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Does it make financial sense to build a Off-Grid 30kWh battery solar system for EV charging only?

erix123

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HI All,

I am new here and solar,

Need help to understand if it makes financial sense to build a Off-Grid 30kWh battery roof top solar system for EV charging only, Tesla Model Y?

With a full 30kWh battery, I can charge about 30% which my daily driving usage.
I am in CA with PGE and EV charge at night off peak is $0.25 per kw, My monthly average cost is $120, $1440 a year.

The system with 30kWh battery and 6000w solar panels is about $17000, after 30% tax credit it may be $12000.

So about 10 years to break even. However, don't know will the battery last that long.

Should I do solar or save my money keep using PGE off peak charging?
 
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LFP should last 10 years if not drained below 20% daily.
2000 cycles is what? 5.5 years... so if you keep from draining below 20% and dont hit 100% SOC daily, thw bank should stay above 80% capacity for 10 years. If you add 20% capacity, and use the bank at 30kWh with a 36kWh bank, you can still use the 30kWh daily usage, and it will extend the life before cells drop to 80% ability.
 
Consider signing up for NEM 2.0 with PG&E, prior to April 14th.
Then install a 6kW or so GT PV system. Should cost about $6000 in parts, DIY the labor.
That will produce 30 kWh/day for $0.025/kWh over the next 20 years.
Break-even in 2 years.
 
Consider signing up for NEM 2.0 with PG&E, prior to April 14th.
Then install a 6kW or so GT PV system. Should cost about $6000 in parts, DIY the labor.
That will produce 30 kWh/day for $0.025/kWh over the next 20 years.
Break-even in 2 years.
I don't quite understand this concept. Can you help to explain with more details?
Do you mean $0.25/kWh that I can sell back to PGE? or $0.025/kWh?

$0.25/kWh is fixed or vary in different city?
 
"charge at night off peak is $0.25 per kw[h]" is your cost to buy from PG&E

If you skip the batteries and install grid tied PV system (e.g. Enphase microinverters, or Sunny Boy string inverters which, for rooftop PV panels, will require "Rapid Shutdown"), hardware cost should be about $1/W.
Backfeed the grid, "Net Metering" and you get 1:1 credit. (most production will be off-peak, same rate as your night time charging.)
Your export will be credited at $0.25/kWh, and your consumption charged the same.
Fee (or minimum charge?) $12/month; think of it as leasing a battery.
Average 6 hours effective sun per day. Hardware cost amortized over 20 years, ignoring free DIY labor and time-value of money, works out to $0.025 per kWh. If inverters need replacement during that time, total about $0.03 per kWh.

Roll your own power is 1/10th the cost of rates today. In just two years, compared to $0.25/kWh, you got the amount of power you would have bought from the grid.

After April 14th, the credit would no longer be 1:1, more like $0.10 credit to export $1.00 worth of power. So get paperwork filed with PG&E before then.

You can add battery later, if you would like backup during grid failures. In 20 years you'll probably need to when pushed onto NEM 3.0, because then storing power in batteries will be a better deal than the export credit.
 
Thank you. I do have more questions based on what you said.
After April 14th, the credit would no longer be 1:1, more like $0.10 credit to export $1.00 worth of power. So get paperwork filed with PG&E before then.
DIY install will qualify? I saw that it need to submit a contract with professional installer?

You can add battery later, if you would like backup during grid failures. In 20 years you'll probably need to when pushed onto NEM 3.0, because then storing power in batteries will be a better deal than the export credit.
I don't get this. Do you mean after 20 years I should add a new battery solar system? is it because NEW 3 credit is much less?


Can you also tell me what is that $1/W solar system hardware that you are recommending? what is the best value panels or system in the market now?
 
Other question is how much I should expect if I need a professional installer to install with permit submission, if I purchased my own hardware.
 
Thank you. I do have more questions based on what you said.

DIY install will qualify? I saw that it need to submit a contract with professional installer?

I think so. I'm wondering the same things, probably just not all links/documents complete and correct. I just had service started in my name last weekend (for a new property) and need to get in a reservation.
I previously put in a request for service upgrade (asking if I can have that 3-phase I see on a pole 200' away!)

I don't get this. Do you mean after 20 years I should add a new battery solar system? is it because NEW 3 credit is much less?

Exactly. Your NEM 2.0 installation should be grandfathered for 20 years (or whatever period they later decide to shorten it to.)
I was due to get my NEM 1.0 bumped to 2.0 in a couple years, now expect it will be 3.0 instead.

Under 3.0 the credits will be much less, like PG&E's avoided cost of buying a kWh from a power plant far, far away. They won't consider the transmission costs they also avoid. Expect a credit on the order of $0.025/kWh, which is to say nothing much.

Presently, I think you can buy/build a battery for as little as $0.05/kWh (amortized over its claimed cycle life.) Add to that cost of battery inverter, unless you select a hybrid. You might want a batteries-optional hybrid, have batteryless backup for now, with battery later.

I'm using Sunny Boy and Sunny Island. Want to put TriPower on the new house.
Schneider is another heavy iron component system.
SolArk is a popular all-in-one.
There are cheaper imports, but you have to select something on CEC's list.
SMA has a hybrid coming here real soon, but it will use expensive high-voltage batteries. Haven't heard yet if a BMS for DIY is available.

Can you also tell me what is that $1/W solar system hardware that you are recommending? what is the best value panels or system in the market now?

Quality, something that won't decay rapidly. They are not all the same.


SanTan Solar is a liquidator people here are happy with. Some overstock new panels left over from big jobs, also used panels taken down. If a brand that has withstood the test of time, can be a great deal.

Recently, PV has been popular. Availability and price may get better in the next year or so. I think I read once you reserve net metering you have a couple years to do the install.

