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Easy Question - Islanding

quantum`

Earthling Observer
Joined
Aug 24, 2024
Messages
315
Location
Seattle
I have read until my eyes bleed, but I do not have an answer to a simple question.

Goals:
  • DC-to-split phase AC (US), 6,600W-10kW bi-facial array.
  • Ability to add batteries.
  • Solar energy directed to the house and batteries, before being sent to grid -- although I have net metering 1:1, it resets every March so it doesn't make sense to overpanel.
  • If the grid goes down the system 'islands', so the house has power from panels and batteries without shipping to the grid, for as long as batteries last at night and as long as there is Sun during the day.
I have been interested in AP Systems microinverters to which I could add an AC-coupled battery system, although there would need to be some kind of 'interlocutor' panel to decide when grid power is there or not. What? Also AP Sysytems have not responded my multiple questions on compatibility with 660W panels, a bad sign.

I've read here the statement, "Most AllInOne are built around being cheap." Really? And WTF is the difference between an AiO and hybrid?

I've also considered the EG4 12kPV string, but being a hybrid do not know whether it has islanding capabilities. There is also the category of 'off-grid' inverters which are obviously off-grid, but I'm not ready for that step yet. Anyway, string inverters strike me as 'old' tech. Why don't we have something more innovative? Something unexpected? Like micros were?

I notice alot of ppl here have the EG4 6000XP, which seems to me dated tech compared with the 12kPV. Why?

I should add that I am not afraid of HF inverters. I've dealt with HF for 50 years since my Air Force days. If designed well, it holds up.
 
Grid-tied = a system that relies on the grid to function.
All solar production is either used immediately or sent (exported) to the grid.

Off-grid = a system that operates independently from any grid. All solar production is either used immediately or sent (stored) in batteries, for future use.

Hybrid = a combination of both grid-tied and off-grid. It can function in either scenario. This is also why they are the most expensive. Because you are buying two systems.

AIO = All In One
A complete system ( off-grid or hybrid) in a single enclosure.
 
Not sure what your question is. You do understand that if you can export to grid it requires being in parallel with grid. Loads on the grid including your home (and all your neighbor's homes) see all supplies in common. You do not really direct your supply to your home as much as you try to zero out your homes load from the overall load.

Grid companies require Anti-islanding for any supplies in parallel with grid. Your island when grid goes down is an inverter no longer in parallel with grid or incapable of parallel with grid.
 
I have read until my eyes bleed, but I do not have an answer to a simple question.

Goals:
  • DC-to-split phase AC (US), 6,600W-10kW bi-facial array.
  • Ability to add batteries.
  • Solar energy directed to the house and batteries, before being sent to grid -- although I have net metering 1:1, it resets every March so it doesn't make sense to overpanel.
  • If the grid goes down the system 'islands', so the house has power from panels and batteries without shipping to the grid, for as long as batteries last at night and as long as there is Sun during the day.
I have been interested in AP Systems microinverters to which I could add an AC-coupled battery system, although there would need to be some kind of 'interlocutor' panel to decide when grid power is there or not. What? Also AP Sysytems have not responded my multiple questions on compatibility with 660W panels, a bad sign.

I've read here the statement, "Most AllInOne are built around being cheap." Really? And WTF is the difference between an AiO and hybrid?

I've also considered the EG4 12kPV string, but being a hybrid do not know whether it has islanding capabilities. There is also the category of 'off-grid' inverters which are obviously off-grid, but I'm not ready for that step yet. Anyway, string inverters strike me as 'old' tech. Why don't we have something more innovative? Something unexpected? Like micros were?

I notice alot of ppl here have the EG4 6000XP, which seems to me dated tech compared with the 12kPV. Why?

I should add that I am not afraid of HF inverters. I've dealt with HF for 50 years since my Air Force days. If designed well, it holds up.
EG4 12/18kpv's can power a sub-panel (typically referred to as a "critical load panel") attached to the load terminals, you would need batteries to provide stable power on the load terminals when the grid is out or when it is set in off-grid mode. You can use the main house panel as the critical load panel.

Micro-inverters (all by themselves) cost more on larger installs. Fully panel out a 18kpv with 48 panels (4 strings of 12) and your MPPT/inverter part is around $110/panel which is significantly under what a micro-inverter costs. And this is all before you start duplicating inverter pieces to provide power from a battery. Most of the large scale industrical installations do not use micro-inverters, they use even larger string inverters than the consumers use.

