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Do I need Single or 3-Phase Grid Tie Inverter To Run 240V

The images and the exercise of measuring point on the circuits relative to where you have your meter black lead was designed to cause one to understand there is no "phase" in a single phase system. Well, there is "a" phase I guess....a single phase.

Consider this when looking at an AC sine wave power source......You sit down at the output leads of a single phase generator that is powered by a piston engine. The engine has an ideal throttle and you have it throttled to run at exactly 3600 RPM and the generator winding is such that at this RPM you get 60 cycles per second output. You can access the output on two wires, L1 and L2. The generator is not grounded to earth and no part of the generator output is grounded to the frame. No ground reference at all. You also have two "magic" controls. The controls are labeled, "stop time" and "slow time advance". The first will stop time so you can study what is going on. the second will allow you to "jog" time, moving it slightly forward. Connect to L1 and L2 are a couple of LED, connected opposite each other with resistors in series so they will not burn up. One LED outputs blue and the other one red. You also have a DC volt meter. The generator is running and it appears that blue and the red LEDs are on all of the time. You try to measure the voltage between L1 and L2 but get no reading.

Bob walks up and you tell him you are trying to study the output of this generator and are just getting started, but you really don't have the type of meter that you need. Bob see the Stop Time button and presses it. Now only the red LED is on. You measure the volts and now you have a reading of 47 volts. That is a bit odd. Bob likes to press buttons, so Bob presses the Jog button to see what will happen. You notice the voltage now says 16. Still this is not making clear sense. Bob again hits Jog. Now the blue LED is on and the red LED is off. The volts read -97. Somehow when the blue LED is on, the voltage is negative compared when the red LED is on. But if you switch your meter leads so that black is on L2, the voltage is negative when the red LED is on. You and Bob continue playing with Jog until you determine that the voltage is never more than 340v and that the red and blue LED are off and on in an alternating fashion. Then Steve shows up and has an oscilloscope. You connect it to L1 and L2, then release the Stop Time control and you see that you have a sine wave on the scope. Steve also has an AC volt meter and you discover AC RMS voltage is 240 volts. Now you have it all figured out.

Steve says, "Hey, I have a generator just like that. Do you think we can hook them up in tandem so they can output twice the power, working together?" Larry has been standing by enjoying the fun and adds, "You better make sure you get them in phase with each other before you connect them together!" So Steve gets his generator out and fires it up. Like yours it will hold 3600 RPM without waver. You know you need to get them in phase and if you can see both output waves on the scope, you can tell if they are in phase or not. So you connect Steve's L1 and L2 up on channel B of the scope, hoping that will work. Well you can see something but it makes no sense. Then you remember that for years you have been carrying this thing called a signal generator around and was never sure what to do with it, but you know it can output a 60 cycle square wave and you know that you can make the scope lock into that so the lines sweep across the scope screen at 60 cycles, independent of what is on either channel A or channel B. Now you can see two perfect sine waves but they are not lined up. Bob is still much interested in those buttons and hits the Jog again but that button will only affect your generator. You see the wave on channel slide over a bit. It is now actually closer to lining up with channel B than it was before. "Hit it again", Steve shouts. After several tries it looks like it is lined up as perfect as anyone could expect, with Bob at the controls. It looks good. The high points are in line. The low points are in line. The zero crossings are all in line.

So Steve grabs some wire nuts and a heavy cord with a 240v plug on the end. Steve is a man of men and is determined to connect up "hot". He joins the two L1 lines together and to his power cord, first wire with the wire nuts. He is just about to join the two L2 lines together and you have a thought. "What if we missed something somehow. This could be bad if done incorrectly." You have a new Iphone charging cable and the cable has one of those little wire twist ties on it. You get the twist tie, remove the plastic from it, leaving a thin bare wire. You tie the thin wire to Steve's L2, hand your safety glasses to Bob, and say, "Bob touch that little wire to that one on my generator marked L2 so we can get some more readings." Poof, in a flash of light the little wire is gone and Bob has a funny look on is face. What could be wrong?

You look at your generator closely and then look at Steve's generator. You see that Steve's L1 exits the housing right where your L2 exits, like his wires are backwards from yours. We had the waveforms lined up, so how can they be different? Not sure but let's switch one of them and try again. Now looking at the scope, the waves are still in sync but the top and the bottom are opposite each other. The generator leads were marked wrong on Steve's generator. We switched them and NOW the waves are messed up. So we swap the scope channel B's ground and probe leads on Steve's L1 and L2, and all looks good again. So swapping the scope leads around, made the waveform move 180 degrees? After digging around in the floor of Steve's truck, Steve finds a bread twist tie and says, "Lets use this". Again Bob is called on for his special skills. This time the wire does nothing, like nothing is going on. Steve brings his AC meter over and measures between both L2 lines from the two generators and reads zero volts. Yes, that make sense. We wouldn't want anything happening there. The work needs to be connect to L1(combined) and L2(combined) ....and we should get twice the power.

