Does Solar Really Pay Off

[houseofancients]

You might want to fact check that. They have hedges in currency, sure, but Russia has some natural resources to fall back on, and China has huge, marketable stockpiles of finished goods and food supplies. Plus look up the estimates of gold they keep.

Value items such as oil, phosphorus, stable foods - and to a greater degree: gold - can be thought of as ‘fixed value’ items. The USD is deflatable as are other debt-based issued ‘currency.’

We saw this currency insecurity 2008-2011. The rising oil prices of 2007-2009 were popularized by the media as caused by ‘market speculators’ but these media “experts” neglected to recognize the basic economic reality that the price of oil was reflecting inflationary factors: the oil had a somewhat ‘fixed value’ and the dollar price was mostly a result of what buyers were expecting to have to pay in future devalued dollars to ensure their supply of raw crude.

The USD isn’t very strong when GNP is made up of nearly 50% government spending, not internal consumption and exports.

Neither Russia nor China depend on US dollar liquidity. It’s mostly a hedge.

actually , china and russia have been stockpiling gold....

Watch out, America: China and Russia are stockpiling gold

This could be the start of those countries’ attack on the dollar.

www.marketwatch.com

exactly what europe and us have not been doing

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Their stockpiles will be meaningless if the rest of the world won't trade with them.

 

[houseofancients]

Their stockpiles will be meaningless if the rest of the world won't trade with them.

well, india and a few other asian and south american countries are happy to take it..
and dont forget , these 2 countries make up 1/4 of the world population by themselves

 

[Repro]

I think this post has gotten a little off track. Thank you all for your input on your solar, and if you think it pays off!

 

[houseofancients]

I think this post has gotten a little off track. Thank you all for your input on your solar, and if you think it pays off!

you're correct

yes i do think solar always pays off, no matter what solution you choose...
if it's not in a financial way, then it will be in a peace of mind kind of way, or both

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

I think this post has gotten a little off track. Thank you all for your input on your solar, and if you think it pays off!

For most people, I think it's a no-brainer, but circumstance easily changes that.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Their stockpiles will be meaningless if the rest of the world won't trade with them.

The fact remains that a smaller market still can create wealth. If you have something and you sell it for more than your overhead you have more maneuverability than you did before. The lie of globalization revolves around the shroud of necessity whereas profit is achieved in a market of free will no matter the suppression of people. Even with too much control, people resort to bribes for profitability or essential needs.

 

[Ellis Redding]

I don't agree, I think your looking at it from just one side. The USD is what almost every country in the world uses for Trade and most of their reserves. Even Russia and China keep most of their reserves in USD. The reality is that China does not want Ruble's when they sell goods to Russia and Russia does not want RMB for Military equipment it sells to China. Almost 90% of the worlds trade is done in USD. This gives America a very unique position in that global devaluation of the USD hits every country in the pocket and there is no other currency in the world that other countries have confidence in right now.

Unfortunately, I don't agree that this isn't on topic. Shouldn't just put blind faith in 'experts' and we should be trying to use some kind of cost model to estimate future values. Inflation plays a MAJOR role in estimating future value of energy production / offsetting costs. Regardless if you think we are just going to stagflate for a decade like Japan or just about any other rational view, here, Major inflation is coming and the Fed is going to be stealing 10 - 20% of everything you have ever saved, every year, for the next 3 to 5 years.

The Petro States play a major role in this.
You apparently missed the part where Saudi Arabia is basically saying "Let's Go Brandon": https://nypost.com/2022/04/12/saudi-tv-show-mocks-joe-biden-and-kamala-harris/
or the part where they are saying, "Were going to China's Currency now" https://markets.businessinsider.com...saudi-arabia-china-oil-sales-deal-2022-3?op=1

Amazingly, when you do everything you can to get nuclear weapons into the hands of someone's arch enemies, they stop favoring you.

 

[time2roll]

I look forward to solar powering electric vehicles making oil and the petroleum states irrelevant.
That will be the big pay off.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

I don't agree that this isn't on topic.

In essence- considering the purpose of the thread of Op- it is off topic. While the relevance to the economic conditions is an important topic that puts ‘pressure’ on solar being worth it or not, the base ‘local’ effects of solar on our personal economies is the subset of the discussion.
I’m guilty too. I jumped on something that is a burr in my boot. The last 12 years of presidential elections set the stage for today- with or without covid. Covid exacerbated direct inflation potential but our ‘position’ in the world is a product of a lack of the slices of wisdom Americans enjoyed under Eisenhower, Bill Clinton, Reagan, and Kennedy- no matter what side of the aisle of Congress you stand on. I don’t /didn’t agree with 100% of any of those named, but I’m not so ethically and intellectually challenged to admit to the positive results any of them achieved.

On topic- solar is or can be worth it. It should be much more affordable than it is, but government and ‘agenda’ interference created a false market with a severely robust ‘natural price’ and that is inflationary in snd of itself.
In a diy forum, we can leverage this knowledge base to thwart much of the ‘retail’ installation costs and achieve a reasonable ROI time frame to make it worthwhile.

