Does Solar Really Pay Off

[Ellis Redding]

I’m too old to ever receive any ROI, don’t care anyway.
We need water, lights and refrigerators after the hurricanes.
Solar provides!
Sitting here now, it is 88°f, heat pump, pool pumps, well pump are all running off the PV and inverters.

I mean, it's almost impossible to think of a scenario where

Enough. As an engineer with a lot of science education, the idea that that turd is more credible than my peers is an insult and just plain stupid. The OP asked about the personal economics of solar. I suppose you yahoos are going to build your own PV cells? Oh wait SCIENCE did that for you already. This constant put down of formal science and engineering education by the Q-Anon crowd is pissing me the Yuck off

QAnon?! I posted a link to NPR. It's about as left as it gets.
I don't listen to Jones or anything Q-Anon. I just used him as a reference.

But science IS broken. And it IS going to lead to Solar and self-sufficiency being much more valuable than our usual ROIs suggest.

 

[The Dish Doc]

I’m too old to ever receive any ROI, don’t care anyway.
We need water, lights and refrigerators after the hurricanes.
Solar provides!
Sitting here now, it is 88°f, heat pump, pool pumps, well pump are all running off the PV and inverters.

Right on

 

[madmax]

Ouch ! "Oivey" doesn't quite cover it... what a pile of tack-ons.

Oh you don't want to see what mine was in Feb. Supply was around 26c delivery was around 13.5c. and that's without taxes and regulatory fees.

 

[Sanwizard]

I look forward to solar powering electric vehicles making oil and the petroleum states irrelevant.
That will be the big pay off.

There is quite a large list of products made from petroleum. This list is constantly growing as new inventions are created. Here are some of the items which are made from petroleum.

Solvents	Diesel fuel	Motor Oil	Bearing Grease
Ink	Floor Wax	Ballpoint Pens	Football Cleats
Upholstery	Sweaters (that explains the itchy sweater I have at home)	Boats	Insecticides
Bicycle Tires	Sports Car Bodies	Nail Polish	Fishing lures
Dresses	Tires	Golf Bags	Perfumes
Cassettes	Dishwasher parts	Tool Boxes	Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet	Caulking	Petroleum Jelly	Transparent Tape
CD Player (do people still have these?)	Faucet Washers	Antiseptics	Clothesline
Curtains	Food Preservatives	Basketballs	Soap (that explains why soap doesn’t clean oil off your hands)
Vitamin Capsules	Antihistamines	Purses	Shoes
Dashboards	Cortisone	Deodorant	Footballs
Putty	Dyes	Panty Hose	Refrigerant
Percolators	Life Jackets	Rubbing Alcohol	Linings
Skis	TV Cabinets	Shag Rugs	Electrician’s Tape
Tool Racks	Car Battery Cases	Epoxy	Paint
Mops	Slacks	Insect Repellent	Oil Filters
Umbrellas	Yarn	Fertilizers	Hair Coloring
Roofing	Toilet Seats	Fishing Rods	Lipstick
Denture Adhesive	Linoleum	Ice Cube Trays	Synthetic Rubber
Speakers	Plastic Wood	Electric Blankets	Glycerin
Tennis Rackets	Rubber Cement	Fishing Boots	Dice
Nylon Rope	Candles	Trash Bags	House Paint
Water Pipes	Hand Lotion	Roller Skates	Surf Boards
Shampoo	Wheels	Paint Rollers	Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings	Luggage	Aspirin	Safety Glasses
Antifreeze	Football Helmets	Awnings	Eyeglasses (I thought they were made from glass)
Clothes	Toothbrushes	Ice Chests	Footballs
Combs	CD’s & DVD’s	Paint Brushes	Detergents
Vaporizers	Balloons	Sun Glasses	Tents
Heart Valves	Crayons	Parachutes	Telephones
Enamel	Pillows	Dishes	Cameras
Anesthetics	Artificial Turf	Artificial limbs	Bandages
Dentures	Model Cars	Folding Doors	Hair Curlers
Cold cream	Movie film	Soft Contact lenses	Drinking Cups
Fan Belts	Car Enamel	Shaving Cream	Ammonia
Refrigerators	Golf Balls	Toothpaste (Yuck)	Gasoline

 

[time2roll]

There is quite a large list of products made from petroleum. This list is constantly growing as new inventions are created. Here are some of the items which are made from petroleum.

