EcoFlow DELTA 1300 (Plug-N-Play)

[pnwsun]

Here is a re-post of the current info on the DELTA from the old thread so we can continue discussion.

EcoFlow DELTA - Kickstarter Page

This is a newer company (2016) although they have already produced a successful smaller product called the 'River' sold at Home Depot, Best Buy and Amazon. DELTA is their full size that has just been released.

Interesting things I see:

1) AC Wall charge at 1200W - less than 2 hours for a full recharge.
2) Kickstarter Supporters get the unit for a discount price with a LIFETIME Battery Warranty plus stretch goal goodies
3) Built-in MPPT for solar charging
4) Pure Sine Wave inverter at 1800W (3300W Surge) with 6 AC Outlets

Other Specs: 1300 Wh Lithium battery, 30.9 lbs, 4x USB ports (2 fast charge), 2x 60-watt USB-C, 12V port

How does it compare to the competition?

EcoFlow DELTA 1300
AC Wall Charge Time - 2 Hours
1800W (3300W) AC
6 AC Outlets
30lbs
Availability: Dec 2019
$899 (Current Kickstarter Price)


Bluetti 1500
AC Wall Charge Time - 10 Hours
1000W (No Surge Capacity Listed) AC
2 AC Outlets
37.9 lbs
Availability: Now
$1,150


Goal Zero YETI 1400
AC Wall Charge time- 25 hours
1500W (3000W) AC
2 AC Outlets
43lbs
Availability: Now
$1,799


In addition to the Lifetime Battery Warranty, they offer kickstarter supporters 'stretch goal items' currently: DELTA waterproof cover, silicon dampers and two car battery cables (one to charge the DELTA from the car, the other to charge the car battery from the DELTA). The price has already gone up from $799 and might go up again before the campaign is up.

 

[pnwsun]

DELTA Solar Panel Sizing

Most PV inverters and charge controllers that I'm aware of do not have any Over-Voltage protection on the PV input. Meaning if you put too much voltage in, you will fry your unit. Amps are easy to use an inline breaker or fuse typically. Something else to be aware of in regards to PV module operation: A Clear Sunny COLD day will be the best production and can spike the PV voltage. For this reason PV system designers typically take the VOC of the series string and then multiple by 1.25 for a safety factor for those few Sunny Cold days that pop up.

For me personally, I'm not usually a fan of 'flexible' and 'foldable' PV modules due to their lack of long term reliability. I like reputable PV manufacturers that offer a standard industry warranty on a framed, glass enclosed, durable PV module. I also like to support North American PV manufacture when possible (it can be difficult). EcoFlow wants to sell you PV modules with the unit however I opted not to for this reason.

PV module options that should work well:

Heliene 180W 36 cell Mono
Short Circuit Current (ISC) : 9.74A
Open Circuit Voltage (VOC) : 23.79V
Standard Warranty - 10 Year workmanship 25 year linear power output to 80%
Made in North America

(2) of these in series would be 360W input. 23.79 VOC * 2 = 47.58V * 1.25 (safety) = 59.48V


Trina Tallmax Plus 380W 72 cell Mono
Short Circuit Current (ISC) : 9.94A
Open Circuit Voltage (VOC) : 48.8V
Standard Warranty - 10 Year workmanship 25 year linear power output to 80%

48.8 VOC * 1.25 (safety) = 61V

Only problem: I have not been able to find a solar distributor who carries either of these yet.


Rich Solar 190W 36 cell Mono
Short Circuit Current (ISC) : 9.86A
Open Circuit Voltage (VOC) : 24.3V
Warranty: 5 Year workmanship 25 year power output to 80%

(2) of these in series would be 380W input. 24.3 VOC * 2 = 48.6V * 1.25 (safety) = 60.75V

My one hesitation is that 5 year material warranty, the PV industry standard is a 10 year material warranty. Some high quality panels even have a 25 year material warranty to match the power output warranty (Panasonic HIT+ series are some of my favorite).

That said, I know Will has done some testing on various 12V nominal PV modules and he did like the Rich Solar. That could be the way to go for the Delta.

Any other good PV module choices you guys can come up with?

 

[gnubie]

Yuck. Those horrible combo sockets they have put on it for everyone outside of North America. Who ever came up with those things should be shot.

 

[pnwsun]

gnubie -

Are you talking about the International Version?

 

[gnubie]

Yes. Those sockets are horrible. They don't grip the plug properly amongst numerous other problems.

 

[Carvers]

Yes. Those sockets are horrible. They don't grip the plug properly amongst numerous other problems.

Interesting as I ordered the smaller one for the Netherlands, what are those other problems?

