curiouscarbon
Science Penguin
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1 watt for 1 second changes 1 gram of water 0.24 celsius
not arguing units, just adding
not arguing units, just adding
DIY Geothermal?
- Thread starter Bob B
- Start date
Bob B
Emperor Of Solar
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Yeah .... my problem is I never did like math .... Unless there was some sort of canned formula I could build into a program... LOL1 watt for 1 second changes 1 gram of water 0.24 celsius
not arguing units, just adding
curiouscarbon
Science Penguin
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Thermal Storage Technology | Cold Climate Housing Research Center
Thermal Storage Technology Assessment This technology assessment was sparked by a strong interest in using thermal storage to supplement home heating systems. Thermal storage can take many forms: water storage tanks that allow residents to burn wood more efficiently; a storage tank for an...
cchrc.org
Ground Source Heat Pumps in Cold Climates | Cold Climate Housing Research Center
Ground Source Heat Pumps Ground Source Heat Pump Demonstration at CCHRC CCHRC installed a ground source heat pump (GSHP) system at its Fairbanks facility in 2012 to see how it handles extremely cold soils. The GSHP displaced an oil-fired boiler to provide heat to a 5,000 square foot space. A...
cchrc.org
Last edited:
Bob B
Emperor Of Solar
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Looks like that didn't work very well.Thermal Storage Technology | Cold Climate Housing Research Center
Thermal Storage Technology Assessment This technology assessment was sparked by a strong interest in using thermal storage to supplement home heating systems. Thermal storage can take many forms: water storage tanks that allow residents to burn wood more efficiently; a storage tank for an...
View attachment 60069
View attachment 60072Ground Source Heat Pumps in Cold Climates | Cold Climate Housing Research Center
Ground Source Heat Pumps Ground Source Heat Pump Demonstration at CCHRC CCHRC installed a ground source heat pump (GSHP) system at its Fairbanks facility in 2012 to see how it handles extremely cold soils. The GSHP displaced an oil-fired boiler to provide heat to a 5,000 square foot space. A...
View attachment 60071
If I was still working, I would have access to the energy auditing on some of the projects we did.
32 volt boater
Solar Enthusiast
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- Aug 7, 2022
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I am thinking using a pressure washer to jet holes into the ground for geothermal would work great.
But I can never seem to think of anything first.
www.google.com/search?q=pressure+washer+to+jet+holes+into+the+ground+for+geothermal
Someone did.
But I can never seem to think of anything first.
www.google.com/search?q=pressure+washer+to+jet+holes+into+the+ground+for+geothermal
Someone did.
32 volt boater
Solar Enthusiast
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- Aug 7, 2022
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This was my idea before we even had the internet, !
No fair.
No fair.
32 volt boater
Solar Enthusiast
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teal95
Solar Enthusiast
Very interesting. I'm in lower Michigan west of Detroit so we have significant heating loads yet also like cooling, along with dehumidification (like yesterday, 80°F with a 70°F dewpoint). We have ~5 acres with a 75'x150' pond but it's not that deep ~10' deepest at the moment, water level is 3+' down from this spring. The pond isn't connected to anything, that's just the ground water level. Our house is in a hill, so the basement is still ~30' above the pond level. It sounds like even with our property and water table pump and dump still wouldn't beat NG, even with current prices.
32 volt boater
Solar Enthusiast
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5 acres, try compost heating. Its free fuel if you live near suburbia and can make a deal with landscapers who normally go to the dump to offload grass clippings and leaves and stuff.
Partimewages
Solar Addict
Pump and dump only works if your water source stays somewhat stable for the heating season. Otherwise just drill or bury a ground loop.
badatfarming
New Member
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- Jul 27, 2022
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I am actively setting up a 6 ton geothermal solution for my off grid residence and farm in Arizona. My primary need is cooling, in fact cooling is ~70% of my annual electrical use. I have spent a couple of years experimenting and looking at various solutions and costs. If you have sufficient land to do horizontal geothermal loops that is an incredibly economical option. The overwhelming cost of geothermal is the hole boring or trenching. In my area it is about 85% of the actual cost. I don't see a reason this configuration isn't equally applicable to cold climates other than your trench may not need to be as deep and you may need less loop pipe because your soil is wetter.
The basic configuration is that you dig deep trenches (~10ft deep x 3ft wide) and bury coil loops of HDPE piping. That piping connects to pumps and those are the water source side of heat pump. In exploring heat pump options I of course looked at mini-splits. However I have about 6,000 sqft including a shop that I want cooled (and a little heated). Being off grid and new construction I don't need all 6,000 sqft conditioned at the same time so I want a lot of zones and I have interior spaces insulated between each other.
I ruled out mini-splits because they aren't really economical with a lot of zones and I don't want a lot of refrigerant lines with long runs inside a residence from a safety, installation and maintenance standpoint. A water to water heat pump is roughly twice as efficienct when you look at whole system as an air to water heat pump is in my climate. In the commercial world buildings are overwhelmingly conditioned using hydronic systems (water piping) to what are called "fan coil units" or FCU. An FCU is basically an air to water heat exchanger with a condensation collection system.
The interior side of the system starts with the heat pump which conditions water to a buffer tank and then an interior water loop that stops at each FCU and then returns back to the heat pump. You could alternatively do forced air in the interior but again it is much less flexibile in terms of zoning and you lose a lot of efficiency in moving conditioned are to where you need it.
The system I settled on requires about 1,000ft feet of trench and ~6,000ft of pipe (in 6 separate 1000ft runs). This length is due to the incredibly dry sandy soil I am working with which has very low thermal conductivity. I have an excavator and I am digging the trench so the expense is modest. Paying someone to do this would be exorbitant. The economics work out that it is cheaper to just buy an excavator, use it for this and then resell it if you want. Renting for the length of time required also pretty exorbitant.