Micro-inverters strength is you can add just a few (and the you don't have the high initial big inverter cost) and each of them for the most part are independent of each other so you can lose a few here and there and still have the rest working, where with a hybrid/AIO if you lose the inverter you lose everything, thought you can have MPPT's that run a string (or 2) die and take out part of your panels. Micro-inverters also work well when you cannot have a string of panels pointing the same direction, which makes them better for small installs.

The High frequency (HF) inverters are the new shiny things. LF with a heavy transformer was the old way.
 
Not sure what your question is. You do understand that if you can export to grid it requires being in parallel with grid. Loads on the grid including your home (and all your neighbor's homes) see all supplies in common. You do not really direct your supply to your home as much as you try to zero out your homes load from the overall load.

Grid companies require Anti-islanding for any supplies in parallel with grid. Your island when grid goes down is an inverter no longer in parallel with grid or incapable of parallel with grid.
This is the only one who comes close to seeing my question.

Oh I do understand that if you can export to grid it requires being in parallel with grid, certainly. And I do know all the definitions above, and well understand microinverters. What I don't understand is how there can not be some sort of interlocutor which can monitor the system's AC production and the grid's supply, not just to keep them in phase, but in a blackout to crowbar export to redirect locally, and with restore to rephase the system to the grid.

And in so doing I do not understand how priority can/can't be given to local use first, whether to load or batteries, with residual then going to the grid.

My (interim) goal is demoting the grid for marginal use only. Long-term goal is divorce.
 
No microinverter can handle my planned panels, so that is pretty much out. I am disappointed that there is nothing revolutionary by now though, in addition to my other questions..
 
Basically most all-in-one hybrid inverters will disconnect from the grid when the grid goes down, allowing you to have power when the grid goes down. This requires battery backup regardless of how much solar is available. Mechanical relays have a time delay and usually take around 20ms or so to switch. So you'll see your LED lights blink when that happens. Often people don't include air conditioning on the critical loads panel because AC uses so much energy it would drain the battery in a few hours.
The hybrid inverter usually has remote current sensors (current transformers, or CTs) to measure the whole home consumption. This allows the solar to first cover loads and then start charging the battery. After the battery is charged, excess solar power can be sold to the grid. You'll use battery power after the sun goes down, with the inverter producing just enough power so that the CTs read zero current.

Islanding is a special term that does not apply to powering a house off-grid. Unintentional islanding is when you have a section of the grid that gets disconnected from the rest of the grid, yet has enough power being produced (from solar) to keep that section powered on. The problem is that the voltage isn't well controlled in that situation. So inverters are made to prevent that situation from happening.

Many hybrid inverters with battery backup can accept solar power from pre-existing grid-tied installations. Some may do this by connecting the AC solar to the generator port and connecting the generator port to the grid. When the grid goes down, the hybrid inverter can act as the grid and still get power from the solar inverters. But you wouldn't want to do that when you start out with a hybrid inverter. You'll just connect the string of panels to the MPPT ports.
 
This is the only one who comes close to seeing my question.

Oh I do understand that if you can export to grid it requires being in parallel with grid, certainly. And I do know all the definitions above, and well understand microinverters. What I don't understand is how there can not be some sort of interlocutor which can monitor the system's AC production and the grid's supply, not just to keep them in phase, but in a blackout to crowbar export to redirect locally, and with restore to rephase the system to the grid.

And in so doing I do not understand how priority can/can't be given to local use first, whether to load or batteries, with residual then going to the grid.

My (interim) goal is demoting the grid for marginal use only. Long-term goal is divorce.
This is a long post, sorry, but I think the OP might find it helpful.

My system started as a grid tied Enphase microinverter based system. 6 years ago, hybrid battery systems were way too expensive and my utility still had 1:1 net metering, but they sort of hid the whole time of use thing until my system was installed.

In the first year, I saw what was going on and wished I had batteries. Even though I was producing about 70% of my energy demand, I was only saving 30% because of the time of use billing. The evening energy after the sun went down was costing me near double what I was getting credited for extra power while the sun was shining.

I went AC coupled and added a Schneider XW-Pro inverter. Nope, it was not perfect, and it still has some issues, but it did cut my electric bills to where I was then saving the full 70% I expected. The software is lacking, even with a few updates, it still does not know how to charge properly from extra AC coupled solar. For a full year, I was manually starting a charge cycle when I left for work. It would charge 10 KWHs into batteries, and then discharge that 10 KWHs to the grid during the high time of use block in the evening. The XW-Pro also has the transfer relay built in so it disconnects when it detects a bad grid and powers a backup loads sub panel. My Enphase microinverter system is in the backup loads panel and stays working now when the grid is down.

