DIY LiFePO4 Cost Analysis - February 2022 Edition

[mrzed001]

Yes I am very aware of what Amy can provide but as she's not listing things on her site, it's hard to mention.
BTW: My father came from Kisvárda, my Mother from Poiana Brasov before the Romanians got it.
Small World eh. But let us NOT HiJack this thread.

@Will Prowse made this video about fewer people buying raw cells.

And I think it is because of the (missing) case (problem)

It is like you can buy a perfect mattress for cheap ... but you have to make the bed frame for it yourself (and it will be less than professional).

So for Cost analysis perspective I would say a case/box is a must.


(
Nyíregyháza, Kisvárda ... I went there more times, have friends there.
One time we slept in a mansion there somewhere. It was next to a lake in the middle of a forest. Dears, peacocks and pheasants were freely walking next to us ... so we dropped our jaws. I was not driving and still can not find the place in google map :D
)

 

[Will Prowse]

Thanks for pointing this out to people, i was confused to see Will quote only USA sourced prices for cells, when hardly anyone pays twice the price to get them outside of China.

He was also implying that all cells from China are grade B, used or a scam.

I just purchased 16 of the new K series 280ah cells from Docan for under $2000. They all arrived on time, in perfect condition.

He did the same type of purchase in the past thro Alibaba many times, why did he change his story?

Is he getting a bigger commission from signature solar? That is the only logical explanation.

Has Will finally sold out?

"Has Will finally sold out" - What a ridiculous comment! Here is what I have to say about that:

Signature solar has the lowest commission on the planet, and I hate it. I am trying to find a server rack battery that is better and has a better commission every single day. But 95% of my sales for server rack batteries is with signature solar, so I have no choice to link to those. I hate it.

"He did the same type of purchase in the past through alibaba", NO I did not. I have never purchase cells through alibaba.

I also have never been ripped off from buying cells through Michael or any other distributors that people recommend here on the forum. I thought Amy might have been a scam for awhile actually. I just did not want to risk it. Amy is a legit distributor though, and her prices are very low.

For me, every pack I have bought through aliexpress has been grade B. Have you missed all of those videos? It drives me wild how much work I put into those videos and how I show everything I can, but people think I have some type of brand comittiment or loyalty. I have zero loyalty with any of these companies, and when sales do well with one, I am trying to find another product that can beat it.

And I make way more money with cells than I do with server rack packs. Signature solar commission is 6%, which is the same or less than even aliexpress. Most cell distributors are offering 8-12% commission. And guess what, those sales have dropped to nothing. Even across multiple distributors. For every pack of cells sold through my links, I sell multiple server rack batteries. It is absolutely wild. People are choosing to buy those packs instead. And I do not mean a couple here and there, I am talking millions of dollars worth. And its only going to grow. There are new companies selling server rack batteries and I want to review them all.

I let me viewers decide what to buy because they are grown adults. I will review every single product I can, and even if I hate it, I want to have my affiliate links there for them to purchase it. Just because I do not like something, does not mean I cannot help others understand the downsides when they buy it anyways.

My entire business model doesn't care what people like. What matters most is reviewing everything under the sun and letting people decide on their own. I have recommendations on my website and those products rock. Usually they are the highest value products around, at least from everything I have tested so far.

Also, battleborn sales and other packs have dropped even more. You can buy a chins battery that just works for very cheap. Or people just buy the server rack. I personally would rather buy a server rack pack and be done with it. It just makes everything easier. And other people are doing the same.

 

[Will Prowse]

Also, I am going to try to find more cells to sell regardless. Even though the sales have dropped significantly, I do not care. I am also going to try to find more server rack suppliers besides signature solar. They know this, and all of these businesses know this. I am on zero contracts and I have zero loyalty to these resellers. If everyone cut off my affiliate sales, I would buy a warehouse and sell the batteries on my own. I would rather not, but I may have to in the future.

And what would I be selling through my business? Server rack packs. Because their volume has been much higher than anything else on my channel. I wouldn't sell these random other products that people say they like but never purchase. I would only sell the highest value products, and thats it. I probably wouldn't even have a screen on my server rack pack, it would just be a basic battery. I also think the communication is worthless. I would use a JBD bms instead to make it dead simple. Two terminals and a circuit breaker on the front, and that's it. Just my opinion from link purchasing history I see on my end.

 

[Will Prowse]

No, its more that he checked some vendors and either something went missing in translation, or something else was not made clear. Notice the 'update' part in the pinned comment below the video (yeah, that was me letting Will know). He gets some cells from a US based source shipped to him, they have a price tag. That's what he used in the video. I don't expect Will to be up to date on cell pricing all the time. Heck, even people like LithiumSolar wasn't aware of these prices (it's also in a comment below that video, I also pointed that out to him).

