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diy solar

diy solar

Does the Power company charge you for Solar electric without special meter?

I mean... there's this... which I kind of recommend for DIY solar people who aren't really DIY solar people.

Thanks. If this shuts off in case of power outages, this could be perfect.
 
If you don't know electrical then don't mess with 240v. Start with small 12V stuff it's much safer. I still don't understand why you want to do this in a 10Kft² house? I guess you are a tenant or it belongs to your parents?

What are you saying exactly? Why is solar not acceptable on a 10,000 square foot house? I have a certain area where the sun beats down on a flat room that is in the kitchen area. Room before very hot. Roof is currently darkish paper substance and like gravel rocks all over. We think that sun beating down on the area is causing excess heat in the kitchen and considering maybe using very reflecting white paint and cleanup the gravel rocks.
When we think that maybe we can shade the area with solar panels and get a few extra watts of power plus reflecting the sun for added cooling benefit.
You are unsure why do any solar or why not do more solar? I don't understand your objection?
 
Thanks. If this shuts off in case of power outages, this could be perfect.
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Why do you care about saving $300 a year on electricity while this place runs up your electric bill into tens of thousands? I don't get why are afraid of legally installing solar on your house and want to hide it? You can't afford it? Then how do you afford a place this big in SFL?
 
I would expect you would need permitting and a interconnect agreement, otherwise the power company would notice the back feed.

Even with a grid zero system, your inverter will push a tiny bit of energy back into the grid when big devices suddenly shut off, like a 20 ton AC.

Whether it’s an Outback Radian, Victron Multiplus, or other meters, these have been caught.

Whether or not a power company picks it up depends on the meter.

A single 100 watt panel is likely less than your idle draw, so that may not be noticed by the POCO, but will have no effect on reducing the bill.

If you redo the AC, you can get mini-splits up to 2 tons that have solar assist built in that have not been noticed by the POCO, except electric bills get too low.

Whole house is setup on a 3 phase 20 ton chilled water system. Inside parts use chilled water for cooling. The mini splits or even regular residential AC are a whole different animal down to the DNA.

We have plenty of computers, servers, etc... that run 1 phase inside the house. I think fridge and freezer too.
 
I am right now concern on if the power is able to find its way to where its needed without advance electrical knowledge and work. I was hoping just to plug it into a plug and have it back feed to the entire house and it can just sort of use what it needs but you are saying you need to direct it right the a large load circuit directly?
Grid tied solar is quite simple to understand. Electricity is not much different than water flowing. It wants to take the easiest path. Grid power comes in through the main breaker at the breaker panel. Without solar power, that power input has to feed all of the loads in the building. We will ignore power factor to keep this simple, the current of all of the individual loads all add up and pull from the main breaker.

When you add grid tied solar into the mix, it is not really a power source. The grid tied inverter is a current source. Instead of a load taking energy, it is an energy feed into the system. If the building has 5,000 wats of loads, and no solar, then all of the power comes from the grid input. But if you now add 1,000 watts of grid tied solar, what you are really doing is pushing just over 4 amps of current into the breaker panel. This current will help power all of the loads. So now the grid input only needs to provide 4,000 watts at the same 240 volts. The grid input does not know the difference between this being only 4,000 watts of load, or the 5,000 watts of loads and 1,000 watts of solar input. The grid power meter will not know the difference at all. If clouds come over, then the grid current will increase to cover the loss of the solar. But again, the meter just sees an increase in load.

The only way the meter sees anything different is if the solar power being pushed into the system exceeds the loads after the power meter. If you happen to have 4,000 watts of solar pushing in at high noon, and the same 5,000 watts of loads running, the grid still sees it as a load, but now only pulling 1,000 watts. Still no problem. But then a machine pulling 2,000 watts turns off. Now the load is only 3,000 watts. The grid tied solar is still pushing 4,000 watts. This is when the electricity will go backwards. You will now have 1,000 watts flowing out to the grid. An old mechanical meter will actually spin backwards. The digital meters will most likely report the reverse power on a separate readout. They actually had to make special meters to count forwards with reverse current. Some very early meters were still internally mechanical with the spinning disk. But to make them remote readable, it had a counter that just counted disk rotations. It was a single pulse, so it would count up with backwards current, and they didn't want to fix that. If you put in solar and pushed extra power, that meter would bill you for power you gave the utility. The newer all electronic meters are much smarter. They will rat on you and tell the utility you pushed power out. It is illegal to push power into the grid without a connection agreement.