The end.

The story above demonstrates two phases, one from each generator. While they were brought into phase, a polarity issue cause confusion both with what was seen on the scope and in the connections made. At a given frequency (cycles per second) being out of phase means a time shift between phases.

In a single phase power source, there is one phase and no part has a time shift. What looks like 180 degrees "out of phase" is a polarity issue in the way the scope is connected. The 4 images that I posted are to allow a person to see this if the mental exersize is done. Set your black meter lead at ground and in the first battery image you should get 0v, 12v and 24v as you measure 3 points in the open circuit. If you do the same on the second battery image you will get -12v, 0v, 12v. That does not mean that the battery on the left is reversed (or out of phase), but means the meter leads are reversed. Do the same thing with an AC volt meter and you will get 0, V and 2 times V on the first transformer image. Repeat on the second transformer image and you will get V, 0, V. No negative because you don't see polarity with the meter. Repeat with a scope and you can see polarity, the lower half and the upper half are flip-flopped because you flipped the direction of your metering according to the direction of current (at any instant in time).

Again one phase in single phase. Polirity on a scope shows one half of the transformer output upside down if you keep your reference connection on the center tap and move both up and down the coil from that point. If you have a scope without any common connection between both probe ground leads and the scope is isolated from ground, you should be able to do this for real. But use extreme care. Even with 12volt systems you can melt your scope leads if you don't have your ducks in a row.

Dan
 
Sometimes town houses, condos and apartments are fed with a three phase service but even then, the feeders to the individual units are single phase.

Well, our condo has 120/208. Not the full "Y", just a "V" with two legs at 120 degrees not 180 degrees like 240V split-phase.
So a 240V split-phase system wouldn't be happy connected to that. But a 120V or 208V grid-tie inverter should do fine.
The transformerless SMA inverters I got warn about a limit on capacitance of the PV panels, because they have ohmic connection to the grid. I doubt that is really a problem when I use them on 240V because they won't carry an AC signal, but on 208 they will be spinning around the neutral, carrying an AC voltage.
 
Well, our condo has 120/208. Not the full "Y", just a "V" with two legs at 120 degrees not 180 degrees like 240V split-phase.
So a 240V split-phase system wouldn't be happy connected to that. But a 120V or 208V grid-tie inverter should do fine.
The transformerless SMA inverters I got warn about a limit on capacitance of the PV panels, because they have ohmic connection to the grid. I doubt that is really a problem when I use them on 240V because they won't carry an AC signal, but on 208 they will be spinning around the neutral, carrying an AC voltage.
? I don’t see how this is possible...
 
? I don’t see how this is possible...

What, the 2 legs 120 degrees, or transformerless inverters?

The condo complex gets 208Y, but instead of all 4 wires plug ground going to each unit, we get 3 wires (2 hots and a neutral) plus ground. So 120V outlets are normal, and heating appliances see 208V instead of 240V.

Transformerless: Solar panels go through MPPT to produce DC voltage on a capacitor. The inverter uses a switching circuit to drop that to the sine wave it sees from the grid. Positive rail is used to synthesize positive half of each AC phase. Negative rail is used to synthesize negative half (or else just rides it; I'll have to put a meter on the PV panel leads to see if they are at steady DC in my split-phase application, or if they bounce up and down like rectified AC.)

This wasn't permitted by code initially, so grid tie inverters were transformer isolated. Once it was developed and approved it allowed lighter weight and slightly higher efficiency inverters. My original 2500W transformer inverters from 15 years ago were about 95% efficient, the 10,000W one is about 98% to 99% and is the same weight for 4x the power.
 
What, the 2 legs 120 degrees, or transformerless inverters?

The condo complex gets 208Y, but instead of all 4 wires plug ground going to each unit, we get 3 wires (2 hots and a neutral) plus ground. So 120V outlets are normal, and heating appliances see 208V instead of 240V.