All the more reason not to just burn it.

 

[Texas-Mark]

Just ask them what their ROI is for that $82K truck they got sitting in the driveway with a $1300/mo payment.

I have a truck (not quite that expensive) and IMO it has been worth every penny. I drive about $20K miles a year and use it for my ranch. So one can not just assume someone's ROI is horrible on a vehicle.

But as I've noted before, when electricity is cheap ($0.11 here, including all fees) solar does not have a good ROI. As for power outages, that is why I have a generator that can run off my house tank if need be. Even when we had the big winter blackout the other year, I did ok with just a smaller 2Kw genny. For here, IMO you get a better ROI with better insulation than putting up solar panels.

Of course I know rates will go up over time, and that is why I do have a small stand alone system that I keep adding onto. But I will probably be long dead before I ever break even on what I have already put into it.

 

[Sanwizard]

I have a truck (not quite that expensive) and IMO it has been worth every penny. I drive about $20K miles a year and use it for my ranch. So one can not just assume someone's ROI is horrible on a vehicle.

But as I've noted before, when electricity is cheap ($0.11 here, including all fees) solar does not have a good ROI. As for power outages, that is why I have a generator that can run off my house tank if need be. Even when we had the big winter blackout the other year, I did ok with just a smaller 2Kw genny. For here, IMO you get a better ROI with better insulation than putting up solar panels.

Of course I know rates will go up over time, and that is why I do have a small stand alone system that I keep adding onto. But I will probably be long dead before I ever break even on what I have already put into it.

Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion. Its for preparing for emergencies. That is why I think grid tie systems are just foolish. Why would you buy a solar system that is not usable when grid power is out? Silly. I just finished building my 7th 14KW battery. Each battery cost me between $1800 and $2000 with the Seplos Mason kits and 280ah EVE cells as prices changed.

My plan is to use the batteries as my primary source, and the grid as backup and power source for charging during long stretches of bad weather. Hopefully only a service charge most months for the electric bill. If the grid goes away, no problem. I will also have a natural gas / Propane generator to suppliment the grid if need be. Screw the utility companies!

 

[DThames]

Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion. Its for preparing for emergencies. That is why I think grid tie systems are just foolish. Why would you buy a solar system that is not usable when grid power is out? Silly. I just finished building my 7th 14KW battery. Each battery cost me between $1800 and $2000 with the Seplos Mason kits and 280ah EVE cells as prices changed.

My plan is to use the batteries as my primary source, and the grid as backup and power source for charging during long stretches of bad weather. Hopefully only a service charge most months for the electric bill. If the grid goes away, no problem. I will also have a natural gas / Propane generator to suppliment the grid if need be. Screw the utility companies!

I am almost to retirement and my power bill (total electric) is my meter service fee of less than $23 per month. I had the money on the bank for my install, got some tax break from US government, and my R.O.I. is just over 7 years from my June 2019 install date. Avoiding $200 or so per month (or maybe much more) on retirement income is not as foolish as some might think.

 

[time2roll]

Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion. Its for preparing for emergencies. That is why I think grid tie systems are just foolish. Why would you buy a solar system that is not usable when grid power is out?

My reason was pure financial. First 8 years was 20% return. Less now with the change of TOU but still better than money in the bank.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion. Its for preparing for emergencies. That is why I think grid tie systems are just foolish. Why would you buy a solar system that is not usable when grid power is out? Silly. I just finished building my 7th 14KW battery. Each battery cost me between $1800 and $2000 with the Seplos Mason kits and 280ah EVE cells as prices changed.

My plan is to use the batteries as my primary source, and the grid as backup and power source for charging during long stretches of bad weather. Hopefully only a service charge most months for the electric bill. If the grid goes away, no problem. I will also have a natural gas / Propane generator to suppliment the grid if need be. Screw the utility companies!

