Do We Need a Control Group?

[Bob B]

I'm hesitant to start another Covid / vaccine related thread, but I didn't want to post in the other thread because it has been corrupted by nothing but hate filled rhetoric.
As soon as this thread gets that way, I will report it myself to a moderator and request that it be closed to further comment.

I just wanted to float an idea I saw in an article today. The idea is that we need a "control group."

In order to assess whether there are long term affects of getting Covid and not being vaccinated ..... or possible long term effects of the vaccine .... it is necessary to have a control group to compare against.
Think of it as if the unvaccinated are the placebo group. A proper study always needs a placebo group .... right?

Maybe we should be thanking those brave unvaccinated people instead of trying to coerce and vilify them .... we need them for a long term control group.

Edit: After the 57th page of this thread .... I have come back to the first post and warn people that there are 3 trolls on this thread. Bradbill, BRB58, and Leo Thomson. ( Edit again .... Added MurphyGuy to the troll list.) There are others that are disruptive, but not full on trolls like these 3.
You will get MUCH more information from this thread .... and a lot less pure BS .... if you just put them on your ignore list when you come across their first post.
Simply click on their avatar to the left of their post and click on ignore.
None of these trolls have posted anything of substance in this thread .... or any other thread I have seen for that matter.

 

[sunshine]

I will report it myself to a moderator and request that it be closed to further comment.

Good idea.
Starting to look like facebook with all these non-solar specific posts!

 

[Johnson]

Sounds like a good idea, in that control group, we could let covid run it's natural cause, so just isolate when you have it and no hospital treatment. That way society can open up and hospitals can get back to some form of normal.

 

[Bob B]

I think that the Omicron variant is showing us very clearly that we are just going to have to get used to a NEW normal. Since Covid has also now infected a lot of animal species .... it is likely that it will jump around between species and keep mutating.

With any luck at all, that new normal will be Covid variants like Omicron, which so far seems that is has a death rate that is very low to almost non existent.
Since that variant is even more transmissible than the delta variant .... and seems to infect the vaccinated quite easily too .... maybe some sort of herd immunity is actually possible with it.

One thing we know for sure is that just as soon as we figure out the Omicron variant ... there is going to be another right behind it. I think it is mutating faster than vaccines can keep up with it .... but MAYBE at the same time becoming less virulent.

I think we need to get back to the normal of not hating our neighbor because they haven't gotten a shot.

 

[Johnson]

There will be new variants and if we want we can quickly produce vaccines for any virus that pops up, not just covid. It only take money and a government willing to invest in those factories (which hopefully would never be used)

BTW, I don't hate any one, my elderly neighbour chose not to get vaccinated and she is a very kind lady. I just ask that if you choose not to take the shot, that you be responsible for your choice and don't burden the healthcare system. However if you or any other random person on-line want to claim you know better then the experts, you should expect push-back from those who do follow the evidence.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Sounds like a good idea, in that control group, we could let covid run it's natural cause, so just isolate when you have it and no hospital treatment. That way society can open up and hospitals can get back to some form of normal.

Dude, that went right over their head...

We have to remember the intellectual capacity of those we mock...

 

[Bob B]

Dude, that went right over their head...

We have to remember the intellectual capacity of those we mock...

So .... one of the primary haters has showed up ..... If you don't have anything of substance to post ... please refrain from posting.

Guess I should have known that an adult conversation was going to be impossible.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I think we need to get back to the normal of not hating our neighbor because they haven't gotten a shot.

My neighbors are big time anti-vax right winger conservative and religious, and I get along with them very well.. shared birthdays, bon fire nights, and helping each other dig ditches and lay concrete.

They know where I stand, I know where they stand.. When you're mixing concrete, moving rocks, or bringing down an 80ft maple that could fall on your house, it really doesn't matter to them or to me.

 

[Bob B]

There will be new variants and if we want we can quickly produce vaccines for any virus that pops up, not just covid. It only take money and a government willing to invest in those factories (which hopefully would never be used)

BTW, I don't hate any one, my elderly neighbour chose not to get vaccinated and she is a very kind lady. I just ask that if you choose not to take the shot, that you be responsible for your choice and don't burden the healthcare system. However if you or any other random person on-line want to claim you know better then the experts, you should expect push-back from those who do follow the evidence.