After a lot of research and discussions I placed an order for a water to water heat pump unit from a chinese firm. Even if it is 1/2 as efficient as claimed, it will still be insanely efficient. One other huge upside for off-grid is that a hydronic system allows for a relatively large buffer tank which permits some energy shifting where I have an over abundance of solar electricity during the day and can "over cool" the buffer tank.
The entire system including heat pumps, circulation pumps, piping, etc, is under $7k without labor. By comparison I was quoted $84,000 for a very similar system from a vendor. There is a lot of labor but I am "free". Being quite rural my strategy is always to buy cheap and multiple because paying for warranties and service are pointless to me, no one will come out to my property anyway.
If the word geothermal is attached to anything its price is automatically made X3 or X5 because currently it is only commercial and very rich folks that do these systems as far as I have seen. I am happy to answer any questions people have.
-Garret Glasser in KS has some good intro geothermal youtube videos
-Caleffi also has some good videos on hydronic systems
The basic configuration is that you dig deep trenches (~10ft deep x 3ft wide) and bury coil loops of HDPE piping. That piping connects to pumps and those are the water source side of heat pump. In exploring heat pump options I of course looked at mini-splits. However I have about 6,000 sqft including a shop that I want cooled (and a little heated). Being off grid and new construction I don't need all 6,000 sqft conditioned at the same time so I want a lot of zones and I have interior spaces insulated between each other.
I ruled out mini-splits because they aren't really economical with a lot of zones and I don't want a lot of refrigerant lines with long runs inside a residence from a safety, installation and maintenance standpoint. A water to water heat pump is roughly twice as efficienct when you look at whole system as an air to water heat pump is in my climate. In the commercial world buildings are overwhelmingly conditioned using hydronic systems (water piping) to what are called "fan coil units" or FCU. An FCU is basically an air to water heat exchanger with a condensation collection system.
The interior side of the system starts with the heat pump which conditions water to a buffer tank and then an interior water loop that stops at each FCU and then returns back to the heat pump. You could alternatively do forced air in the interior but again it is much less flexibile in terms of zoning and you lose a lot of efficiency in moving conditioned are to where you need it.
The system I settled on requires about 1,000ft feet of trench and ~6,000ft of pipe (in 6 separate 1000ft runs). This length is due to the incredibly dry sandy soil I am working with which has very low thermal conductivity. I have an excavator and I am digging the trench so the expense is modest. Paying someone to do this would be exorbitant. The economics work out that it is cheaper to just buy an excavator, use it for this and then resell it if you want. Renting for the length of time required also pretty exorbitant.
After a lot of research and discussions I placed an order for a water to water heat pump unit from a chinese firm. Even if it is 1/2 as efficient as claimed, it will still be insanely efficient. One other huge upside for off-grid is that a hydronic system allows for a relatively large buffer tank which permits some energy shifting where I have an over abundance of solar electricity during the day and can "over cool" the buffer tank.
The entire system including heat pumps, circulation pumps, piping, etc, is under $7k without labor. By comparison I was quoted $84,000 for a very similar system from a vendor. There is a lot of labor but I am "free". Being quite rural my strategy is always to buy cheap and multiple because paying for warranties and service are pointless to me, no one will come out to my property anyway.
If the word geothermal is attached to anything its price is automatically made X3 or X5 because currently it is only commercial and very rich folks that do these systems as far as I have seen. I am happy to answer any questions people have.
-Garret Glasser in KS has some good intro geothermal youtube videos
-Caleffi also has some good videos on hydronic systems
Partimewages
Solar Addict
What Chinese manufacturer are you working with for your equipment? Here in the Midwest our horizontal loops are 5-6 feet deep 100 to 125 feet long. We have mostly moist clay soil. Makes for pretty good heat transfer.
badatfarming
New Member
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- Jul 27, 2022
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- 16
I don't want to endorse them yet because it hasn't been long enough for me to say I stand by their gear but I will send to you DM. Moisture in soil dramatically changes the rate of thermal transfer, dry sand like I have is the least efficient of most soil types but then again my frost depth and snow loads are zero, all tradeoffs.
Eber
Student of MacGyver
I realise this thread is not a new one, but I wanted to add something.
In all this, if you wish to put it on solar, you have to be careful. I read on the forum where some of the
chinese inverters like the LVX6048 and the EG4 inverters just do not want to run some of these units.
I am going thru it right now. My 2ton Geologix works great on grid, heats my home for 100 bucks a month but when you put it on one of these inverters, bad things start happening. I have no idea how you would know ahead of time that the inverter you wish to get will play well with your heat pump.
In all this, if you wish to put it on solar, you have to be careful. I read on the forum where some of the
chinese inverters like the LVX6048 and the EG4 inverters just do not want to run some of these units.
I am going thru it right now. My 2ton Geologix works great on grid, heats my home for 100 bucks a month but when you put it on one of these inverters, bad things start happening. I have no idea how you would know ahead of time that the inverter you wish to get will play well with your heat pump.
Zwy
Solar Wizard
My parents well was drilled using one of the old hammer type drills back in 1985. The unit was pretty old, the company had many of the newer hydraulic drills but where my parents live there is a huge gravel bed under the surface.
The old guy that ran it had his hand on the cable all day as it went up and down. He could tell what material he was going thru by the vibration, sand or hard rock. Basically it would pound the material into a slurry and they would then use a dipper to pull it to the surface and dump it. Then pound down another length of well casing and weld up the bit and go at it again.
Slow process but the company said the area we lived in just wasn't the best for hydraulic drills. I think the well is around 240 feet deep.