As long as you are certain you will never push more solar power than the power you consume, this is not really an issue as the meter, no matter how smart, it will never know. What is the lowest wattage you ever see being pulled while the sun is shining? If your solar never exceeds that, then it will never be detected. But if something big turns off, it might happen.

But if you do start pushing a decent amount of grid tied PV solar power, getting close to your consumption, you have to be very careful about big loads turning off. There is no zero export grid tied inverter that is fast enough to eliminate an export current when a big load turns off. Some are faster, but my setup takes about 8 to 15 seconds to fully zero the grid current when my central A/C turns off. If it is when the sun is shining, it has to do it by turning up the battery charge current to use up the extra solar production. I do net out zero, because when the A/C turns on again, it takes the same time for it to see the load and crank up the output to zero the power again. It is a constant balancing act as the load current changes. At 5 pm, my solar only makes half the power my A/C needs. So my system switches up and back from charging the battery to inverting from battery to still keep the grid current near zero all the time. The A/C uses about 4,000 watts. Solar is making 2,000 watts. It pulls 2,000 watts from battery to run the A/C with no grid current. But when the A/C turns off, it has to charge the battery at 2,000 watts so the solar does not export to the grid. Obviously, I have a lot of other loads as well, so this is going on all the time for every load.

How bad is it to get a net metering deal? What does it do to your billing? I made the mistake of not asking these questions when I was getting solar quotes. No installer mentioned that my billing would change at all. They just subtracted the expect solar energy production from my bill and said I would save 70%. Well, that didn't happen. I only ended up saving 30%, but that is still a decent savings. If they were honest with me up front about the billing change, I probably would have bought a bigger system and they would have made more money.
 
How does the power from the microinverters push back electrons from grid power?
Same way your solar panel pushes back electrons from your battery except the micro inverter changes polarity in sinusoidal pattern 120 times per second. How it actually accomplishes that is software magic.
 
Why do you care about saving $300 a year on electricity while this place runs up your electric bill into tens of thousands? I don't get why are afraid of legally installing solar on your house and want to hide it? You can't afford it? Then how do you afford a place this big in SFL?

The little amounts add up in the long run when you are talking about running nonstop 24/7.
We have a room that overheats even with commercial size AC units due to the sun beating down on the roof. Even painting the roof with a highly reflective paint or other coating would benefit us by cooling down the room and less of a load on the AV.

The area that I live frowns on solar panels and views them as an eyesore . I don't recall a single house in this neighborhood that has them and they might take issue with me putting them up to begin with. It's also in the path of many hurricane so they might be something may not last long or might have to be taken down before a storm.

Even if we decide not to do any solar panels, we are looking for ways to reflect light from this room and do things to generally decrease our power bill and increase the efficiently of the air condition system such as using liquid chilling or using the heat from the AC unit for pool and general water heating, etc... Like I said, small things add up.

I would like to perhaps at first get my feet wet in something very simple and small just to test it out.

I also understand that power companies can screw over customers with that net metering stuff. Paying them very little for power they receive then charging you a lot more when you get that power back.

I seriously doubt my house uses less then 1,000 watts regardless of what is going on at any time of the day. Heck, I think we probably have 1,000 watts of computers and/or servers running 24/7.

If I can see those a 1,000 watt of savings and I don't get shut down by the neighbors then maybe I can try to do it on a larger scale.

However this is not even for the normal roof house which are a expensive stone tile but but rather a small roof area which half of it is like an overhand for a patio area and the other half is for the kitchen which is flat surface. Its not a big area to begin with.

