Does Victron make a 5kVA inverter without a charger?

[oceanrider]

As I will be often charging the two 48v SOK batteries with a generator a dedicated charger separate of the inverter seems best from what I gather. So with the 48v Multiplus II 3kVA or 5kVA, I was told the EG4 Chargeverter GC – 48V 100A Battery Charger would be best for my application. But it seems a waste to also have to have the charger in the Multiplus II which I think would not get used?

I really need/want fast charging ability. And was told a separate charger is best for charging with a generator.

Is there a way to have a quality Victron inverter and a separate fast charger only?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

The largest they make in 120V is 3kVA, and their inverters often cost a touch more than their inverter/chargers in the same power range.

Did the person that told you that want to sell you a Chargeverter? Do you know why the Chargeverter exists? It's because most Voltronics-type AiO handle generator power very poorly, and do not charge reliably unless you are using an inverter generator or grid.

What is your motivation for "fast charging?" It is purely to have minimum generator run time? While your batteries have a max charge current of 100A ea, they have a recommended charge of 63A.

MP-II 5kVA charges at 70A. that means your batteries can be fully charged in < 3h.

Additionally, if you plan to have closed loop comms with your batteries, the MP-II charger can be managed by the battery where a chargeverter would be unmanaged.

 

[Brucey]

As I will be often charging the two 48v SOK batteries with a generator a dedicated charger separate of the inverter seems best from what I gather. So with the 48v Multiplus II 3kVA or 5kVA, I was told the EG4 Chargeverter GC – 48V 100A Battery Charger would be best for my application. But it seems a waste to also have to have the charger in the Multiplus II which I think would not get used?

I really need/want fast charging ability. And was told a separate charger is best for charging with a generator.

Is there a way to have a quality Victron inverter and a separate fast charger only?

I would stick with multiplus II as they have the integrated transfer switches etc, feed the generator into that. 70A versus 100A not a huge difference.

 

[oceanrider]

The largest they make in 120V is 3kVA, and their inverters often cost a touch more than their inverter/chargers in the same power range.

Did the person that told you that want to sell you a Chargeverter? Do you know why the Chargeverter exists? It's because most Voltronics-type AiO handle generator power very poorly, and do not charge reliably unless you are using an inverter generator or grid.

What is your motivation for "fast charging?" It is purely to have minimum generator run time? While your batteries have a max charge current of 100A ea, they have a recommended charge of 63A.

MP-II 5kVA charges at 70A. that means your batteries can be fully charged in < 3h.

Additionally, if you plan to have closed loop comms with your batteries, the MP-II charger can be managed by the battery where a chargeverter would be unmanaged.

I am putting together a mobile workshop. But my van needs to be parked off HOA grounds before 12 midnight. So I will need a fast charger so I can charge up the batteries prior to the next day of work. So get home, fast charge and park the van out of the community before going to bed.

I was just thinking it seems a waste to have two chargers, that's all. Oh, and I will want to have the ability to charge by generator if need be, so want a chargeverter for that, for sure.

And having a 100 amp charger built into the system why would I ever want or need to use the MP-II charger, ever?

Still trying to learn and figure this all out.

 

[Supervstech]

As I will be often charging the two 48v SOK batteries with a generator a dedicated charger separate of the inverter seems best from what I gather. So with the 48v Multiplus II 3kVA or 5kVA, I was told the EG4 Chargeverter GC – 48V 100A Battery Charger would be best for my application. But it seems a waste to also have to have the charger in the Multiplus II which I think would not get used?

I really need/want fast charging ability. And was told a separate charger is best for charging with a generator.

Is there a way to have a quality Victron inverter and a separate fast charger only?

Most inverters that integrate charging as well do so through reversing the inverter components, it’s not like there is a separate charger built into the unit you wouldn’t be using…

If you don’t wanna use it, don’t…

 

[Q-Dog]

Once in a while is OK but in the long term, fast charging is not great for the batteries.

