diy solar

diy solar

Does Solar Pay for Itself? Is it worth it?

Thanks everyone for the inputs.

You are right - there definitely are risks.

The deal outline has some protections, but of course you can't protect against everything.

The project is not intended to be a scam for either of us, but it is good to know about the historical problem that affects how the IRS will view it.

I guess in general I am trying to understand how this is really any different than companies that do:
- solar installs on homes
- retain ownership
- sell the power to you
- take the tax breaks
- etc

I have heard a little bit about the solar trailer project and will do some more reading on the subject. That was really a scam from the start though AFAIK.
 
You don't want to own it. Let them own it and take the risks and rewards.
Instead, counter with an offer to build it for a fee. You want your payment up front. If you can't get that, walk away.
 
My former employer was salivating over supplying power to bit coin miners, they wanted our firm to build the plants and they would buy the power, sounded good except that the finances of these firms were sketchy. These power plants were not that portable so if the bit coiner or the free supplier of natural gas went away, we had dead power plant sitting in a field.
 
Now that I've had my system installed for a year, I figure I can actually contribute to this thread.

My loan total was $29,582 for an 11kW system with a Sol-Ark 12k, with that I got a $8875 tax credit for a total of $20,707. I have also been tracking $/kWh and any price changes month-to-month, and based on PV harvested, multiplied by the $/kWh, I'm on track for a 4 year payoff at the current electricity rate. If the rate continues to go up, which it will, I will be even better.

This price didn't include any batteries though, I consider that more of a hobby, and is just a bonus to have power when everyone else doesn't.
 
My cost above doesn't include any tax incentives because I feel they hide the true cost and the real number of money you need to shell out up front is more important to know than the more convoluted impact of different states and fed tax structures.

I installed my entire system myself. So that's a raw materials number. 105kWh of batteries, 15kW of panels.
 
Imagine if you could pay for your electric for the next 15-20 years now, and know it would be still available to you in 15-20 years. Now look at what your electric will cost you as rates climb over the next 15-20 years. Add to that that your investment should pay for itself before those 15-20 years get there. AND, the value in knowing you will have electric.

It's worth it.
 
I don't figure the tax credit when comparing either because it can be claimed with any battery.
 
We wanted a solar/battery system for our homestead since 2001, but it just didn't work at that time for us. The problem was the cost of the utility was so low, and the cost of the solar/batteries so high we just couldn't make it work, espeically the lead-acid batteries. This changed for us about 2020 with the new AIO offerings, LiFePO4 batteries, great sources of information (Will's videos and this forum with all the support from very knowledgable members)
We took the plunge in Jan 2021 and been growing the system in steps since then, always in scale with what we could invest without borrowing, and what we could install/build on our own. The solar and batteries are like a huge UPS that provides all our needs for our business and our home next door, powers our well water, keeps our heat on, ensures the three freezers and two fridges are never off-line. The idea of payback came up and we looked at the difference in utility bills, but also we tried to compare to other types of security we have: what is the payback on our auto insurance or the business insurance? What is the payback on the fire suppression system for the business equipment? It is not easily calculated since you would need to know what the loss would have been if you didn't have it, an "un-knowable" thing. There is certainly some financial benefits to lower utility bills, but really for us the main payback is: Peace of mind.
 
OffGridForGood said:
We wanted a solar/battery system for our homestead since 2001, but it just didn't work at that time for us. The problem was the cost of the utility was so low, and the cost of the solar/batteries so high we just couldn't make it work, espeically the lead-acid batteries. This changed for us about 2020 with the new AIO offerings, LiFePO4 batteries, great sources of information (Will's videos and this forum with all the support from very knowledgable members)
We took the plunge in Jan 2021 and been growing the system in steps since then, always in scale with what we could invest without borrowing, and what we could install/build on our own. The solar and batteries are like a huge UPS that provides all our needs for our business and our home next door, powers our well water, keeps our heat on, ensures the three freezers and two fridges are never off-line. The idea of payback came up and we looked at the difference in utility bills, but also we tried to compare to other types of security we have: what is the payback on our auto insurance or the business insurance? What is the payback on the fire suppression system for the business equipment? It is not easily calculated since you would need to know what the loss would have been if you didn't have it, an "un-knowable" thing. There is certainly some financial benefits to lower utility bills, but really for us the main payback is: Peace of mind.
Click to expand...
Very well stated. I concur!
 
LiFePO4 and expansion of 48V systems have really opened up more opportunities and cost savings.

We need to continue going higher in voltage and there will be eventual breakthroughs moving batteries closer to capacitors.

I would love to see 96VDC/144VDC systems. Yes there are safety concerns as you go up, but we have 220VAC in buildings now and we've made it work.
 
Nominally 360V ~ 400V systems are readily available, just not as cheap.
SMA has residential and commercial 3-phase hybrids and battery inverters (respectively) in Europe.