Can I get a yes or no answer to my question if the back feed will make it to the electric requirements of my house if I am always using more than I am producing or if I need to bring the power into the high load circuit to use that power? I'm not an engineer so I don't know how this electric flow works exactly.

I know on my drip irrigation system, I can pressurize a hose with water and it can feed into the smaller drip hoses and sprinklers that are connected to the system from a single source. I don't know if electric flow works the same as water as far as moving to where its needed in a house's electrical system.

Thanks.
 
Same way your solar panel pushes back electrons from your battery except the micro inverter changes polarity in sinusoidal pattern 120 times per second. How it actually accomplishes that is software magic.

Are you talking about how many Hertz the system is?
 
I know this works but how does it works?
How does the power from the microinverters push back electrons from grid power?
Let's go back to the water analogy.

Each load is taking so many gallons per minute.

The solar inverters are pumping in so many gallons per minute.

The grid has to deal with the difference.

If the loads are more than the solar, then the grid has to supply the extra "water". When the solar pumps more than the loads need, the extra goes back out the grid. There is no extra electronics needed to make this happen. It is just how electricity naturally flows.

The solar should go into the breaker panel, but it will also work on a branch circuit. But you have to make sure you don't exceed the current capacity of the circuit. For safety, it is a good idea to follow the 120% rule and feed the panel at the opposite end versus the main grid feed. That ensures the bus bars in the panel will not be over loaded.
 
Whole house is setup on a 3 phase 20 ton chilled water system. Inside parts use chilled water for cooling. The mini splits or even regular residential AC are a whole different animal down to the DNA.

We have plenty of computers, servers, etc... that run 1 phase inside the house. I think fridge and freezer too.
I am an hvac and electrical contractor.
I bet i could reduce your energy bill double whatever a small solar system could produce... and it would save 24/7, not just during sunshine hours...

10,000 sqft should have a 20 ton system.
Since it does, improving the efficiency of the build, and the house will save far more than all but a massive solar farm could save.
 
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The area that I live frowns on solar panels and views them as an eyesore .
In Florida your neighbors cannot restrict you from legally installing solar.
It's also in the path of many hurricane so they might be something may not last long or might have to be taken down before a storm.
Properly installed panels are designed to withstand hurricane winds. The cost of panels themselves is only 10 - 15% of entire cost of solar install. If they get damaged just swap them out with new ones for a fraction of the cost of complete system.
I would like to perhaps at first get my feet wet in something very simple and small just to test it out.
Sure so you want something hobby scale to play around with. My best suggestion is a bunch of used Enphase microinverters connected to one of your 240V circuits. Not legal (and can get your fined if nosy neighbor reports you) but as you say your constant minimum house load far exceeds the maximum a handful of panels will produce.
If I can see those a 1,000 watt of savings and I don't get shut down by the neighbors then maybe I can try to do it on a larger scale.
There is no need to experiment to prove that. It is easy to predict with good accuracy how much energy solar install will generate. Chances are your guerilla solar will have to be hidden behind shadow sources that will severely reduce your gain.
Can I get a yes or no answer to my question if the back feed will make it to the electric requirements of my house if I am always using more than I am producing
Yes, it has nowhere else to go but into your house loads as long as house loads exceed solar output.
I don't know if electric flow works the same as water as far as moving to where its needed in a house's electrical system.
Yes it is very similar analogy to electric current - literally is called current (like water, except not exactly literally haha).
 
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Just so you are aware, there are models like the Sol-Ark 30k and 60k. I would go that route if using 3 phase. Fewer parts, high voltage battery. Good stuff. Keep it in a power house, so the battery is of no danger to occupants if cost is not a problem.
 
The area that I live frowns on solar panels and views them as an eyesore . I don't recall a single house in this neighborhood that has them and they might take issue with me putting them up to begin with
It’s not up to your neighbors, it’s up to town hall. Pull a permit and put up panels.

But first, get an Emporia Vue or equivalent and survey your power use. Then you’ll know.

And yes, if you produce solar power less than your base load, you won’t push any power back to the grid.

I suspect insulation will have a lot faster payback.
 

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