Transformerless: Solar panels go through MPPT to produce DC voltage on a capacitor. The inverter uses a switching circuit to drop that to the sine wave it sees from the grid. Positive rail is used to synthesize positive half of each AC phase. Negative rail is used to synthesize negative half (or else just rides it; I'll have to put a meter on the PV panel leads to see if they are at steady DC in my split-phase application, or if they bounce up and down like rectified AC.)

This wasn't permitted by code initially, so grid tie inverters were transformer isolated. Once it was developed and approved it allowed lighter weight and slightly higher efficiency inverters. My original 2500W transformer inverters from 15 years ago were about 95% efficient, the 10,000W one is about 98% to 99% and is the same weight for 4x the power.

My confusion was how a 2 circuit transformer could produce 120degree phase... of course a 3 phase panel feeding only 2 of them in... duh.
 
I was wondering how the 180° is created. Are you saying that it's a natural phenomena that will occur whenever I combine two 110Vs with a single neutral, then connect their lives? I'll always get 180°? I just assumed that the 180° was generated by the power company, or the inverter if it supported it with something to synchronize it.
No. You were correct in your original assumption. It works the other way around. When 220 is supplied with 2 phase you can split it to be two 110V independent lines that are out of phase with each other. They would be on separate circuits. Combining two 110V lines will only make 220V when they are already 180 degrees out of phase. Otherwise, any other phase relationship and they will combine oddly and can be dangerous. If you only had one source for your 110V, and needed 220V, you would create two 110V wires, and pass one of them through a phase inverter, and then you could use the two hots as 220V. Combining two 110V lines that are NOT perfectly 180 degrees out of phase requires special electronics to provide 220V. You can't just wire them together. I'm sure there is a good video on phase relationships on Youtube, but essentially, you were right with your original understanding.
 
No. You were correct in your original assumption. It works the other way around. When 220 is supplied with 2 phase you can split it to be two 110V independent lines that are out of phase with each other. They would be on separate circuits. Combining two 110V lines will only make 220V when they are already 180 degrees out of phase. Otherwise, any other phase relationship and they will combine oddly and can be dangerous. If you only had one source for your 110V, and needed 220V, you would create two 110V wires, and pass one of them through a phase inverter, and then you could use the two hots as 220V. Combining two 110V lines that are NOT perfectly 180 degrees out of phase requires special electronics to provide 220V. You can't just wire them together. I'm sure there is a good video on phase relationships on Youtube, but essentially, you were right with your original understanding.
I suggest you read and understand my post (above) from 24 Nov 2019. The idea that US split phase, two legs are "out of phase" is incorrect. They are in phase. The two legs do have different polarities, if you reference the center tap neutral/ground. There is a difference between AC polarity and phase angle. Both legs being part of the series circuit of the transformer secondary, they must have the same current at the same time, in the same direction.
 
I suggest you read and understand my post (above) from 24 Nov 2019. The idea that US split phase, two legs are "out of phase" is incorrect. They are in phase. The two legs do have different polarities, if you reference the center tap neutral/ground. There is a difference between AC polarity and phase angle. Both legs being part of the series circuit of the transformer secondary, they must have the same current at the same time, in the same direction.
Ok, so perhaps I have misunderstood you, but I was not contradicting you, I was addressing eric calco from what seems to be a very old thread. He was asking if you could just connect two 120V circuits together, and of course, you can't, as your story from 2019 about the generators pointed out.

You say "Both legs being part of the series circuit of the transformer secondary, they must have the same current at the same time, in the same direction." that's true in regards to the overall secondary winding having the same current flowing through it, but the phase (or instantaneous polarity) from the top of the winding is opposite that at the bottom of the winding. In reference to the center tap, the two resulting circuits are therefore out of phase precisely for the reason you say, their instantaneous polarity are opposite to each other in reference to the center tap.

In any case, I like your two generators with the stop time and jog buttons.

Eric undoubtedly figured out the situation long ago, but for anyone interested in combining two 120V circuits that are in phase or out of phase, here is a nice video:

I would delete my comment if I could figure out how to do it.
 
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But what I would to is use two 120V outlets of a single building, fed by 120/240V split-phase, to produce 240V. I currently use two legs of 120/208Y, each delivered to a separate 120V outlet, to get 208V at work.

If you plug a load into a two headed snake cable like this, you have a suicide cord. It works if both plugs are inserted before the load is connected (and disassembly is the reverse of assembly.) I put a couple relays in the outlet box as interlocks, and labeled it "Not a suicide cord."

What doesn't work is two independent 120V sources, like two generators or inverters which don't have a synchronizing cable.
 
