DIY LiFePO4 Cost Analysis - February 2022 Edition

[Will Prowse]

Battle born batteries are cost more than 2X as much as a server rack battery, and my videos are still posted and people are still buying them. Just because something is more expensive does not mean it is disingenuous to sell them. People like ready built, high quality packs.

I want to review the fortress power batteries, but I know I would get numerous comments saying "we cannot afford this Will, what is your deal?" then emails saying I need to focus on cheaper products. Then when I post the cheaper products, I will get people complaining that it is not UL listed. It is driving me nuts.

 

[curiouscarbon]

"Has Will finally sold out" - What a ridiculous comment! Here is what I have to say about that:

Signature solar has the lowest commission on the planet, and I hate it. I am trying to find a server rack battery that is better and has a better commission every single day. But 95% of my sales for server rack batteries is with signature solar, so I have no choice to link to those. I hate it.

"He did the same type of purchase in the past through alibaba", NO I did not. I have never purchase cells through alibaba.

I also have never been ripped off from buying cells through Michael or any other distributors that people recommend here on the forum. I thought Amy might have been a scam for awhile actually. I just did not want to risk it. Amy is a legit distributor though, and her prices are very low.

For me, every pack I have bought through aliexpress has been grade B. Have you missed all of those videos? It drives me wild how much work I put into those videos and how I show everything I can, but people think I have some type of brand comittiment or loyalty. I have zero loyalty with any of these companies, and when sales do well with one, I am trying to find another product that can beat it.

And I make way more money with cells than I do with server rack packs. Signature solar commission is 6%, which is the same or less than even aliexpress. Most cell distributors are offering 8-12% commission. And guess what, those sales have dropped to nothing. Even across multiple distributors. For every pack of cells sold through my links, I sell multiple server rack batteries. It is absolutely wild. People are choosing to buy those packs instead. And I do not mean a couple here and there, I am talking millions of dollars worth. And its only going to grow. There are new companies selling server rack batteries and I want to review them all.

I let me viewers decide what to buy because they are grown adults. I will review every single product I can, and even if I hate it, I want to have my affiliate links there for them to purchase it. Just because I do not like something, does not mean I cannot help others understand the downsides when they buy it anyways.

My entire business model doesn't care what people like. What matters most is reviewing everything under the sun and letting people decide on their own. I have recommendations on my website and those products rock. Usually they are the highest value products around, at least from everything I have tested so far.

Also, battleborn sales and other packs have dropped even more. You can buy a chins battery that just works for very cheap. Or people just buy the server rack. I personally would rather buy a server rack pack and be done with it. It just makes everything easier. And other people are doing the same.

thank you again for your delightfully straightforward and thoughtful approach, such transparency is somewhat rare.

thank you for studying these technologies and helping educate the public about how it use it in everyday life.

reviews where you like the device overall are often my favorite because, if a flaw or issue shows up, i can count on you to articulate it.

cheers!

 

[Will Prowse]

This is my updated pinned comment:

 

[Rednecktek]

Not gonna lie - it did feel disingenuous that Will was linking batteries that sell for $225/cell when the best suppliers of the same cells on this forum will get them in your hands for under $150/cell.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges here a bit. Yes, the cells Will was recommending A Few Years Ago were much more expensive than what Our Suppliers Now can provide. Also, not all his YT subscribers are here on the forum. Back in Tha Day getting Actual Grade A cells at advertised capacities was a crap shoot and you had the choices of 1: Paying more for cells that Will has tested and worked with that prove to be what they're saying they are, or 2: Order "Grade-A" cells from AliWhatever, Oh, they're bloated and dead? Oh well, too bad, your warranty expired before they were off the boat.

The cells he's advertising now are ones he trusts from sources he trusts, and we all trust him for reasons. They're also in line with what you'll find from other sources. Compare prices today across various suppliers and they're all MUCH cheaper than suppliers of the Same Quality product from 4 years ago.

Other than that, the rackmounts are just convenient for many people, and people pay a LOT for convenience, otherwise McDonalds wouldn't exist.

 

[Rossman]

I think you're comparing apples to oranges here a bit. Yes, the cells Will was recommending A Few Years Ago were much more expensive than what Our Suppliers Now can provide.

his video is from like yesterday dude, he links a US supplier selling EVE 280Ah cells, 4 for $899USD (~$225/battery).