How long is the commute? Can you take advantage of the alternator to put some charge into the batteries?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I am putting together a mobile workshop. But my van needs to be parked off HOA grounds before 12 midnight. So I will need a fast charger so I can charge up the batteries prior to the next day of work. So get home, fast charge and park the van out of the community before going to bed.

I was just thinking it seems a waste to have two chargers, that's all.

Generally agree. Again, a 5kVA MP-II can charge at 70A. That means you could charge your batteries from dead empty in < 3 hours. Chargeverter will be able to do it in about 2.

If fast charging is TRULY needed, the two together will get you charged in a bit over an hour.

Oh, and I will want to have the ability to charge by generator if need be, so want a chargeverter for that, for sure.

Your thinking is not correct. If you have a MP-II, or any other Victron inverter/charger, you will be able to charge from generator. The chargeverter exists because of a deficiency in OTHER products, not Victron. Victron chargers gobble up dirty generator power with no issues and can be configured to be even more tolerant.

Still trying to learn and figure this all out.

The process never ends.

 

[Brucey]

I am putting together a mobile workshop. But my van needs to be parked off HOA grounds before 12 midnight. So I will need a fast charger so I can charge up the batteries prior to the next day of work. So get home, fast charge and park the van out of the community before going to bed.

I was just thinking it seems a waste to have two chargers, that's all. Oh, and I will want to have the ability to charge by generator if need be, so want a chargeverter for that, for sure.

And having a 100 amp charger built into the system why would I ever want or need to use the MP-II charger, ever?

Still trying to learn and figure this all out.

OK I think previously you were considering a multiplus II 3kVA with 35A charge rate and I had suggested a chargeverter for your HOA time limited charge window. But with the 70A charge rating of the 5kVA model I wouldn't worry about the chargeverter.

 

[oceanrider]

Once in a while is OK but in the long term, fast charging is not great for the batteries.

How long is the commute? Can you take advantage of the alternator to put some charge into the batteries?

Regrettably not long typically anywhere from 15 to 40 minutes one way. I don't want to add another alternator and would think my current one is only 12v.

I've read up on this EV4 charger and I can set the charging output to the 48v SOK battery. I've probably typically got 4-6 hours available of charging time and maybe 2-3 in the morning sometimes before i would need to park the van for the night away from charging capability. But late afternoon to 12 midnight but would rather 10-11pm be the latest to park my van away from charging for the night. So typically, anywhere from 4-6hrs of charge time for the two SOK 48v batteries I want to use.

 

[oceanrider]

Generally agree. Again, a 5kVA MP-II can charge at 70A. That means you could charge your batteries from dead empty in < 3 hours. Chargeverter will be able to do it in about 2.

If fast charging is TRULY needed, the two together will get you charged in a bit over an hour.



Your thinking is not correct. If you have a MP-II, or any other Victron inverter/charger, you will be able to charge from generator. The chargeverter exists because of a deficiency in OTHER products, not Victron. Victron chargers gobble up dirty generator power with no issues and can be configured to be even more tolerant.



The process never ends.

I did not know this about Victron. Thanks!

 

[oceanrider]

OK I think previously you were considering a multiplus II 3kVA with 35A charge rate and I had suggested a chargeverter for your HOA time limited charge window. But with the 70A charge rating of the 5kVA model I wouldn't worry about the chargeverter.

Thanks! Buying the 5kVA would do two things, give me more capabilities, output wise, and then be able to charge via shore power or generator faster. Still learning. Thanks again!

Would shore power be limited to 120v only and would that still be fast for two SOK batteries. I do have 220 available. Could I wire the system up to use either?

Can you adjust the charging output of the MP-II, or is it automatic only

 

[toms]

I have a Victron Phoenix 48/5000 inverter, I’m not sure if they make one suitable for 120V. I didn’t need the charger, and it was cheaper than the Multiplus.