What happens is that some of these cell prices and sources are discussed in a bubble. That is, the amount of people on this forum compared to the amount of viewers Will has is tiny. Added to that, only a fraction of people on this forum are doing DIY batteries. It's hard to get the word out, and to keep track of everything if you're not actively keeping up to date with vendors, the good ones, the bad ones, the issues, etc. Just compare the current situation to what it was a year ago - and now imagine you stepped away for a year not being part of seeing the changes develop...

Yeah and most vendors here on the forum, I did not trust. I also know people get ripped off quite often, and I have on multiple occasions. I was making a god awful lot of money from selling cells through aliexpress, and I took those links down to focus on american distributors (eel and solar supply house), who I know are legit companies that do a great job, and server rack batteries. It makes me very angry when people get ripped off, and I would rather have a good source for cells instead.

But at the end of the day, I am selling 15-20X more server rack packs. It is a fact. And I am trying to find other server rack batteries right now. I will continue to do this till I find something better. My whole business model requires massive volume and thats it. This allows me to bash on everything, and have zero loyalty to these resellers.

These distributors can be replaced pretty easily, and lots of competition is coming on board soon. I love it. Why would I sell out to a single company? I would make less money and I would hate to make videos like that. Have you seen how awful sponsored videos are? Or basic ads online. I hate them. I will find every downside I can for every product, and post them on my channel, and post affiliate links to every site around. At the end of the day, the viewer decides what will be purchased. I have given really bad reviews on products and people still bought them through my links. I tell them not to buy them, and they do it anyways. That is their own personal decision.

 

[Rednecktek]

I would buy a warehouse and sell the batteries on my own.

C'mon Will, after all those tear downs and reviews, we KNOW you already have a warehouse full of batteries.

I kid, but we're here because we like what you do and what you provide in reviews, knowledge, and experience. Never forget that even when we're bitching about something, we're still fans in the end.

 

[Rednecktek]

As an aside, and back to the OP, ignoring the finding-a-box issue, what does the math say about building comparable banks (48v, 15Kw) out of the Chins/Zoom/AmperTime batteries?

 

[MrM1]

I would only sell the highest value products, and thats it. I probably wouldn't even have a screen on my server rack pack, it would just be a basic battery. I also think the communication is worthless. I would use a JBD bms instead to make it dead simple. Two terminals and a circuit breaker on the front, and that's it. Just my opinion from link purchasing history I see on my end.

And Bluetooth Communication. I loves me some Bluetooth

 

[Bluedog225]

I think the next “thing” is larger scale batteries.

The server rack set up is about maxed weight wise. 8-16 of those and we are getting close to a whole house solution.

Next up it the Fortress evault size. 18.5 kWh at 72 cents/Wh. (Did I do that math right?). That needs to come down.

A lot of people can have this lift gate delivered straight to the garage. No problem.

Or I guess we can just keep stacking up these server rack batteries.

​

 

[Surferdudemi]

Actually 16s 48V 280Ah is about 85kg. Each cell is about 5,3kg.
And you can buy server rack case for it.
Amy already producing and delivering it.
You can even customize it for your needs.

View attachment 82589

Was just wondering about this, i.e., packaging my 16 x 271 AH cells. I finally got around to ordering the misc components I need to connect everything up to my Skybox, which has been sitting in the garage whining at being ignored. I get that wood is easy to work with, and LiFePO4 cells are pretty safe, but I just can't bring myself to using a wooden box for this application.

 

[Quattrohead]

Weight wise I bound 4 cells together and added the bus bars, then dropped each set of 4 into my box and wired it all up and tested.
Then I had to move it from my bench to the floor.....now I talk like a girl !!!!!

 

[HRTKD]

My perspective is an RV travel trailer. A nice enclosed case is simply something I don't have room for. Leaving my cells (in a compression fixture) exposed reduces the amount of space I need to deploy them in.

 

[Surferdudemi]

Actually 16s 48V 280Ah is about 85kg. Each cell is about 5,3kg.
And you can buy server rack case for it.
Amy already producing and delivering it.
You can even customize it for your needs.

View attachment 82589

Do you have a link for this?

 

[JJJJ]

There is no doubt having everything in a box already built has appeal. I wrestled with this decision when I first got into this. At the time not much was known about this product and the geek in me really enjoyed Will’s videos on building battery packs.

If I were to start over perhaps I would consider this path instead. On the other hand I have learned a great deal building and balancing batteries.

Server packs reduce preparation time and enable one to get up and running much faster.