My ROI is 7 years. For me going solar was all about saving money. Electric bills are expensive. Grid tie with batteries and zero export is the cheapest and most affective way to lower the power bill. Screw the power company is what that’s doing by not giving them any power to resell.. Only thing that lowers the power bill more so is going fully offgrid. But that is the most expensive setup due to the inverters and batteries needing to be so large to accommodate the rare times when loads are higher and for surges.. and also the battery bank needs to last for many days if fully offgrid therefore tremendously adding to its size/cost..
I agree it’s silly to not have the ability of using your solar when the grids down. This is why I have a cheapo small offgrid inverter (and a spare) that uses the same battery voltage as my grid ties.. For most people power outages are rare and when they happen it’s not for long. So for most people having a small critical loads panel with only a few essential loads moved to it will do wonderfully for the short duration power outages.. and if SHTF I and most would be glad they at least have the essentials covered 24/7. Just powering the essentials 24/7 allows for a much smaller less costly battery bank.

 

[Ampster]

Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion. Its for preparing for emergencies. That is why I think grid tie systems are just foolish. Why would you buy a solar system that is not usable when grid power is out? ......

My first two systems were grid tie and with the high rates in California the payback was pretty good eight years ago. My grid was pretty reliable then.

My plan is to use the batteries as my primary source, and the grid as backup and power source for charging during long stretches of bad weather. Hopefully only a service charge most months for the electric bill.

I am in a new home in a more rural community with more frequent power outages. In addition the erosion of NEM benefits has made batteries a must have. Fortunately a hybrid inverter could AC couple to my previously installed GT system. I am also using it in Self Consumption Mode and only pay a minimum monthly bill. I build up credits in summer for use in winter when my heating loads are greater at night.

 

[Wet1]

I just finished building my 7th 14KW battery. Each battery cost me between $1800 and $2000 with the Seplos Mason kits and 280ah EVE cells as prices changed.

I know it could be done a couple of years ago, but those numbers seem quite low today. I would think you're looking at closer to $2500-$3500 for a complete 48V system using 280ah EVE cells.

 

[houseofancients]

Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion. Its for preparing for emergencies. That is why I think grid tie systems are just foolish. Why would you buy a solar system that is not usable when grid power is out? Silly. I just finished building my 7th 14KW battery. Each battery cost me between $1800 and $2000 with the Seplos Mason kits and 280ah EVE cells as prices changed.

My plan is to use the batteries as my primary source, and the grid as backup and power source for charging during long stretches of bad weather. Hopefully only a service charge most months for the electric bill. If the grid goes away, no problem. I will also have a natural gas / Propane generator to suppliment the grid if need be. Screw the utility companies!

you got yours running already ?

 

[Sanwizard]

I know it could be done a couple of years ago, but those numbers seem quite low today. I would think you're looking at closer to $2500-$3500 for a complete 48V system using 280ah EVE cells.

I bought the Masons when they first came out, and were selling at a huge discount. That said, you can still get 280AH cells for about $100 each on Alibaba, and a JK 200amp BMS for about $175. Add in cables and a DIY box, and your at about $1900 for 14KW. Signature Solar EG4's 5KW are about $1500 each, so you would need 3 of them (15KW @ $4500) to match one DIY battery.
DIY still makes a lot of sense, but I do like the server rack metal enclosures, so thats why I went with the Seplos Mason kits. Andy at off-grid-garage youtube channel is testing them. He does not like their BMS, but the enclosures are great.

 

[Sanwizard]

you got yours running already ?

Getting there. This new house has two banks of LG panels providing 600V each going to 2008 vintage SMA inverters. I have the MPP LVX6048-WP's in their box still, as I am VERY impressed with the reliability of the SMA inverters, and having second thoughts on the AC couple ability of the MPP units and the fact they lack a large transformer for inductive loads. Ian's testing at Watts247.com showed the MPP's hitting a wall at 4500 watts per phase, which is very similar to Sol-Ark. The Sunny Islands seem to handle up to 30min of peak loads for HVAC and pool pumps, so I am leaning in that direction.

I am still unpacking boxes, and recently took a package at work, so my income is now dropping WAY down, and the Sunny Islands are expensive. All that is slowing me down a bit. Thanks for asking.