They have "Sunny Boy Storage" battery inverter in the US (requires separate transfer switch and auto-transformer) and are shortly introducing a split-phase hybrid.

The BYD battery for it is about 2x the price of server rack batteries. Two to four battery modules stack (series connected) for a range of voltage and up to 32 kWh of storage.

I'm looking forward to seeing how capable the hybrid is. (SBS has wimpy 9kW surge). Hybrid hits the same wattage as their grid-tie inverters, but goes up to 11.4kW. Batteries optional, so I'll be considering it for planned grid-tie systems.

(Basically the same features as the SolArk, MPP, EG, or whatever stuff you guys are enamored of, but from my favorite vendor, so I'm excited even if you may think it is just "me too".)
 
My 3.15Kw 14 panel system fitted in 2010 has more than paid for itself as (in the UK) I am on the original FITS payment scheme and now am getting over 70p a Kw. So far the system has cost £13,020 to install - was more expensive in those days - the German made "Scholtze" panels fitted were really pricey then. The only expense that has just occurred is forking out for another inverter (£370). I have, so far, received £19,920 from the FITS and have had the benefit of all the "free" daytime power - even bought a Hybrid plug in car a couple of years back and that's usually a freebie to charge in the summer. The worst year was 2017 with 2745Kw and the best was 2022 with 3081Kw!
 
HarryN said:
Thanks everyone for the inputs.

You are right - there definitely are risks.

The deal outline has some protections, but of course you can't protect against everything.

The project is not intended to be a scam for either of us, but it is good to know about the historical problem that affects how the IRS will view it.

I guess in general I am trying to understand how this is really any different than companies that do:
- solar installs on homes
- retain ownership
- sell the power to you
- take the tax breaks
- etc

I have heard a little bit about the solar trailer project and will do some more reading on the subject. That was really a scam from the start though AFAIK.
Click to expand...
Many leasing companies already out there. How do you evaluate their ability and willingness to pay? What do you do if they don't?
 
Hedges said:
I'm looking forward to seeing how capable the hybrid is. (SBS has wimpy 9kW surge). Hybrid hits the same wattage as their grid-tie inverters, but goes up to 11.4kW. Batteries optional, so I'll be considering it for planned grid-tie systems.

(Basically the same features as the SolArk, MPP, EG, or whatever stuff you guys are enamored of, but from my favorite vendor, so I'm excited even if you may think it is just "me too".)
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say "enamored" I would say "entry level" stuff.
In the beginning of this solar journey I didn't know enough about each make and model Inverter to make an informed decision. A low cost model that Mr. Prowse tested in a YT video seemed like a low risk place to start. I am happy with the outcome for now, and fully expect to replace my inverters with new and better ones during the next few years. Like you, I am looking forward to seeing new offerings, better features lower standby draw, higher PV string voltages, higher ESS voltages etc. and will keep working on all I can learn so the next make and model Inverter decision will be a better informed one. Had to start somewhere.
 
wattmatters said:
I've estimated the leak at its last flow rate was costing about $700/year in extra water charges. When I examined the toilet mechanism, I went and checked the other one and it was doing the same, just not as quickly. Same fix (which I doubt will last). They are old units and will be replaced in due course when we do some renovation work.

Obviously it was a gradually varying amount of water loss over time and likely cost us quite a lot but I can't say exactly how much. Quite possibly $1500 was literally flushed down the toilet and I had no idea.

One of the things which masked it was our water consumption did move up and down with some activity so was expected. 2018-2019 were dry Springs and water use was significantly higher as a result. Gardens were established, we added a new dwelling from Jan 2020 and so on.


Nothing fancy, just our billing data. The bills state what the previous and current bill water accumulation meter readings are, and I just kept a record of them. There is a water meter on the edge of our property which the council guy visits roughly quarterly to take a meter reading. Just a standard old accumulation meter.

View attachment 123104

I would actually like to have my own water meter which can be integrated into my Home Assistant system for automated monitoring. There are various options for that, some are devices which can attach to your existing meter and it reads the magnetic field pulse of the small rotation magnet in the meter, and uses a radio frequency to transmit the data to a base station which integrates into you home's smart system. Others you fit in line to with your existing water mains and they have their own metering methods. Some have quite a bit of smarts built in and can alert to leaks, even remotely or automatically shut the water off.

Now that i have addressed the leaks the imperative is lower, but pretty sure I might have reacted a lot faster had I been looking at data showing significantly water consumption when there should have been none. $1500 would have well and truly covered the cost of a metering device and a plumber.

Live 'n' learn.
Click to expand...
Check in a product called Flume. It is a meter reader realtime and does alerts via email text, and connects to home assistant.
It works great. It is about 150 bucks.
 
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