In my research, I have found several legitimate reasons a person might not want to get vaccinated.

I won't even try to lay them out because it will only give fuel to those who need any excuse to de-legitimize and put down others.

A few more posts like Murphyguy's first post and I will ask the thread to be closed.

 

[Johnson]

Dude, that went right over their head...

We have to remember the intellectual capacity of those we mock...

Some deserve mocking, but I target any mocking to those who deserve that, instead of a group. I have been in a group of devout Christians and only one guy angrily proclaimed that evolution was a hoax. Poor guy got what he deserved, but I was careful not to suggest they were all as uninformed as he was.

 

[MurphyGuy]

So .... one of the primary haters has showed up ..... If you don't have anything of substance to post ... please refrain from posting.

Guess I should have known that an adult conversation was going to be impossible.

I apologize.. I do not have a snowflake mode.

 

[Bob B]

I apologize.. I do not have a snowflake mode.

I'm just asking that hate and condescension not be a part of this thread .... I don't know if that's possible, but seems like its worth a try.

 

[robby]

Good idea.
Starting to look like facebook with all these non-solar specific posts!

Most forums have banned Covid posts and Political post so that there member can get a break from the problems while enjoying the forum.

As for the OP's question, we already have millions of people who got Covid before a vaccine or any form of real treatment was developed. We know that many of the people who got sick enough to require oxygen do have lung damage that is most likely permanent. The unknown scary part about Covid is it's ability to break past the Blood Brain Barrier if the persons viral load gets high. We do not know if the Covid is remaining in the brains of these people and what long term effects that may have. This was actually the number one reason why my wife insisted that we get vaccinated as soon as it was available. She said the unknown effects of this if they do exist will probably not be found out for decades. We will have to study young people who have had severe Covid to see if their brain development changes over time.

 

[Bob B]

Most forums have banned Covid posts and Political post so that there member can get a break from the problems while enjoying the forum.

It's easy to get a break from them by just ignoring them. That's what I'm doing to the other thread that just turned into a mud slinging party.

 

[Johnson]

In my research, I have found several legitimate reasons a person might not want to get vaccinated.

Of course there are good reasons, but sadly conspiracy theorists have not produced any valid reason, which is why I believe you should name those reasons. And let me reiterate, if you choose not to get the shot, please be responsible for that choice and don't burden the healthcare system if you unfortunately do get infected.

 

[squowse]

It's easy to get a break from them by just ignoring them. That's what I'm doing to the other thread that just turned into a mud slinging party.

is there a way to mute these threads?

 

[Bob B]

One big concern I have read about was over the possibility of some infertility effects from the virus .... Covid itself may have a similar side effect.
I read an article that went into great detail on a study that on the surface seemed to show that miscarriage's weren't greatly increased in pregnant women who had gotten the vaccine...... the thing the study ignored, however, was that pregnant women vaccinated in the first trimester actually had an 82% rate of miscarriage.

I didn't save a link to that article, and if you choose to no believe that ... I'm not going to go back and try to find the information ..... I guess what I'm trying to indicate with this thread is that I believe we can't begin to know yet with any certainty that there won't be significant side effects from Covid .... or from the vaccine .... that haven't been fully revealed yet ...... hence, the NEED for a control group.

 

[Bob B]

is there a way to mute these threads?

Define mute.

All you need to do is unwatch it. You will be watching it by default now that you posted.

 

[squowse]

Define mute.

All you need to do is unwatch it. You will be watching it by default now that you posted.

so it doesn't come up in "What's New"

 

[Cdkipp]

I'm just asking that hate and condescension not be a part of this thread .... I don't know if that's possible, but seems like its worth a try.