 

[Will Prowse]

Here is a re-post of the current info on the DELTA from the old thread so we can continue discussion.

EcoFlow DELTA - Kickstarter Page

This is a newer company (2016) although they have already produced a successful smaller product called the 'River' sold at Home Depot, Best Buy and Amazon. DELTA is their full size that has just been released.

Interesting things I see:

1) AC Wall charge at 1200W - less than 2 hours for a full recharge.
2) Kickstarter Supporters get the unit for a discount price with a LIFETIME Battery Warranty plus stretch goal goodies
3) Built-in MPPT for solar charging
4) Pure Sine Wave inverter at 1800W (3300W Surge) with 6 AC Outlets

Other Specs: 1300 Wh Lithium battery, 30.9 lbs, 4x USB ports (2 fast charge), 2x 60-watt USB-C, 12V port

How does it compare to the competition?

EcoFlow DELTA 1300
AC Wall Charge Time - 2 Hours
1800W (3300W) AC
6 AC Outlets
30lbs
Availability: Dec 2019
$899 (Current Kickstarter Price)


Bluetti 1500
AC Wall Charge Time - 10 Hours
1000W (No Surge Capacity Listed) AC
2 AC Outlets
37.9 lbs
Availability: Now
$1,150


Goal Zero YETI 1400
AC Wall Charge time- 25 hours
1500W (3000W) AC
2 AC Outlets
43lbs
Availability: Now
$1,799


In addition to the Lifetime Battery Warranty, they offer kickstarter supporters 'stretch goal items' currently: DELTA waterproof cover, silicon dampers and two car battery cables (one to charge the DELTA from the car, the other to charge the car battery from the DELTA). The price has already gone up from $799 and might go up again before the campaign is up.

I have no opinion till I can test it. They have other products with not so great reviews on Amazon. I wouldn't get too excited just yet. Let's get some tested first. I do like the battery size for the price though.

I have been disappointed too many times by solar generators to get excited

I don't mind the international plug. I think they work well. I must have been lucky.

And what is the open circuit voltage input limit of the device? I can't seem to find it

Common fault points for these types of units is quality of input plugs, BMS, temp management, inverter output etc. I'll wait till we can test it to draw a conclusion

 

[Will Prowse]

Looks pretty good actually. Except for the charge cycle life. They are really pushing those cells. I wonder if it will have similar issues as their past models.

 

[gnubie]

Interesting as I ordered the smaller one for the Netherlands, what are those other problems?

Some countries have safety shutters on their outlets, the UK for example, so that you can't stick things in the supply pins without an earth pin being engaged. Those sockets have none of that. You can even fit plugs in them the wrong way around, ie transpose active / live / line with neutral and stick plugs in off centre so the earth pin goes where it shouldn't. Plenty of youtube clips to see about their various failings (search death adaptor for heaps of examples) if you want to look further but the executive summary is they are a hazard.

We have become used to thinking of 110/220 VAC as being safe, but it's only safe because there are multiple layers of protection built in. Defeating several by putting these crap sockets on things just isn't on. The product might be otherwise great, just do people living outside of North America a favour and put proper sockets on it.

 

[wordsmith]

I pledged for one of the "super early bird" 1300 models. I backed the original River unit on Indigogo a couple of years ago and got two of them. Personally, I've never had any issues with these units, and I've pushed their limitations a great many times. They've always performed very well for me, not just recharging devices, but running an Edgestar fridge/freezer, and a single cup Melita coffee maker.
The price point was a major factor with Delta, as it was first offered for $799, plus, as a River owner, I received an extra $100 rebate, bringing the price down to $699. If the unit delivers even half what is promised, I think it's an excellent deal for my use.
There's lots to like in the specs (I notice they've adopted Will's favorite connector, the XT60, for solar input, so at least I can make my own cables without buying proprietary plugs). The only thing I have a problem with is the lack of expandability. You've got no way to expand the current storage capability. And if you're using that full 1800 watts on the inverter, your battery's going to go "poof" pretty quick.
As with all crowdfunding endeavors, we just have to sit back and wait to see if it's a winner or not. But based on my prior experience with the River, and the price point they were offering the Delta at, I think it will be a solid performer.

 

[pnwsun]

Will -

I'm very much looking forward to your complete test and review of the DELTA. I know there are a couple units already out for 'testing and review'.