 

[oceanrider]

I have a Victron Phoenix 48/5000 inverter, I’m not sure if they make one suitable for 120V. I didn’t need the charger, and it was cheaper than the Multiplus.

Thanks Tom, I need the charger, but from my quick reading of the generic MultiPlus II manual that looks like it covers all MP-II models, I think only 120vac input for charging

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Thanks! Buying the 5kVA would do two things, give me more capabilities, output wise, and then be able to charge via shore power or generator faster. Still learning. Thanks again!

Would shore power be limited to 120v only and would that still be fast for two SOK batteries. I do have 220 available. Could I wire the system up to use either?

Can you adjust the charging output of the MP-II, or is it automatic only

120V input/output only.

You can adjust both input AC allowance and charging output. I prefer to leave output at max and just change the input, i.e., if you just have a 15A plug available, you can set it to 15A input, and it will only use as much charging as it takes to draw 15A input.

I have a Victron Phoenix 48/5000 inverter, I’m not sure if they make one suitable for 120V. I didn’t need the charger, and it was cheaper than the Multiplus.

Nope. 3kVA max, and it prices are pretty much at parity. I think you folks in the 230V world get to pay a little less than we do...

 

[Brucey]

Thanks! Buying the 5kVA would do two things, give me more capabilities, output wise, and then be able to charge via shore power or generator faster. Still learning. Thanks again!

Would shore power be limited to 120v only and would that still be fast for two SOK batteries. I do have 220 available. Could I wire the system up to use either?

Can you adjust the charging output of the MP-II, or is it automatic only

It would be limited to 120V.

You can adjust the charging output of the mp2.

Here are the AC wiring recommendations:

 

[Brucey]

120V input/output only.

You can adjust both input AC allowance and charging output. I prefer to leave output at max and just change the input, i.e., if you just have a 15A plug available, you can set it to 15A input, and it will only use as much charging as it takes to draw 15A input.



Nope. 3kVA max, and it prices are pretty much at parity. I think you folks in the 230V world get to pay a little less than we do...

Looks like they've also got "smart" versions of the Phoenix in 230V land, with same look as mp2s and quattro 2s.

 

[oceanrider]

Looks like they've also got "smart" versions of the Phoenix in 230V land, with same look as mp2s and quattro 2s.

View attachment 213582

Brucey,
You've been very helpful and I'm learning a lot. But still trying to wrap my head around this. It seems a 5kVA MP-II would be my better option over buying the 3kVA and an additional charger. I would get the ability for more output if needed and a faster charger. I just need to be able to charge at home faster than what the 3kVA can do. But since I can only use 120vac at home with the 5kVA, can the 5kVA really charge that much faster than the 3kVA using only 120vac? Also can I hook only one 100ah battery to the 5kVA MP-II? In the specs for the 5kVA? And according to other post is seems generator charging is not an issue with the Victron. There was another poster that said fast charging it not the best for the batteries.
Thanks!

 

[Brucey]

Brucey,
You've been very helpful and I'm learning a lot. But still trying to wrap my head around this. It seems a 5kVA MP-II would be my better option over buying the 3kVA and an additional charger. I would get the ability for more output if needed and a faster charger. I just need to be able to charge at home faster than what the 3kVA can do. But since I can only use 120vac at home with the 5kVA, can the 5kVA really charge that much faster than the 3kVA using only 120vac? Also can I hook only one 100ah battery to the 5kVA MP-II? In the specs for the 5kVA? And according to other post is seems generator charging is not an issue with the Victron. There was another poster that said fast charging it not the best for the batteries.
Thanks!

The 3kVA has a 35A charger. it can charge at a max of 35A at your batteries bulk rate (say 56V).

The 5kVA has a 70A charger. so it can charge your batteries at twice the speed of the 3kVA. It will pull more from its AC input as a result.