While some ‘go solar’ for altruistic “green” purposes (and that is or should be part of the equation we do for ourselves) and others may do it because grid ain’t nearby, the fact is that if “we” don’t consider the economic costs as a primary concern we potentially harm any “green” visions we might have when our spend enables further environmental loss or supports price gouging profits for individuals/companies with less environmentally favorable habits than ourselves. It’s counterintuitive, but diy solar with its value-added of human creativity can have long lasting zero-negative results over a similar retail system that has greater long-term maintenance overhead with negative environmental consequences. Added bonus: money you don’t spend on ‘labor’ can be spent to the benefit of the economy directly rather than the ‘discounted’ benefits of dollars one might pay for service- the profit mushrooming isn’t diluted with diy.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Unfortunately, I don't agree that this isn't on topic. Shouldn't just put blind faith in 'experts' ...

We shouldn't be putting blind faith in anything, period. Experts are supposed to be experts because they understand the details and minutia related to a given subject matter. They should also be citing relevant references and source data to support their conclusions, whatever those may be. There is no need for blind faith. Science is not based on blind faith. It's based on experimentation, observation, documentation, and peer reviewed/verifiable replication of the results or conclusions.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Science is not based on blind faith. It's based on experimentation, observation, documentation, and peer reviewed/verifiable replication of the results or conclusions.

Actually science is based on formulation of a theory and the rigorously seeing if it fails
At the ‘micro’ level I’ve played with things solar that’s even been said “won’t work” yet actually work quite well. Maybe not mathematically correct nor empirical science, but if something works better consistently it still passes the test of the theory.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Actually science is based on formulation of a theory and the rigorously seeing if it fails
At the ‘micro’ level I’ve played with things solar that’s even been said “won’t work” yet actually work quite well. Maybe not mathematically correct nor empirical science, but if something works better consistently it still passes the test of the theory.

Lol, however you want to word it. And FWIW, more rigorous experimentation and closer attention to detail (controls vs variables) usually exposes the why of differing results, leading to more complete documentation. Maybe you overlooked some detail or maybe the detail does not apply for your circumstance in those cases.

 

[Ellis Redding]

We shouldn't be putting blind faith in anything, period. Experts are supposed to be experts because they understand the details and minutia related to a given subject matter. They should also be citing relevant references and source data to support their conclusions, whatever those may be. There is no need for blind faith. Science is not based on blind faith. It's based on experimentation, observation, documentation, and peer reviewed/verifiable replication of the results or conclusions.

LOL,
You apparently missed the part where 50 - 70% of science findings getting peer-reviewed thumbs up are not reproducible.

This is vaguely the % of scientists are just politicians with labcoats on.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

LOL,
You apparently missed the part where 50 - 70% of science findings getting peer-reviewed thumbs up are not reproducible.

This is vaguely the % of scientists are just politicians with labcoats on.

So you're saying scientific journals are no longer credible? Cool story. If/when it gets that bad, I guess we'll all just have to be scientists in seek of our own knowledge.

Personally, I don't believe it's that bad (yet). Though corruption is bound to seep in as the scale of society grows, and as religion tries to force its stranglehold on control of the masses for political or whatever other agendas its "leaders" want to seek.

I try to keep my eyes open and fingers on the pulse. I also try not to let fear-mongers or over-zealous pessimists distort my perception.

 

[Ellis Redding]

I didn't say it.
LOL, science did... For what it's worth:

Episode 677: The Experiment Experiment

How much of published scientific research is false? Scientists are trying to figure it out.

www.npr.org

Why Less Than 30% of Science Articles are Reproducible | JoVE

Studies show very low reproducibility for articles published in scientific journals, often as low as 10-30%. Here is a partial list: The biotech company Amgen had a team of about 100 scientists trying…

www.jove.com

The sad thing this means that Alex Jones is almost certainly more credible that '1000's of PhD's. I hate the thought, but it's true.
Without science, EVERYTHING is religion. At least the religion of our grandfathers cared whether we lived or died. Now we are just cattle.

 

[houseofancients]

I didn't say it.
LOL, science did... For what it's worth:

Episode 677: The Experiment Experiment

How much of published scientific research is false? Scientists are trying to figure it out.

www.npr.org

Why Less Than 30% of Science Articles are Reproducible | JoVE

Studies show very low reproducibility for articles published in scientific journals, often as low as 10-30%. Here is a partial list: The biotech company Amgen had a team of about 100 scientists trying…

www.jove.com

The sad thing this means that Alex Jones is almost certainly more credible that '1000's of PhD's. I hate the thought, but it's true.
Without science, EVERYTHING is religion. At least the religion of our grandfathers cared whether we lived or died. Now we are just cattle.

so i am in heavy confict to respond, but i removed it.

if one stops believing in science, we're officially lost and nothing i say will change your mind

 

[Ellis Redding]

so i am in heavy confict to respond, but i removed it.

if one stop believing in science, we're officially lost and nothing i say will change your mind

I haven't stopped believing in science.
You are the ones who have stopped believing in science.
The definition of science is that it follows the scientific method and is thus repeatable.
When you keep believing people who don't follow science but call themselves scientists, you are the ones who don't believe in science.

 

[pvdude]

I’m too old to ever receive any ROI, don’t care anyway.
We need water, lights and refrigerators after the hurricanes.
Solar provides!
Sitting here now, it is 88°f, heat pump, pool pumps, well pump are all running off the PV and inverters.

 

[Mike 134]

time to click the "unwatch" button