If I were to make one suggestion on the Signature model it would be to offer a non welded option in case it became necessary to swap out cells in the future.

 

[mrzed001]

Do you have a link for this?

I heard from it first here in this post:

Documenting Purchase from Amy Wan of Shenzhen Luyuan Technology Co. LTD. Alibaba

lol.. seems there are quite a few "it nerds" here ;-) btw, i am more of the juniper clan ;-) i have a standard full dept 19" server rack here, so it would need to fit in that... it would clean up thing really nicely though Yeah, us nerds need to stick together so we dont get our asses kicked...

diysolarforum.com

Then I asked Amy
With some little modification like insulated middle bar on top of the cells
There was an Up in Smoke post (pack under RV) where this middle rod made a short

 

[Steve_S]

Do you have a link for this?

That's from Amy Wan of Luyuan Tech: https://szluyuan.en.alibaba.com/

EVERYONE SHOULD NOTE
There are Server Rack Batteries _AND_ Telecom Batteries which are Rackmountable as well. Do a Google / DuckDuckGo for "LiFepo4 Telecom Battery", I'll let you discover the Surprises ;-) PS, they are also many available in Europe which are not available in North America.

I thought Amy might have been a scam for awhile actually. I just did not want to risk it. Amy is a legit distributor though, and her prices are very low.

Which AMY ? There are many Vendors with reps named AMY from different companies. Care to clarify ?

 

[Bluedog225]

I can’t see buying from Signature Solar until they start stepping up on the customer service side. It’s sounding pretty abysmal.

 

[JJJJ]

Found a similar discussion from the past

Price per watt hour-diy versus 48V rack battery

Edit-watt hours not amp hours I’ve been digging around and thinking about diy or buying a rack battery like the EG4. Here what I’m seeing. The representative “rack” battery is the EG4 at about $1500. Shipping and taxes not included. The DIY option are cells from Shenzen Luyuan Tech, 4pcs...

diysolarforum.com

 

[Bluedog225]

Yeah, but Upnorthandpersonal’s is better.

 

[JJJJ]

I find both excellent. Some of the cost estimates matched what I found at the time.

I did message Amy regarding an 8s box. Will share any findings with the group.

 

[A.Justice]

I didn't see the cost of tools and miscellaneous parts (connectors, heat shrink, lugs, etc) mentioned here. That's something that snuck up on me quickly.

I ordered cells and a BMS, and had a pretty decent selection of tools for work, so I figured I could put it together. NOPE.

I immediately realized I needed to buy bench power supply to top balance, a new crimper that can do larger than 10awg, copper lugs, thru-case terminals, and all kinds of little stuff that added up to well over $200. That doesn't even include the stuff I tried to cheap out on and had to replace later.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

You can actually balance them over time with the BMS I included in the calculation. I tried this last summer by deliberately taking my pack out of balance. It takes time, but it gets there in the end.

You would need lugs and heat shrink for the rack mounted battery as well though to connect it to the rest of the system.

 

[JJJJ]

Gosh. Embarking on this pathway has given me permission to get new toys, I mean tools.

 

[Rossman]

Not gonna lie - it did feel disingenuous that Will was linking batteries that sell for $225/cell when the best suppliers of the same cells on this forum will get them in your hands for under $150/cell.

I mean, I get it, if money was no object rack mount pre-built batteries are certainly appealing, but they still command about 50% more money for the same capacity, and that's the reality today.

 

[Rednecktek]

I wonder how hard it would be to snag an old 4U server case and gut it with a dremel... Those things are a dime a dozen out here if you're OK throwing out the old guts yourself.

 

[Will Prowse]

Not gonna lie - it did feel disingenuous that Will was linking batteries that sell for $225/cell when the best suppliers of the same cells on this forum will get them in your hands for under $150/cell.

I mean, I get it, if money was no object rack mount pre-built batteries are certainly appealing, but they still command about 50% more money for the same capacity, and that's the reality today.

How is it disingenuous? Do you also think it is my fault that 100's of thousands of dollars were lost by people buying cells on this forum? I do not trust the suppliers here, besides Amy.

When I made grade B cell videos, I had tons of comments saying that I am an idiot and what I am doing is dangerous for beginners to see. If I recommend ready built packs that are a fraction of a battleborns price, then people think I am pushing server racks? People are buying more server racks than any other battery I link to. I also used to make lots of money from grade b cells on aliexpress, and they worked great for me! Should I ignore all the people crying about using the cheap cells as well?

I would make a lot more money if people were buying cells, but they are not. I can see the stats and multiple distributors have complained about it. It is possible that Amy and others are selling all the cells now.