Ok, so perhaps I have misunderstood you, but I was not contradicting you, I was addressing eric calco from what seems to be a very old thread. He was asking if you could just connect two 120V circuits together, and of course, you can't, as your story from 2019 about the generators pointed out.

You say "Both legs being part of the series circuit of the transformer secondary, they must have the same current at the same time, in the same direction." that's true in regards to the overall secondary winding having the same current flowing through it, but the phase (or instantaneous polarity) from the top of the winding is opposite that at the bottom of the winding. In reference to the center tap, the two resulting circuits are therefore out of phase precisely for the reason you say, their instantaneous polarity are opposite to each other in reference to the center tap.

In any case, I like your two generators with the stop time and jog buttons.

Eric undoubtedly figured out the situation long ago, but for anyone interested in combining two 120V circuits that are in phase or out of phase, here is a nice video:

I would delete my comment if I could figure out how to do it.
Deleting comments, sometimes me too. My "I suggest..." would be better "I encourage"....haha. A long ago I understood how to wire 120/240 split phase but I didn't understand it. Later, I was taught the legs were out of phase 180, which I could never make sense of because in waveform theory, they would buck each other, not add up to be 240v. At some later date, I studied electronics and industrial electricity. Those studies include motor, generator, and transformer theory. (stating this to whoever might want to learn more) One of the most helpful things is to get a 120v to 12v transformer with 2 secondaries so a person can experiment/practice with series, parallel, or series with center tap outputs from the transformer. Once a person understands a dual secondary transformer, center tap transformer output, and transformer coil polarity, then understanding US split phase power is very easy to truly understand.
 
Deleting comments, sometimes me too. My "I suggest..." would be better "I encourage"....haha. A long ago I understood how to wire 120/240 split phase but I didn't understand it. Later, I was taught the legs were out of phase 180, which I could never make sense of because in waveform theory, they would buck each other, not add up to be 240v. At some later date, I studied electronics and industrial electricity. Those studies include motor, generator, and transformer theory. (stating this to whoever might want to learn more) One of the most helpful things is to get a 120v to 12v transformer with 2 secondaries so a person can experiment/practice with series, parallel, or series with center tap outputs from the transformer. Once a person understands a dual secondary transformer, center tap transformer output, and transformer coil polarity, then understanding US split phase power is very easy to truly understand.
Anyway, the original question was whether they needed a 3 phase inverter or a single phase inverter to run 240V. The correct answer is, because they are going grid tied, they simply need to tie to the grid with whatever is coming into their home. Commercial buildings sometimes have 3 phase power, but most residential houses do not have 3 phase power coming into them, so they don't need a 3 phase inverter.
 
Utility companies, the ones that generate the power, call what we use in our homes Single Phase. It is single phase.
 
Mars is right, USA residential power consists of homes being fed by single phase 240 volt. Then 240 is split at the main panel into two 120 volt circuits, which feed wall outlets and lights. The high draw appliances like clothes dryers, water pumps, hot water heaters, hot tubs and such are typically fed at the full 240 volts via a two pole breaker.
My washing machine and dryer both run on 120V 15 amps outlets. I believe most residential washing machine and dryer sold in US run on 120 v . Correct me if I am wrong.
 
My washing machine and dryer both run on 120V 15 amps outlets. I believe most residential washing machine and dryer sold in US run on 120 v . Correct me if I am wrong.

Most washers and gas dryers use 120V.
A few washers with water heating use 240V.
Most electric dryers have 240V for heating element, 120V timer and motor. They can be wired for 120V heater as well. That works fine, just slower (thermostat would be on longer, so usually not 4x slower.)
Some smaller dryers are 120V resistance heating. Also condensing by air, water, or refrigeration compressor.
 
Utility companies, the ones that generate the power, call what we use in our homes Single Phase. It is single phase.
Correct.
It is 240V single phase. With a center tap neutral midpoint connection bonded to earth. So, each “LEG” of the system is 180Degrees out of synch with the other. Not different phase… same phase, opposit points in the pattern.
Most inverter companies call it “SPLIT PHASE” which is essentially what it is.
 
My washing machine and dryer both run on 120V 15 amps outlets. I believe most residential washing machine and dryer sold in US run on 120 v . Correct me if I am wrong.
Washing machines are typically 120 volts, however, appliances that draw heavier amperage such as clothes dryers, hot water heaters and deep well submersible water pumps operate at 240 volts which in turn requires about 1/2 the current.
My washing machine and dryer both run on 120V 15 amps outlets. I believe most residential washing machine and dryer sold in US run on 120 v . Correct me if I am wrong.
 
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