleborn Battery CEO Interview! LiFePO4 Low-temp ...YouTube · DIY Solar Power with Will ProwseJan 5, 2020
 
Fantastic! Thanks for the links! Now I know what to look for when the battery arrives.
 
Hi Alex, you have lots of monitoring and system control ability with your Victron solar controller and the BMV 712, both are excellent products.

The battery specification hints at temperature protection but does not specifically state it prevents charging and stresses that charging below 0C must not be carried out.
Since the Victron controller can be programmed to stop charging at a specified temperature, this would seem to be an additional layer of protection that could be easily added. You can use the optional BMV temperature sensor and allow communication via VE direct so the 100/30 controller can use this measurement, or use the Smart battery Sense,
Victron-Energy-Smart-Battery-

The battery you have is typical of 100Ah/200AH 'drop in' batteries sold in Europe constructed from many cylindrical cells in a series/parallel format. On the various camper van forums there are many similar batteries being used successfully.

You can use the MBV 712 internal relay to control external systems based on either voltage or battery state of charge, its easy to program with the app.

Another Victron product you may wish to add to the system in the Victron battery protect,


The unit is fitted between the battery and all consumers, ( but not inverters or chargers).

Mike
 
mikefitz said:
You can use the optional BMV temperature sensor and allow communication via VE direct so the 100/30 controller can use this measurement, or use the Smart battery Sense,
Victron-Energy-Smart-Battery-
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike, I think I will add BMV 712 temperature sensor as precaution, in case BMS doesn’t monitor correctly or at all. I saw wiring diagram for additional temperature sensor, and my understanding is that it simply sends information to BMV 712, which is supposed to somehow broadcast to my Smart Solar Victron MPPT charger and Smart IP 65 Charger? Does it happen automagically or some pairing between devices is needed? I have paired each Victron device with phone, but does it mean that they can only see each other when my phone is around or they see each other all time ?
mikefitz said:
You can use the MBV 712 internal relay to control external systems based on either voltage or battery state of charge, its easy to program with the app.
Click to expand...

I saw that can be used to monitor additional battery and as relay, but I am not sure that can still work when temperature sensor is added, as I think sensor probe is connected to same place?

mikefitz said:
Another Victron product you may wish to add to the system in the Victron battery protect,


The unit is fitted between the battery and all consumers, ( but not inverters or chargers).
Click to expand...

Thanks! I actually thought that BMV does that. But after you told me this, I saw that actually BMV 712 is capable of draining completely battery as it draws current in order to work. So this should be placed even before BMV 712, right?
 
Interesting that the spec sheet of this battery indicates that it is not to be wired in series OR parallel. That's the first time I've seen a 12V LiFePO4 battery not able to be paralleled with other identical units. Or perhaps were they cautioning about paralleling with other brands?
 
THe 'smart battery sense' module connects to the battery and via bluetooth communicates to the Victrom 100/30. As an alternative Bluetooth communication can be set up from the BMV-712 (with optional temperature sensor)
If you use the optional temperature for the BMV712 you loose the second battery voltage ( or battery mid point using batteries in series) information. Having temperature display and alarm warnings is, I think, more useful.

Not all Victron chargers can be networked buy this simple method,


The BMV current draw is very small, less than 1mA, so thats not a problem. On its own it can only control other units via its small low power internal relay.

The smart battery protect can be programmed to disconnect loads, its a solid state switch and has low current consumption. Its either a stand alone unit operating in its pre programmed voltage levels or triggered by a remote signal or relay contacts.

Its possible to use a lithium battery without additional units and rely on its internal BMS but adding an extra external layer of protection is in my view, justified.

Mike
 
orangeminnie said:
Interesting that the spec sheet of this battery indicates that it is not to be wired in series OR parallel. That's the first time I've seen a 12V LiFePO4 battery not able to be paralleled with other identical units. Or perhaps were they cautioning about paralleling with other brands?
Click to expand...
That is the reason why I got 200Ah... I went this route with the plan of getting a much cheaper 100Ah option, and if I am satisfied plan was to get another one and reach the desired 200Ah. But after reading about this in specs, and reading about balancing, the problems with cells of different age I decided to go with one 200Ah.
 
mikefitz said:
The smart battery protect can be programmed to disconnect loads, its a solid state switch and has low current consumption. Its either a stand alone unit operating in its pre programmed voltage levels or triggered by a remote signal or relay contacts.

Its possible to use a lithium battery without additional units and rely on its internal BMS but adding an extra external layer of protection is in my view, justified.
Click to expand...
It looks like I will order Smart Battery Protect as well. I was trying to figure out how to set up everything with the new battery, and I found out that my regular charger (IP65 12/7A) is the one without VE. Smart Networking. That means that even with a temperature sensor connected to BMV-712, there is no way that IP65 Charger will know when to stop charging. So in case when I am hooked to a power source (camp), and the temperature drops below zero, I would have to rely on an internal battery BMS temp monitor.
 
Battery arrived!
1613319071604.png

I was trying to consolidate all information and settings in one place. So I created a spreadsheet with all settings and descriptions of settings from the documentation. I have also watched and read a lot of resources from this site, Victron, and Battleborn sites about optimal settings and entered them in a spreadsheet. My goal is to have the most conservative, long-life, health protection settings, as I am not so sure about the reliability of the battery I've got.

In one tab, I have all settings for chargers (Victron IP65 12/7A and Smart MPPT 100/30) as they have more common settings:
bit.ly

Battery Charging Settings

Chargers Battery Specs,Vicrtron IP65 12/7 Charger,Default,Victron MPPT SmartBlue 100/30,Default,DIY Wiki,BattleBorn,Mobile Solar Power,Custom First Attempt,Suggestions,Suggestions?,Suggestions? Battery Branding,ENERpower,Preset,LiFePo4,Preset,LiFePo4,5,000+ Charge Cycle ,FAQ,Longetivity,Custom 1...
bit.ly bit.ly

The settings that I plan to configure this evening are in the Green column, next to the recommendations I found on the Internet.

I am still puzzled about few things:
1) "Storage Voltage" for AC Charger, as I don't think it is needed at all, but I set it to Float value as in Victron LiFePo4 preset it was at float value.
2) "Maximum Charge Current" for AC charger. I am not in a hurry to charge when in camp or at the garage, so I thought of leaving it at 2A to have gentle charging. But the specs of the battery say "Charging cut-off current: 2A~4A", so not sure that it will charge at all at that low current. So then it will have to be 7A?
3) Couldn't find any direct settings for battery spec: "Standard Cutoff Voltage about 10.0V" but it seems important to me...

For BMV-712 I have created another tab in the same sheet:
bit.ly

Battery Charging Settings

Chargers Battery Specs,Vicrtron IP65 12/7 Charger,Default,Victron MPPT SmartBlue 100/30,Default,DIY Wiki,BattleBorn,Mobile Solar Power,Custom First Attempt,Suggestions,Suggestions?,Suggestions? Battery Branding,ENERpower,Preset,LiFePo4,Preset,LiFePo4,5,000+ Charge Cycle ,FAQ,Longetivity,Custom 1...
bit.ly bit.ly

Basically, I copied what they recommend on the Battleborn site for their batteries. I am planning to use a small LCD display on the battery to read out % of the battery and set starting SoC value and eventually synchronize when it hit 100% on LCD but doesn't show 100% on the BMV display.

I just hope I won't blow out something tonight ;) The spreadsheet is editable, so feel free to add your recommended settings if you have a similar configuration.

Once again thanks to everyone! I have never experienced such a supportive community for newbs...
 
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