Yes a single 100Ah can be used, but be aware that a surge load on the 5kVA could exceed the batteries BMS current draw limits (prob 100A for a 100Ah battery) and cause the battery BMS to disconnect.

So usually a vendor will suggest say 30A per battery for everyday charge rate to optimize lifecycle count. But personally if you need to charge faster, then give it what you need to get it charged up and then parked at curbside so you can get to sleep. I have a Delta 2 max. I can throttle it down to charge at 200W, I can also ramp it up to charge at over 2.2kW. It has a 2kWh battery. If I have the time I'll charge it slow, if I need to charge it up so I can use it outside for a task I'll take it to max. Ultimately we can use our batteries to get work done or perhaps treat them like show princesses and take it easy. Either way calendar aging will prob degrade them first.

 

[Brucey]

Sorry, Victron recommends 200Ah minimum for the 5kVA:

 

[oceanrider]

Sorry, Victron recommends 200Ah minimum for the 5kVA:

View attachment 213668

But would that be 200ah for a full load? Let say my max continuous load was just slightly more than what the 3kVA could put out. Because in all honesty, I think I'd be fine with the 3kVA, just getting the 5kVA for the charger.

 

[wpns]

The 3kVA has a 35A charger. it can charge at a max of 35A at your batteries bulk rate (say 56V).

The 5kVA has a 70A charger. so it can charge your batteries at twice the speed of the 3kVA. It will pull more from its AC input as a result.

You are going to need a pretty hefty 120V socket and a Giant Extension Cord to charge at 3-5KW. Think clothes dryer.

 

[Brucey]

But would that be 200ah for a full load? Let say my max continuous load was just slightly more than what the 3kVA could put out. Because in all honesty, I think I'd be fine with the 3kVA, just getting the 5kVA for the charger.

Yes at 3k levels a 100Ah should be fine.

 

[jimf909]

Your thinking is not correct. If you have a MP-II, or any other Victron inverter/charger, you will be able to charge from generator. The chargeverter exists because of a deficiency in OTHER products, not Victron. Victron chargers gobble up dirty generator power with no issues and can be configured to be even more tolerant.

My experience is that Victron inverters can get grumpy with dirty power from an open frame generator. I had to deploy software settings Victron describes in their generator FAQs which resulted in slower charging and potentially passing through power that's not ideal for sensitive electronics.

My #1 reason for using the EG4 100 amp battery charger - I refuse to use their stupid marketing-bred brand name - is to only supply the house with clean Victron inverter AC and never pass through potentially questionable generator AC. A discreet battery charger avoids the risks that Victron described below, e.g. when a substandard backup-backup generator is used.

Can one use a sub-standard generator and adjust the Multiplus II settings to charge the batteries and pass-through cruddy power to home appliances? Yes, but why do that when a $450 battery charger totally eliminates the possibility of ever needing to do that.

From Victron:

MultiPlus Generator FAQ [Victron Energy]

www.victronenergy.com

Software Settings​

The settings which you should attempt first are 'Disable UPS mode' and 'Enable Dynamic Current limiting'. These compromise features, but maintain the quality of the power supply.
If the generator will still not synchronise or disconnects, try turning on the setting for Weak AC. This will compromise efficiency, but allow for a wider variation in wave form distortion to be accepted.
Lastly, adjusting the settings for Voltage and Frequency windows. These are higher risk to your appliances, they should only be used cautiously when it is confirmed that the loads will tolerate the out of specification power supply. This should be done by a competent technician with the aid of a multimeter and only opened so far as to allow for safe functionality.
Electrical current will go through the MultiPlus only if it meets the programmed minimal quality requirements; in that way the MultiPlus protects the electrical supply of delicate equipment.
Warning: changing these settings will allow to feed-through current that may be of insufficient quality for the electrical requirements of your equipment.
For information on VEConfigure and how to get started, please see this VE Configure Software page, or contact your local Victron dealer.