 

[Rossman]

How is it disingenuous? Do you also think it is my fault that 100's of thousands of dollars were lost by people buying cells on this forum? I do not trust the suppliers here, besides Amy.

Well if you are saying "there's no price advantage to DIYing" then it's disingenuous because you aren't comparing the best priced offerings in each category.

If you trust Amy use her pricing then, which last quote I got from her was ~$140USD incl shipping, not some local american affiliate that charges a premium.

 

[Will Prowse]

Just to give an idea of how much the server racks are selling, I have about 20 affiliate programs I am part of through goaffpro, shareasale etc. Signature solar/Jakiper/SOK server racks sold 20X more than my best month with aliexpress and all cell distributors combined. It is absolutely crazy how much sales have dropped. Remember electric car parts company? Those fortune cell sales have dropped to nearly zero. Ask these companies, the server racks are selling so many that it is mind boggling. People do not want to DIY their own packs.

And yes, those suppliers I recommend have fantastic cells that are brand new and customer support. I thought the price was great compared to not long ago, but if you buy direct, they can be much cheaper.

 

[Rossman]

No-one is disputing your affiliate sales numbers, or that people prefer off the shelf units.

I am just saying it's silly to say don't bother doing DIY when off the shelf products still command at least a 50% price premium.

 

[Will Prowse]

Well if you are saying "there's no price advantage to DIYing" then it's disingenuous because you aren't comparing the best priced offerings in each category.

If you trust Amy use her pricing then, which last quote I got from her was ~$140USD incl shipping, not some local american affiliate that charges a premium.

Yeah, Amy does have good cells, but their affiliate program requires using an "affiliate" listing that is priced higher. A forum member sent me her cells and so did she, they are really nice. No one is going to purchase through the higher priced listing. I would love to sell her cells, but I can't, unfortunately. I just emailed her today to have her match aliexpress affiliate program. Hopefully she agrees, and then I can make videos about them.

I don't think you realize that I do not post links or mention any product that does not have an affiliate program. I did that multiple times in the past and I got screwed by it. I will never do that again. If Amy does not have an affiliate program that allows commission for all products on the site, I won't do it.

This is why I am not on any sponsorship contracts either, and never will be. I use affiliate programs only so I can do whatever I want. If they change their affiliate program operating agreement or raise prices, or people here on the forum complain about a company, I take them off the site.

Then I find another affiliate program with identical product, then link to that instead. I have switched links just because you guys complained about customer service. I do it all the time. If you complain about a product and have a reason, I listen and find another program.

 

[Will Prowse]

No-one is disputing your affiliate sales numbers, or that people prefer off the shelf units.

I am just saying it's silly to say don't bother doing DIY when off the shelf products still command at least a 50% price premium.

Yes true, but people vote with their dollars. Sometimes the comments in my videos do not match the numbers I see. I will even give a bad review for a product, and people sell it out. It is always up to the individual to decide, but I want to be the one who reviews everything and tells everyone every single downside to the product. I love my job! Right now, I just found a problem with the ecoflow delta pro, and I cannot wait to make a video to show you guys. That is what I do.

 

[JaVid]

This is my updated pinned comment:
View attachment 82736

First off - thank you for all you do to put awesome info out there! You have changed the world more than most.

I agree about the server rack batteries being a better value at this point - even if there are cheaper cells out there than you profiled in your video.

I built a 14Kwh DIY battery and if I was starting fresh right now, I would go with server rack. If I was adding on to it, I would add on DIY since I already have all the tools and time sunk with learning at this point, but the server rack batteries are amazing value and you don't need to spend so much time to learn and figure out every last thing.

 

[Rednecktek]

his video is from like yesterday dude, he links a US supplier selling EVE 280Ah cells, 4 for $899USD (~$225/battery).

Oh. I haven't had enough bandwidth to watch YT in 2 months. Ship life sucks for some things.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

It's simple really: the majority of people who want LiFePO4 batteries can't or won't DIY. I think that's pretty obvious: how many people on this forum build their own packs? In contrast, how many people want to have access to an affordable LiFePO4 battery? (or even: how many of Will's viewers are actually on the forum?). So sales drop on expensive cells because everyone DIYing them already knows those expensive cells are not the way to go. Sales on rack based systems go up because they're now accessible to all those people that want them, but can't make them...