Okay, Bob but serious question. Don't we have that control group? There is plainly an identifiable group that will not get vaccinated and that have been infected but will not get vaccinated. I am not sure what you are proposing. I do think setting aside the immediate consequences of sickness and death we need to be paying much more attention to the many ways long covid presents, many unknown, in even asymptomatic cases. There is a lot of speculation about possible long-term consequences of the vaccine (I would argue unfounded) but little discussion of the known symptoms of long-term Covid and the expectation that more will be coming.

 

[sunshine]

Define mute.

All you need to do is unwatch it. You will be watching it by default now that you posted.

Yes. I suppose we can....but then we will never know why that member. or even moderator, is never seen around these parts again!

 

[Bob B]

Okay, Bob but serious question. Don't we have that control group? There is plainly an identifiable group that will not get vaccinated and that have been infected but will not get vaccinated. I am not sure what you are proposing. I do think setting aside the immediate consequences of sickness and death we need to be paying much more attention to the many ways long covid presents, many unknown, in even asymptomatic cases. There is a lot of speculation about possible long-term consequences of the vaccine (I would argue unfounded) but little discussion of the known symptoms of long-term Covid and the expectation that more will be coming.

We DO have that control group .... but it seems to me that with the new variants there is nowhere near as much need to put so much pressure on that group to fall in line. These variants seem to infect the vaccinated just as well.
It just seems like so many feel the need to vilify that group and pressure them into something that may be unnecessary for them ..... maybe they already have natural immunity that is arguable better than the vaccine .... and if we want to do long term studies about Covid and the vaccine, we need that group.

We are getting a new variant every couple of weeks now and it just isn't possible to keep up with each one and whether or not natural immunity or the vaccine is more effective against those new variants.

That is one reason I think things like Fluvoxamine are so interesting. I'm not sure the benefit of it varies that much based on the variant.
Again, don't want to get into an extended argument about Fluvoxamine .... it is just one example of a medicine with a LONG track record.

 

[Cdkipp]

We DO have that control group .... but it seems to me that with the new variants there is nowhere near as much need to put so much pressure on that group to fall in line. These variants seem to infect the vaccinated just as well.
It just seems like so many feel the need to vilify that group and pressure them into something that may be unnecessary for them ..... maybe they already have natural immunity that is arguable better than the vaccine .... and if we want to do long term studies about Covid and the vaccine, we need that group.

We are getting a new variant every couple of weeks now and it just isn't possible to keep up with each one and whether or not natural immunity or the vaccine is more effective against those new variants.

That is one reason I think things like Fluvoxamine are so interesting. I'm not sure the benefit of it varies that much based on the variant.
Again, don't want to get into an extended argument about Fluvoxamine .... it is just one example of a medicine with a LONG track record.

I agree that Fluvoxamine looks great. I think it is too early to say what Omicron will or won't do as you know. Will the vaccine hold against serious disease for Omicron? Will Omicron be a light disease and provide cross-immunity against Delta? Will Delta outcompete Omicron?

I hear the pharma companies talking about new vaccines but I also am hearing the immunologists saying we should stick with the existing vaccine against the original Covid as long as possible since it will provide a broader base of immunity. Who knows? We will find out.

I think where we differ is that I accept the ambiguities but think we should stick with the worldwide consensus of the scientific community in looking at population-based solutions. An each man for himself approach is doomed.

 

[Bob B]

Just to up the ante one more step .... how should we define unvaccinated?

Now that we know that covid is moving between species and infecting animals .... so we need to vaccinate all of them .... after all, they must have the potential to spread Covid back to us if they got it from us.

The cat is now out of the bag ... pun intended.

I actually woke up the other night having a weird dream that my daughter's cat had infected us with Covid. Better not let it out to roam around and get Covid from the neighbor's cat ...and on and on .... how extensive is the unvaccinated risk?

Is unvaccinated in a year going to mean we didn't get that 3rd booster shot?

I think we just need to pay more attention to how we are going to treat it because we are all going to get it unless we live on a deserted island ... and then maybe a fish infects us.

 

[Bob B]

If it's at all possible, I'd like to have this thread be a more ..... think outside the box .... kind of thread. No bad ideas that we need to rebuff by doing an internet search that contradicts an idea .... lets see if we can THINK outside the box.

Do you have an idea that brings a new twist to things?