Do I really want to sell back?

[Sticky1]

With everything I have been reading on this forum and laws in Florida; do I really want to sell back?

As I see it, the hassle with the grid connection , the meager amount of monies back from the power company, the ever lessening sell back rates…. It just doesn’t Make sense to me anymore. The whole purpose (imo) is to zero out the costs of purchasing from the grid. With that being said….a grid tie when there is an issue with the battery backup or generator and operate off the panels and backup. Am I missing something?

 

[OzSolar]

Maybe.....

It really depends on your net metering set up. I have one for one net metering until the end of the month then it carries fwd at wholesale so it's "worth" it for me. When (if?) that goes away like most of Texas then the already iffy math will be much worse.

 

[Mike 134]

I'm in Illinois and for now the buy/sell price of each KWH is the same so net metering pays for me. Don't have the added expense of batteries, use the grid as my "battery" since I can build a credit surplus.

 

[John Frum]

With that being said….a grid tie when there is an issue with the battery backup or generator and operate off the panels and backup.

I think you are saying that you will leverage the ATS(automatic transfer switch) in an all in one or inverter/charger to use the grid or generator as a backup power supply.
The primary power supply would be solar.
Correct?

 

[Solar Guppy]

Florida is full retail net-meter, but they limit the size to 10kw arrays for this tier and there is starting in 2023 a minimum connection charge of $50, currently its $30

So as long as you have solar to supplement your usage and system is size to have $50 bills from grid usage, its still true net metering.

There is no hassle specific to being net-metered in Florida. Your system has to meet NEC2020 codes, meet wind codes for your location and be fully engineered and permitted, regardless if it is connected to the grid or not.

I did it and for 1/3rd the cost of a turn-key system and just pay minimum connection fees.

 

[Checkthisout]

Do batteries instead.

 

[Mattb4]

With everything I have been reading on this forum and laws in Florida; do I really want to sell back?

As I see it, the hassle with the grid connection , the meager amount of monies back from the power company, the ever lessening sell back rates…. It just doesn’t Make sense to me anymore. The whole purpose (imo) is to zero out the costs of purchasing from the grid. With that being said….a grid tie when there is an issue with the battery backup or generator and operate off the panels and backup. Am I missing something?

Yes. You are missing that the grid gives you a near infinite load to maximize solar production. If you make anything from that production it is more than not getting something. Now is that equal to and more than hassle of applying for and getting a interconnect and metering agreement? ? Depends on the hassle.

Most grid provided power comes with it a minimum monthly charge. If the advantages of having the grid as backup exist you will pay that amount even if you are producing all your loads needs via PV. You will not zero out. If you can sell at even a minuscule rate or receive in kind power back you are gaining something.

I personally prefer my arrangement of having the grid and assisting it with my off grid AIO. PV thus reduces some of my consumption, provides emergency backup and the grid handles things when the off grid setup proves inadequate.

Your millage may vary.

 

[James Showalter]

The era of investing in a "sell to the grid scheme" is coming to an end.

Batteries and the improving controllers for them will make it possible to affordably make your own net metering

 

[Solar Guppy]

Do batteries instead.

In Florida if you have grid available, you are required to be connected which now comes with a minimum billing charge, Duke energy will be $50 starting Jan 2023.

Having batteries is a payback of never, if you have them it is for backup to grid outages

 

[Solar Guppy]

The era of investing in a "sell to the grid scheme" is coming to an end

It was never a sustainable model, there are significant costs to support the grid and the baseline cost should be born by all that use it equally. If you have those with means getting full retail to sell back and zero bills for energy generation, the remaining people without solar are funding the true costs.

 

[Hedges]

People without solar are funding the true cost of distribution system able to deliver power at times of peak consumption, when only they draw from it. Or less, because people with solar are feeding energy into the grid near the loads, reducing the distribution system capacity and cost that utility must provide.