I like SMA Sunny Boy and top name panels. Fronius should be similar quality and performance. I would not use SolarEdge based on failure stories. I use Unirac, and Iron Ridge is another. Your roof mount type will depend on what kind of shingles to work around. Ground mount is more expensive but could be better. Permits tend to be expedited for roof mount. Roof mount requires something like Tigo RSD if you use a string inverter.

Other question is how much I should expect if I need a professional installer to install with permit submission, if I purchased my own hardware.

Don't expect to find any good installer to put in what you purchased elsewhere. They tend to specialize in what they know, and sell hardware as part of their package.

I've read somewhere around $2.75/W is average installed price now. I had figured it was $3 to $4/W.
In Australia, for some reason, people can get a system installed, hardware and labor, for just $1/W.

If you want battery backup, plan for it up front. Either a hybrid, or an AC coupled inverter that plays nice with battery inverters. UL-1741-SA (Rule 21) ought to do it, but some people coupling Enphase to SolArk are having issues. Others have it working.

Except for climbing on the roof and making waterproof penetrations, I think DIY is pretty easy. But then I have extensive experience. Vendors like Alt Energy Store will design and sell a complete package. I bought my first bundle from Real Goods, which Alt E now owns.

 
Looks like those kits run about $1.5/W, with PV panels $0.79/W
I see some new ones at SanTan for $0.45/W, would get a package down around $1.15/W

Various used panels, some reported 80% of rated wattage (considerably degraded) but $0.16/W. Mounting hardware and labor starts to be a higher percentage.
If buying used panels, I'd favor young ones.
 
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HI All,

I am new here and solar,

Need help to understand if it makes financial sense to build a Off-Grid 30kWh battery roof top solar system for EV charging only, Tesla Model Y?

With a full 30kWh battery, I can charge about 30% which my daily driving usage.
I am in CA with PGE and EV charge at night off peak is $0.25 per kw, My monthly average cost is $120, $1440 a year.

The system with 30kWh battery and 6000w solar panels is about $17000, after 30% tax credit it may be $12000.

So about 10 years to break even. However, don't know will the battery last that long.

Should I do solar or save my money keep using PGE off peak charging?
Can you wire in a dryer or other appliances to use on the weekends or times you are not charging your car? Would increase the value of your system.
 
Hedges is pointing you in a good direction if you've got the electrical experience for the install.

Your city or building inspection department is going to be the deciding factor on DIY. I'm in California, in the Central Valley, my DIY install was permitted and approved. All done legit.
Power company is PGE.

Ask about "owner builder" and solar when contacting the city. Mine emailed over some forms. I paid to have the plans drawn up. A couple minor revisions and it's was easy.

Move quickly if you want to go that route, you need to do paperwork by mid April to get in in NEM 2, NEM 3 is a a huge change.
 
I think your best option for payback is grid tied, variable rate charging, push sun to the grid during the day, charge the car overnight off the grid when the rates are half as much.
 
That was the old time of use schedule. Now, midnight to 3:00 PM are all off-peak. So most power produced from PV will be credited 1:1, only a little bit of production after 3:00 (semi-peak) or after 4:00 PM (peak).

It was nice while it lasted, getting as many as 3 kWh back for 1 kWh produced. But the rates varied over day of the week as well. Overall, I figure I got 1.5 kW for each 1 kWh produced.

On the bright side, what I put in for $8/W ($4/W after rebate) was maybe break-even with grid back then. At today's prices, until NEM 3.0 comes along, DIY solar is 1/10th the cost of grid power. Under NEM 3.0 it may be around parity.
 
Thanks again Hedges and all.
My plan cannot be more clear without your helps.

Do you think I should apply for NEM 2.0 as self install first and wait for Solar hardware price drop when NEM 3.0 release since I will have 3 years to install it? Can PGE NEM 2.0 plan be changed after I submitted?
 
Do apply for NEM 2.0
Confirm for yourself the deadline to complete.
I would imagine some equipment substitutions can be made.
You'll probably see better prices later this year. Inverters might come down a few $hundred (I look at eBay postings).
Prices ran up with Ukraine, gas prices, tariffs.
PV panel array needs to be designed within voltage (temperature adjusted) and and current limits of the inverter. Avoid the impulse to buy something without having system design. But I know the math well enough to jump when I see a deal.
See if local installers have new leftovers from large jobs. An inverter like Sunny Boy has 3 MPPT inputs, so each can be a different model panel and different length string; this allows a bit of mix and match.
If a system costs $1.50 not $1.00/W, I think that means 3 years to get your money back rather than 2 years. So waiting a year for bargains doesn't save anything? Consider also 30% federal credit, which only offsets taxes you otherwise owe.
I think batteries get a credit as well, but only if 100% of all power used to charge them comes from PV not from grid.
 
I could find someone to install everything with permit, NEM2 and engineering works for $1/w. Do you think this is reasonable?
With this option, I can shop for better panels and inverter and other materials $1-$1.5/w.

Hopefully make it to $2/w the whole thing
 
Perhaps. Difficulty is knowing quality of workmanship, just like any other contracting.
$1 for labor I think is less than typical cost & markup for companies in the industry. They probably also get materials cheaper.
You need to consider damage, broken panels.
Any support would be on you.

A course I took in construction, heard that an insulation crew can do the job for less than we would pay buying materials alone.

If your time frame is long enough, whether $2 or $4 per watt you'll come out ahead of utility rates (given NEM 2.0)
But I believe in DIY, understanding the system and everything in it. I can fix it myself, or expand it or add battery.
 
Now I am considering do it ground mounted in my back yard so I don't have to touch the roof.

What software I can create my plan or is there a plan template I can used for permit application and NEM2 application.

Thanks in advance.
 
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