Do I(we) need UL1741?

[Roswell Bob]

I am buying a small inverter to run TV and Refer off of 12v. I am thinking that I should get UL1741 listed inverter. I am off grid and aware that I have not paid enough attention to NEC and so forth. Is UL1741 listed inverter what I want?

I would entertain suggestions for 12v/1kW pure sine inverter with 200% overload capability if you have anything.

 

[RCinFLA]

If you are off grid UL1741 does not have much meaning to your system. It is specifications for connecting an inverter running in parallel with grid. Primarily rules for detecting when grid goes down so your inverter does not push power to grid, possibly energizing a downed power line.

 

[Roswell Bob]

If you are off grid UL1741 does not have much meaning to your system. It is specifications for connecting an inverter running in parallel with grid. Primarily rules for detecting when grid goes down so your inverter does not push power to grid, possibly energizing a downed power line.

Ok, thank you.

 

[chrisski]

The standard for what you’re asking is UL 458. What makes this a standard for 12 volt and 24 volt, I really don’t understand. I googled the standard, but its a pay to see. Very expensive as in hundreds of dollars. There are many, many inverters that are not UL-458 compliant. There are also You Tube videos of inverters bursting into flames when operating at their :rated” power.

I do have three inverters, all UL 458 compliant. Why? Even though I don’t truly understand the convention, there are 300k+ electical fires a year in the US, so I am as safe as I can. Two of my inverters are SAMLEX’s. Each of these has a cheaper non- UL 458 compliant available, but opted to go with it.

When building a 12 volt system, you’re in the Wild West and get to do what you want. To put it into words, if you’re not using a UL 458 inverter, you need to be really careful in approaching max rating and especially if using it for extended times. If you hav a 2000 watt heap inverter and run a 100 watt TV off it, not an issue. If you expect it to run your 1200 watt microwave which draws closer to 2k watts, expect it at best to not work, and at worst to be dangerous.

 

[Roswell Bob]

The standard for what you’re asking is UL 458. What makes this a standard for 12 volt and 24 volt, I really don’t understand. I googled the standard, but its a pay to see. Very expensive as in hundreds of dollars. There are many, many inverters that are not UL-458 compliant. There are also You Tube videos of inverters bursting into flames when operating at their :rated” power.

I do have three inverters, all UL 458 compliant. Why? Even though I don’t truly understand the convention, there are 300k+ electical fires a year in the US, so I am as safe as I can. Two of my inverters are SAMLEX’s. Each of these has a cheaper non- UL 458 compliant available, but opted to go with it.

When building a 12 volt system, you’re in the Wild West and get to do what you want. To put it into words, if you’re not using a UL 458 inverter, you need to be really careful in approaching max rating and especially if using it for extended times. If you hav a 2000 watt heap inverter and run a 100 watt TV off it, not an issue. If you expect it to run your 1200 watt microwave which draws closer to 2k watts, expect it at best to not work, and at worst to be dangerous.

thank you for detailed reply. I will look for the UL458 compliance. I had a small concrete bunker poured in one corner of the basement. I wasn;t quite sure why I had it done, but it is a good place for the solar gear and batteries.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I originally posted that and deleted it based on the rating of some of the Victron units.

UL458 is for inverters in RVs and Boats. It doesn't apply to residential.

The Magnum MS4024PAE is UL1741, which is more appropriate to a residential installation, so if you care about UL at all, you probably want to look for UL1741.

IMHO, the primary purpose of UL is for insurance compliance.

 

[Tecnodave]

To be clear

UL 1741SA is required for grid connected

UL1741 is required in any building regulated by the building code (off grid or grid assisted)

UL 458 is required for a boat, RV, (not connected to the grid), airplane, train, etc.

It is totally acceptable to use a UL1741 listed inverter in a vehicle (any environment that a UL 458 listing is required)

Magnasine inverters are listed to UL 1741 but are certified to use in ambulances and fire trucks upon review by Magnum energy

UL1741 is a much higher standard than UL458

You are in violation of the NEC using a UL458 inverter in a building and your insurance company knows that. If you have a fire caused by a fault in any building using a UL458 inverter you have just handed your insurance company a “get out of jail card” They have absolutely no obligation to pay out.

 

[Tecnodave]

If you are off grid UL1741 does not have much meaning to your system. It is specifications for connecting an inverter running in parallel with grid. Primarily rules for detecting when grid goes down so your inverter does not push power to grid, possibly energizing a downed power line.

UL 1741 Is not the approiate category for grid connect. , That would be UL1741 SA

 

[Roswell Bob]

Ok, thank you. Yea, I figured a bank would look for a reason to deny claim. House has no mortgage, so I don't have a bank on my side either

 

[robby]

To be clear

UL 1741SA is required for grid connected

UL1741 is required in any building regulated by the building code (off grid or grid assisted)

UL 458 is required for a boat, RV, (not connected to the grid), airplane, train, etc.

It is totally acceptable to use a UL1741 listed inverter in a vehicle (any environment that a UL 458 listing is required)

Magnasine inverters are listed to UL 1741 but are certified to use in ambulances and fire trucks upon review by Magnum energy

UL1741 is a much higher standard than UL458

You are in violation of the NEC using a UL458 inverter in a building and your insurance company knows that. If you have a fire caused by a fault in any building using a UL458 inverter you have just handed your insurance company a “get out of jail card” They have absolutely no obligation to pay out.

It seems like you and me are the only ones that keep on warning people about House Insurance. Most people in the other threads are just looking for what is cheapest Inverter out of China. I figure you have felt the sting like I have of having them finding some obscure reason to try and wiggle out of paying a claim.

 

[Tecnodave]

I have never had that issue, as a child my family suffered a burn down to the ground, in the dead of winter, in Alaska

We had to kick the chickens out of the coop and survive in that through the winter. Lessons learnt.....My electrics and heatings at least were code or as near as possible. Sometimes really sketchy, but safe as possible under the circumstances.

I have had to hear from customers how unfair the building authority is in red tagging buildings and many pleas to “just patch it up to meet the code“ I will not risk my license because they would not buy the proper equipment to meet the code.

I have used Chinese electrical gear in the past but none of it has given adequate service life. All has failed in less than 1 year with one exception only, that was a Cotek inverter that was listed to UL458 , it gave me 10 years. Designed in Taiwan and built in China. Good enough, it just dies, it did not burn me down.

As a commercial electrician, I have seen many system failures due to cheap components. The American Made Stab-lok and Zinsco electrical panels have burned down 1000’s of homes here in California. The State of California pressured UL to decertify those panels, revoke their UL listing. I still have persons who want me to “fix them” . I have a gallery of pictures of burned down homes that were caused by the failure of these panels. I show them that. I will not even touch those panels, even if they look perfect. Only solution, remove and replace, from the weatherhead to the ground rod!
About $1250.00 What is your family and your life worth?.....responce..... Well I will find someone to do it! ... Not me!

I have been badmouthed for my stance on this..... Too bad, that’s my standard, you know what your life is worth to you.