 

[oceanrider]

My experience is that Victron inverters can get grumpy with dirty power from an open frame generator. I had to deploy software settings Victron describes in their generator FAQs which resulted in slower charging and potentially passing through power that's not ideal for sensitive electronics.

My #1 reason for using the EG4 100 amp battery charger - I refuse to use their stupid marketing-bred brand name - is to only supply the house with clean Victron inverter AC and never pass through potentially questionable generator AC. A discreet battery charger avoids the risks that Victron describes below, e.g. when a substandard backup-backup generator is used.

Can one use a sub-standard generator and adjust the Multiplus II settings to charge the batteries and pass-through cruddy power to home appliances? Yes, but why do that when a $450 battery charger totally eliminates the possibility of ever needing to do that.

From Victron:

MultiPlus Generator FAQ [Victron Energy]

www.victronenergy.com

Software Settings​

The settings which you should attempt first are 'Disable UPS mode' and 'Enable Dynamic Current limiting'. These compromise features, but maintain the quality of the power supply.
If the generator will still not synchronise or disconnects, try turning on the setting for Weak AC. This will compromise efficiency, but allow for a wider variation in wave form distortion to be accepted.
Lastly, adjusting the settings for Voltage and Frequency windows. These are higher risk to your appliances, they should only be used cautiously when it is confirmed that the loads will tolerate the out of specification power supply. This should be done by a competent technician with the aid of a multimeter and only opened so far as to allow for safe functionality.
Electrical current will go through the MultiPlus only if it meets the programmed minimal quality requirements; in that way the MultiPlus protects the electrical supply of delicate equipment.
Warning: changing these settings will allow to feed-through current that may be of insufficient quality for the electrical requirements of your equipment.
For information on VEConfigure and how to get started, please see this VE Configure Software page, or contact your local Victron dealer.

Thank you for your input on this

 

[sunshine_eggo]

My experience is that Victron inverters can get grumpy with dirty power from an open frame generator. I had to deploy software settings Victron describes in their generator FAQs which resulted in slower charging and potentially passing through power that's not ideal for sensitive electronics.

My #1 reason for using the EG4 100 amp battery charger - I refuse to use their stupid marketing-bred brand name - is to only supply the house with clean Victron inverter AC and never pass through potentially questionable generator AC. A discreet battery charger avoids the risks that Victron describes below, e.g. when a substandard backup-backup generator is used.

Can one use a sub-standard generator and adjust the Multiplus II settings to charge the batteries and pass-through cruddy power to home appliances? Yes, but why do that when a $450 battery charger totally eliminates the possibility of ever needing to do that.

From Victron:

MultiPlus Generator FAQ [Victron Energy]

www.victronenergy.com

Software Settings​

The settings which you should attempt first are 'Disable UPS mode' and 'Enable Dynamic Current limiting'. These compromise features, but maintain the quality of the power supply.
If the generator will still not synchronise or disconnects, try turning on the setting for Weak AC. This will compromise efficiency, but allow for a wider variation in wave form distortion to be accepted.
Lastly, adjusting the settings for Voltage and Frequency windows. These are higher risk to your appliances, they should only be used cautiously when it is confirmed that the loads will tolerate the out of specification power supply. This should be done by a competent technician with the aid of a multimeter and only opened so far as to allow for safe functionality.
Electrical current will go through the MultiPlus only if it meets the programmed minimal quality requirements; in that way the MultiPlus protects the electrical supply of delicate equipment.
Warning: changing these settings will allow to feed-through current that may be of insufficient quality for the electrical requirements of your equipment.
For information on VEConfigure and how to get started, please see this VE Configure Software page, or contact your local Victron dealer.

IMHO, your issue is a dirty generator.

The chargeverter costs more than my $400 crummy open frame Predator generator that produces 60±2Hz power. Yeah, it's a little dirty, but the only thing it affects is the electric blanket that has a shutoff timer that apparently uses the 60Hz signal to keep track of time.