 

[Will Prowse]

You know what, maybe we should remove all corporate interest from this forum (the corporate corner). Then the forum will not be mentioned all the time for having cheap cells. I want this forum to be for education use only. I am not allowed to post links here either, but here Amy is selling millions of dollars of products through the forum. I think I will run a poll and see what everyone thinks. I am tired of getting accused of selling out or lying, it is driving me nuts. I pay for this forum with my own money, and there are only volunteers here. I thought allowing corporate interest would be fine if we stuck it in its own sub group, but it taints the image of the forum.

 

[Rossman]

I'd absolutely have bought off the shelf batteries if they were cost competitive, but they are not, so here we are. I am not as rich as many of you, clearly

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I want this forum to be for education use only.

Part of that means being able to guide people to the stuff they need. This automatically means pointing out where to get them. To be honest, I'd rather have a vendor engage on the forum and have a two way communication in the open, than some he said/she said over Alibaba. Much easier to call out the bad apples. Remember the chaos it was two years ago with everyone (including me) taking big gambles, with the idea that others would benefit from those gambles.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[Will Prowse]

Part of that means being able to guide people to the stuff they need. This automatically means pointing out where to get them. To be honest, I'd rather have a vendor engage on the forum and have a two way communication in the open, than some he said/she said over Alibaba. Much easier to call out the bad apples. Remember the chaos it was two years ago with everyone (including me) taking big gambles, with the idea that others would benefit from those gambles.

Just my opinion of course.

Yeah very good point. I really did like how signature solar was able to respond to everyone in the thread pertaining to their inverters. It helps a lot of people.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Yeah very good point. I really did like how signature solar was able to respond to everyone in the thread pertaining to their inverters. It helps a lot of people.

And quite some people are upset with them right now... So Signature can either fix the situation, or they don't - but the communication is all there.

 

[Will Prowse]

And quite some people are upset with them right now... So Signature can either fix the situation, or they don't - but the communication is all there.

What do you think about Amy selling cells here?

If anyone would like to share their thoughts on this, let me know.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

What do you think about Amy selling cells here?

If anyone would like to share their thoughts on this, let me know.

It's a fine line to walk on, but the corporate corner rules does allow it. In the end, I think it's for the better overall. Again, just my opinion and I don't have any skin in the game.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I do know that the amount of scammers with cells on Ali* has gone up a lot over the last year. In many ways, it's good to be able to point a new guy to at least something you know won't show up bloated. Remember, many people new to this are over their head initially - id' rather they'd be in over their head with something that's at least safe on arrival.

 

[Will Prowse]

I do know that the amount of scammers with cells on Ali* has gone up a lot over the last year. In many ways, it's good to be able to point a new guy to at least something you know won't show up bloated. Remember, many people new to this are over their head initially - id' rather they'd be in over their head with something that's at least safe on arrival.

Very good point. I agree.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Also, the forum has grown a lot. It's not a bad thing those rack batteries are available, since a lot of people shouldn't be DIYing a battery like this. We point them to those as well, so it's not that this forum just has a place for cheap cells. The forum (it's participants) has detailed information and knowledge on all different kinds of systems, so it helps to have a few sources to point them at, be it cells, ready made systems, etc. In the end, I expect (with the growth of the forum) that other corporate interests (like Signature) will find this site. It's not a bad thing that these guys have a place on the forum as well, as long as they play by the rules. The open communication should weed out the bad players in this field as well.

 

[Rossman]

What do you think about Amy selling cells here?

If anyone would like to share their thoughts on this, let me know.

I specifically came to this forum to read unbiased reviews on the cells from vendors like Amy (Luyuan?) and Docan.

 

[JJJJ]

Perhaps it is best to step back and consider things.

Will is simply telling us the view of the market from the sales that he is seeing. Nothing more, nothing less.

His videos were what inspired many of us to pursue the DIY approach. They are all still there for anyone to see.

The fact that this forum exists is a testament to his support for the DIY crowd.

Markets change. As more and more people enter the market, many will be looking for a more convenient way of doing things, even if it costs more.

When computers first came out, there were plenty of DIY techs who could field strap a computer together from bits and pieces. Many of us have learned similar skills.

The IBM Personal Computer took the market by storm because it simplified the process of using a computer. As I stated earlier, I seriously considered a server type battery and may do so in the future. As I write this, I am top balancing a battery pack. The bench charger has been running for hours. I make regular checks with my mulimeter to make sure everything is OK. When everything final checks out, I still need to attach the BMS, fuse assembly, switch, etc.

I feel it an honor to have learned these skills. This was possible due to outstanding videos put together by Will and the well educated members of this forum.