 

[Vigo]

QAnon?! I posted a link to NPR. It's about as left as it gets.

Now, im not trying to make enemies here but NPR is FAR from as left as it gets, and it only seems that way because media skews the perceived 'acceptable range of opinions' which is really the 'profitably publishable range of opinions', far to the right of what it actually is at ground level.

As far as science being broken, I don't know the context of the statement because i haven't read the prior post, but i'm very receptive to the vague concept of the statement. And that is why i should probably actually read the Unibomber Manifesto, right?

ruh-roh...

One time i got in trouble at high school for being in possession of something called 'the anarchist's cookbook'. Which i never read. But it wouldn't surprise me if some current-day equivalent would contain detailed instructions on how to.. dun dun dunnnn.. produce electricity off-grid. ?

 

[Sanwizard]

Getting there. This new house has two banks of LG panels providing 600V each going to 2008 vintage SMA inverters. I have the MPP LVX6048-WP's in their box still, as I am VERY impressed with the reliability of the SMA inverters, and having second thoughts on the AC couple ability of the MPP units and the fact they lack a large transformer for inductive loads. Ian's testing at Watts247.com showed the MPP's hitting a wall at 4500 watts per phase, which is very similar to Sol-Ark. The Sunny Islands seem to handle up to 30min of peak loads for HVAC and pool pumps, so I am leaning in that direction.

I am still unpacking boxes, and recently took a package at work, so my income is now dropping WAY down, and the Sunny Islands are expensive. All that is slowing me down a bit. Thanks for asking.

This test by David Poz is one reason I am seriously considering the SMA inverters to couple with my 7 batteries and AC couple to my SMA sunny boys.

 

[wattmatters]

Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion.

Whether or not it is a rational financial decision to install a solar PV system, be it grid-tied of off-grid, is entirely dependent on a range of factors specific to each location and individual household or living circumstance.

The result of those factors means the answer is actually a spectrum, all the way from you're an idiot if you don't through to you're an idiot if you do. Most are somewhere in the middle, a little on one side or the other of neutrality.

Some combination of access to suitable sun soaked space, sufficiently helpful or not too unhelpful of a regulatory environment, high enough grid tariffs and reasonable installation costs are the combination of factors needed.

If grid prices are very low where you happen to be while installation costs are high, then yup, it'll be hard to make solar PV make financial sense unless grid tariffs are extortionate.

But there are sections of the global community for whom it makes perfect sense. There's a reason one in three Australian homes has grid-tied rooftop solar PV (and it is still growing strongly), and I doubt that it would have grown to be that high if it were a silly financial decision.

 

[Wet1]

I bought the Masons when they first came out, and were selling at a huge discount. That said, you can still get 280AH cells for about $100 each on Alibaba, and a JK 200amp BMS for about $175. Add in cables and a DIY box, and your at about $1900 for 14KW.

I guess I'll have to look again. Last time I checked, you couldn't get decent 280Ah Eve cells delivered for $100. If that's the case, I would consider building another 14kWh battery.

 

[Sanwizard]

Whether or not it is a rational financial decision to install a solar PV system, be it grid-tied of off-grid, is entirely dependent on a range of factors specific to each location and individual household or living circumstance.

The result of those factors means the answer is actually a spectrum, all the way from you're an idiot if you don't through to you're an idiot if you do. Most are somewhere in the middle, a little on one side or the other of neutrality.

Some combination of access to suitable sun soaked space, sufficiently helpful or not too unhelpful of a regulatory environment, high enough grid tariffs and reasonable installation costs are the combination of factors needed.

If grid prices are very low where you happen to be while installation costs are high, then yup, it'll be hard to make solar PV make financial sense unless grid tariffs are extortionate.

But there are sections of the global community for whom it makes perfect sense. There's a reason one in three Australian homes has grid-tied rooftop solar PV (and it is still growing strongly), and I doubt that it would have grown to be that high if it were a silly financial decision.

I agree with your points, but I still think its silly not to be able to use your solar installation when the grid goes down though. Even if there is no storage, the system should always be able to use an automatic transfer switch so you can still use your system, just like a Generac generator system.