People with solar backfeed the grid during times of highest consumption (mid afternoon, the Duck's Back.)
Even if they do draw power later in the evening (Duck's Head), that consumption is lower that it would be at the Elephant's Back, what grid consumption looks like mid afternoon without rooftop solar. But being astute, informed, consumers, they avoid drawing power during peak time of use when their rates are highest.

People with solar primarily draw power from the grid off-peak and at night, when it is under-utilized and rates are lower. In doing so they help subsidize the grid, making it more affordable for poor people without solar.

Florida is full retail net-meter, but they limit the size to 10kw arrays for this tier and there is starting in 2023 a minimum connection charge of $50, currently its $30

So as long as you have solar to supplement your usage and system is size to have $50 bills from grid usage, its still true net metering.

If OP chooses not to do net metering, rather zero-export, does he have to pay the same $30 increasing to $50 charge?
$600/year over a decade is $6000, enough to buy about 15kWh of server-rack batteries.

 

[Mattb4]

Just a hunch on my part but I expect those that are doing zero export are operating without an interconnect agreement with their utility company. Otherwise they would take advantage of any amount of offset for uploading power beyond their load needs.

Arguments about how much the utility company should pay for uploaded power becomes a function of who benefits from the arrangement and also the hand of government. Market forces and subsidies. Strange relationship at times. For instance I just got in a 500ft spool of 10awg wire from Amazon for $155 tax included free shipping. I buy it with a credit card that gives me 3% back thanks to all the people that run credit balances so that the CC company can afford to give me this break. Free shipping is provided by the urban folks that offset package delivery costs to my remote location (I looked up the shipping cost for 20#s the wire weighs and it would be a cost to me of ~$40).

So as an individual in regards to all the seen and unseen items that result in what I pay for electricity. I am glad in my rural remote location it is remarkably cheap. Thanks to all you that make it possible. I may be a leach but I am grateful one.

 

[629658]

I'm in Illinois and for now the buy/sell price of each KWH is the same so net metering pays for me. Don't have the added expense of batteries, use the grid as my "battery" since I can build a credit surplus.

Take a look at the Illinois Storage Incentives starting in Jan. Pretty substantial. Stay away from the “smart inverter” incentives as they reset your net metering agreements but the storage incentives look pretty good.

 

[629658]

Ultimately, with a feature rich AIO you can utilize many strategies depending on your local net metering rates and operate to your advantage in any environment. Currently we kill it with TOU. We program our inverter to go on grid at our daily lowest TOU rates. We fill our batteries with cheap power. During PV production we grid sell at much higher TOU rates. This often gives us a 20-25% efficiency increase. Obviously we have a great net metering agreement. However if that comes to an end then we will then switch to holding all our production on site in storage for our own use. Win win

 

[Hedges]

Assuming you don't (aren't allowed to) fill batteries from grid and later sell power to grid from batteries,
given the time of use rates I see, optimum return could be to charge batteries from PV during off-peak, and export to grid from batteries (and whatever PV production) during peak times.

Years ago, peak TOU rates were fairly well aligned with PV (Noon to 6:00 PM), but is now later in the day.

Batteries, I think you can get federal tax credits only if system charges them exclusively from PV (or other renewables.)

Laws, rules, rates, equipment prices change with time, so our optimizations and tradeoffs change.

 

[Leeds]

There's no guarantee that you'll be "allowed" to sell back 20 or 30 years from now.

I'd think it would be best to design it to pay for itself as soon as possible without relying on selling any back.

If you get that right you can consider it future-legislation-disappointment proof by slightly under paneling for your needs.

 

[MarkSolar]

I'm in Illinois and for now the buy/sell price of each KWH is the same so net metering pays for me. Don't have the added expense of batteries, use the grid as my "battery" since I can build a credit surplus.

I'm never sure if people are including non-energy costs when they say net metering is 1:1. We're also in Chicago area and have net metering with ComEd and we pay a total of about 12.5cents/kWh, which is about half for the energy and half for the other delivery and administrative charges. So I always say we have net metering that pays half the grid cost because we get about 6cents for every kWh we send back to the grid.