Electricity is a lot like water. It flows through the easiest path. When the grid is up, any power produced by my Enphase solar panels, or inverted by the XW-Pro inverter from the batteries, is just pushed to the breaker panels in my home. That power will run the loads in the house. But it is a balancing act. If the house needs more power than the inverters are supplying, then the extra power will come in from the grid and the meter counts up consumption. If the Enphase inverters and/or the Schneider inverter are making more power than the house is consuming, the extra power flows out to the grid, and the utility power meter counts this on a separate display as exported power. With my current 1:1 net metering, they just bill me based on the difference between the two. But they have the separate data so they could credit me at half rate or whatever in the future. The new NEM 3.0 plans do this, but I got in under NEM 2.0

The real trick is balancing the battery charging and discharging. I have not been able to see how this is programmed in the newer All In One systems. In my Schneider XW-Pro, it SUCKS! Several of us XW-Pro owners have had to make our own system to control this. When all of my solar was just the Enphase system, this was a very big deal. I have a PLC (Programmable logic Controller) that I coded to take the power readings from the XW-Pro and calculate how much battery charge current would zero the grid power. It updates every 5 seconds. More sun, or less load in the house, and it raises the charge current to virtually zero the power exporting to the grid. Reduced sunlight or an increased load in th house, and it lowers the battery charge current to keep the grid power close to zero still. I have it biased to always leave just a little exporting most of the time. But my electric company didn't like it. So now I make it pull a little grid power every morning before the sun comes up, just so they know my meter is working and I use some power. When the sun goes down, the PLC works in reverse. The XW-Pro can do this if you get the approved "Watt Node" power meter on the grid side. It will adjust the amount of power coming from the batteries to zero out the grid current as long as the battery has enough energy. In my system, the PLC sets the inverter current every 5 seconds. My grid power sits at basically zero all day for weeks at a time, just pulling about 100 watts for an hour each morning, and exporting 20-40 watts the rest of the day.

As I said earlier, my Enphase grid tied microinverter system only made 70% of my power. I have since added 2 arrays of panels that are now DC coupled with Victron charge controllers. They directly charge the battery bank. I also double my battery form the original 360 amp hours to 720 amps hours on a "48 volt" (actually 51.8 volt nominal) system. On days with decent sun, the DC panels alone have the battery fully charged before noon, so I usually have the charging from the AC coupled system turned off now. The extra energy from the Enphase system is back to exporting from 9 am to 4 pm. I get more credit from the utility company, and the DC panels make more than I need to run the house all night.

In a perfect world, the new "All in One" units should be able to do what my system does. And instead of the 7 boxes mounted on my wall, it is just 1 box. Efficiency wise, they do end up pretty close. When I was AC coupled only the round trip efficiency was not great. When I was cycling 10 KWHs a day to the peak rate time, I was using 11 KWHs from the Enphase system, so I was throwing away 1 KWH or 10% loss to "time shift" the power to the night. The loss with the DC panels is now cut about in half to just over 5% from the solar panels to my AC loads a night. The microinverters run my loads while the sun shines, and the DC panels provide all the power that I use at night via the batteries. In the AiO units, they use a high voltage DC bus. The MPPT solar inputs drive that bus. Then the batteries use a bidirectional DC to DC converter that can either charge the battery when the sun is shining, or use battery power to drive the bus when the sun is down. The inverter block is also bidirectional and can either take the DC bus and invert it to drive AC loads, or it can pull AC current to drive the DC bus to chare the batteries. This is all done at high frequency with SPWM which is very efficient. The Schneider inverter I have also uses a bidirectional SPWM block, but it is at the 48 volt battery voltage and it uses a HUGE transformer to convert that to/from the 240 volt AC main input/output.

If I had this to do all over again, I would need to research the firmware in the AiO hybrid inverter. How well can it track and adjust the power to zero the grid in both charging and inverting modes? While the XW-Pro does not do it well on it's own, it was not too hard to control it over Modbus TCP with the PLC. The others on this list are doing it with a Raspberry Pi running Node Red and Home Assistant.
 