There are other factors in making the battery decision. In a cold climate the battery efficiency goes way down at night, so they have to be somewhere that's at least warm. Our panels are by our barn, nowhere near anyplace to keep them warm. And the time when we need batteries the most is on cold winter nights to keep water thawed for the livestock. That happens to be the time when batteries are at their worst unless they're kept warm. So for us, the cost to configure some small heated area in the barn, and then trench cables to get there, didn't make any economic sense. If we were in a warm climate I would have chosen batteries instead of the grid, primarily because of the hassle of working with the utility company and partly because of the uncertainty of net metering in the future.

 

[Hedges]

If you get that right you can consider it future-legislation-disappointment proof by slightly under paneling for your needs.

PV panels are the cheapest part of a system, especially if you have storage (expensive).
I suggest overpaneling.

By my math, PV panels and GT inverters, with support hardware, cost $0.025/kWh (amortized over 20 years.)
Utility rates $0.25 to $0.50/kWh.

I'd rather over-panel a bit and waste $0.025, than underpanel and have to pay $0.25
I'd have to over-panel to 10x my consumption before savings dropped to zero.

Of course, panels produce power following a curve (shape of which you can alter by not having just one orientation.)
Consumption tends to spike, e.g. A/C cycling on and off. Try to reshape consumption curve to fit production.

 

[pullin_gs]

In Florida if you have grid available, you are required to be connected which now comes with a minimum billing charge, Duke energy will be $50 starting Jan 2023.

Having batteries is a payback of never, if you have them it is for backup to grid outages

I have 6 circuits "off-grid" (I use a 6-circuit transfer switch) right now. No net metering.
Principle requirement is grid independence and power backup.
My upfront cost is very low.
Payback is 8 years based on Kwh production.....Duke powerbill will always be more than $50, so wont hit "minimum" billing.
Used 2KW solar panels ($600)
16Kwh of used "fresh 2021" EV lithium ion ($1700)
Transfer switch ($200)
MMPT controllers ($235)
Inverter ($383)
Cabinet, fabrication&fittings (350)
Wire, termials ($150)
Power management, breakers, arresters, fusing, cutoff switches ($300)
Panel mount fabrication costs ($300)
Total cost $4000 (before any applicable tax credit)

 

[sunsurfer]

You WILL own nothing and like it. They have told you their plans long term. Also, I hope you all like eating bugs, they have also said that is your future menu. This is not a joke. THIS is what is coming.

 

[Hedges]

The bugs will eat you.

I was served crickets in Japan. I liked them - brown sugar and soy sauce.
Otherwise, I prefer my bugs processed through fresh trout. Or frogs.

 

[curiouscarbon]

You WILL own nothing and like it. They have told you their plans long term. Also, I hope you all like eating bugs, they have also said that is your future menu. This is not a joke. THIS is what is coming.

 

[curiouscarbon]

posing solar install projects as paying oneself back is an exercise that interests me. oneself can define the value of energy delivered at a given time. power company can define cost per kilowatt hour for a given time of day and season? so can oneself. payback period is based on a self defined metric, and there is no need to copy metrics used by others provided it fits the budget.

the sun does not play politics and does not do any rate hikes as far as i have heard. pretty good track record.

some places have clouds and snow etc which can block the sunshine from time to time.

dealing with the sun has generally always been more reliable than dealing with organizations run by humans which sell a service of electricity generation

it just comes up every morning and goes down each evening. that deal is clear and simple.

good luck with your build! ?️

 

[Alkaline]

The era of investing in a "sell to the grid scheme" is coming to an end.

Batteries and the improving controllers for them will make it possible to affordably make your own net metering

this was never an erra, what a scam it was from the begging anyone thinking a utility business wants to turn its own customers into competitors is a not very smart.

 

[42OhmsPA]

You WILL own nothing and like it. They have told you their plans long term. Also, I hope you all like eating bugs, they have also said that is your future menu. This is not a joke. THIS is what is coming.

It was actually "you'll own nothing and you'll be happy about" by Klaus Schwab at the WEF.
But, yea tptb plans are f'd.