I notice alot of ppl here have the EG4 6000XP, which seems to me dated tech compared with the 12kPV. Why?
If you dont need to sell back to grid theres no point paying for the hybrid capability of a 12kpv. If you are worried about running the latest the 12000xp is $2500 and has more pv capability than the $4k+ 18kpv or fb21.
 
This is the only one who comes close to seeing my question.

Oh I do understand that if you can export to grid it requires being in parallel with grid, certainly. And I do know all the definitions above, and well understand microinverters. What I don't understand is how there can not be some sort of interlocutor which can monitor the system's AC production and the grid's supply, not just to keep them in phase, but in a blackout to crowbar export to redirect locally, and with restore to rephase the system to the grid.

And in so doing I do not understand how priority can/can't be given to local use first, whether to load or batteries, with residual then going to the grid.

My (interim) goal is demoting the grid for marginal use only. Long-term goal is divorce.
Priority can not be given to local use first as long as you are in parallel. Think of it like 2 batteries in parallel. Loads are on both of them and you can not really say this load is coming from one battery or the other. Now AC supplies are a bit different because you can increase the potential of one supply over the other and carry more of the load as the other supply carries less. Doing this is not selecting a load though it is selecting a percent of the grids total load.

Loads drive supply.

You can use less grid by removing loads from it. But never think that you can divorce from the grid while still being married to it. Being Off grid with grid as backup (shacking up) is one approach. This is using AIO's that give GAB or UPS like function.

ETA: BTW there are zero export models that use CT (current transformers) to monitor load direction. They can be set such that a constant grid amount is used to help prevent unwanted export. Exactly balancing it to zero all grid import is difficult to achieve because of response time of large loads cycling.
 
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Basically most all-in-one hybrid inverters will disconnect from the grid when the grid goes down, allowing you to have power when the grid goes down.
Ok, so hybrids do keep the lights on when the grid goes down, presuming a battery bank. This was my primary question.

This is a long post, sorry, but I think the OP might find it helpful.
Wow, very informative. I trust SquareD and would have considered the Schneider myself, but for some of the experiences I've read of here, lol.

Nice work on the PLC. Too bad you had to wrangle your own solution.

If you dont need to sell back to grid theres no point paying for the hybrid capability of a 12kpv. If you are worried about running the latest the 12000xp is $2500 and has more pv capability than the $4k+ 18kpv or fb21.
Ah, so implicitly inverters like the 12000xp are off-grid, and those who use them are radically solar. It's not that these are just old tech. This also means the 12000xp et al have a charge controller and there -must- be a battery bank.

You can use less grid by removing loads from it. But never think that you can divorce from the grid while still being married to it. Being Off grid with grid as backup (shacking up) is one approach. This is using AIO's that give GAB or UPS like function.

ETA: BTW there are zero export models that use CT (current transformers) to monitor load direction. They can be set such that a constant grid amount is used to help prevent unwanted export. Exactly balancing it to zero all grid import is difficult to achieve because of response time of large loads cycling.
'Shacking up'... I like it. I'll research GAB and UPS, and will def go with an inverter that has CBs,

I take it that AIOs are not necessarily "built around being cheap" as I've read.

These houses will be certified NextGen and Net Zero Energy. Owing to the thermal profile of ICF I must downsize the HVAC by 40%-60% to match. I'll be installing an air-to-water heat pump in each which does hot or chilled water for space and DHW dynamically, with a CoP approaching 5. China makes these primarily for Europe, but I've installed one at my house by attaching the two 120v legs to L and N. This works because everything is immediately converted to DC and motors are controlled by PWM. Unfortunately the terrible brand I bought (Micoe) can not dynamically switch between hydronic and DHW. The outputs simply do not switch like they're supposed to. Micoe says it's not a firmware problem and basically, 'sucks to be me'. My next move is to get a transformer to convert 120-N-120 to 240-N and see if that fixes it. My home is my test-bed for houses I build.

I will be intensely inspected since I am so different so whatever heat pump I buy will have to have that UL or ETL. I've found the Chinese factory for Arctic heat pumps and will likely buy them in Red China. Arctic has a good rep.

I plan to install 6,600w of panels on each house and, because there doesn't seem to be a 'Net Zero Energy' cert, I'll probably have to settle for 'Net Zero Energy Ready'. I'm not adding batteries, but I want to give the homebuyers the option with a hybrid inverter, ideally a Chinese brand like Megarevo (aka LuxPower/EG4/etc) if it has that UL or ETL.
 

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