Here is one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4oJOAreLCc

I know your test and review will be much more comprehensive than this guy, I can't wait. I agree that they are pushing those cells pretty good just on the fast recharge alone. The Lifetime Battery Warranty is what pushed me over the edge to order a unit on kickstarter. I wanted to get your opinion and thoughts on the X-Stream Recharge Technology. From the page: "This technology provides the fastest recharge rate on the market, working 10x times faster than competing brands of battery-powered generators. This allows DELTA to be fully recharged in under two hours using any regular wall outlet. When using a competitor product, you have a bulky adapter, which converts electricity from alternating current (AC) to direct current (DC). Charging your product requires you to carry a cable with a big brick converter on it and recharges your product very slowly. However, with X-Stream, we’ve found a way to charge DELTA directly with AC, with only a simple cable and no brick converter."

I'm sure you saw in the spec sheet the PV input parameters, here they are for everyone's easy reference:

DELTA Solar Charge Input
400W
10-65V
10A Max

These are the specs that I based my 3 module recommendations on. Interestingly, on that youtube review as he gives a closeup on the PV input it says "65V 12A Max!". That would open up module options some more, I will need to wait until the unit ships in Dec to be sure.


wordsmith -

I totally agree, expandability via connecting to a supplemental battery appropriately is something they could improve upon in the future. I'm glad they did not include that feature as half baked such as the Inergy Apex (reference to Will's test and review of that unit). The other thing I would like to see from all these manufacturers is a higher powered solar PV input. The DELTA VOC max input of 65V is higher than all the others though which is great.


Stretch Goal Update

They just released the next 'gift' for kickstarter supporters: A solar charger cable - MC4 to XT60. Based on their rate of growth I don't think there will be any problem reaching that goal (and maybe another beyond that).

 

[pnwsun]

Another testing video just popped up on youtube. He uses a variety of shop tools on the unit.

Solar Power Welding

With the resistive load of the Mig welder, he was pulling 2,000W - 2,500W from the DELTA. I don't think it could sustain that though for the duration of 30 min, as it was not designed for that high of draw. Impressive still.

The DELTA had trouble with the startup surge on the circular saw. 1800W saw means the inductive startup surge is likely 3600W+, beyond spec. I think the answer here might be to use a soft start device. Something like this:

https://www.raymondinnovations.com/

This device uses a resistive load for a second to reduce the startup surge amps of an inductive motor. I suppose another solution might be an inline capacitor to increase the power factor, however I'm not aware of such a device for sale in a plug-n-play operation.

Of course the tool manufacturers also sell cordless saws, someone could just recharge the battery from the DELTA. A little less power efficient to use the inverter to charge batteries although very convenient.

 

[Catastrofe]

Here’s another video:

 

[wordsmith]

Watched both new videos, but was a little more impressed by the first one, mostly because I think his use of the power tools represented a little more realistic challenge to the claims EcoFlow has made for the Delta. Charging his baja board in the second video at about 90 watts didn't seem to be much of a stretch for an inverter rated for 1800 watts. I'm also a little confused as to why the Delta should charge it faster than a standard wall outlet, especially as the board uses a brick transformer to charge. Any ideas?
He also mentioned earlier in the video about chaining Deltas together to get more capacity. According to EcoFlow, there's no provision to chain Deltas together (unless you plug the AC output of one into the AC input of another. Which, I suppose, could work and the first unit would charge from the second, as long as you kept the draw below the 1200 watts charge limit. Seems like a bit of a waste, though, by the time you add in all the DC/AC/DC conversions.) I'm thinking his dreams of running his entire apartment off this product might be a bit optimistic too. Still, you have to admire his enthusiasm. And he was spot on in his observation that EcoFlow puts a lot of effort into packaging their products really well for shipping. The two River units I received, as well as a 50 watt solar panel, were some of the best packed items I've ever had shipped to me.

 

[b.james]

A Clear Sunny COLD day will be the best production and can spike the PV voltage. For this reason PV system designers typically take the VOC of the series string and then multiple by 1.25 for a safety factor for those few Sunny Cold days that pop up.

I have found that partly cloudy days cause more problems . When a cloud passes over output drops , the panel cools , so in its cooled state, when the cloud passes, the panels volts output shoots up.

 

[jobu01]

I have found that partly cloudy days cause more problems . When a cloud passes over output drops , the panel cools , so in its cooled state, when the cloud passes, the panels volts output shoots up.

Cloud edge/Edge-of-Cloud effect, causes enhanced solar irradiance which can spike the PV power output higher than nominal STC test conditions. I think it's more refraction of some sort than temperature change. I only read an abstract and not the whole paper.

 

[mxp]

Hi,
Thanks for sharing some suggestions on the PV modules.
I am also a recent EcoFlow Delta 1300 backer, looking to purchase 2 solar panels to charge the Delta.

Based on your list below, would you say that the Richsolar 190W module is the cheapest option, albeit the short 5yr warranty?
Found the price on Amazon (assumed Amazon being the cheapest supplier): https://www.amazon.com/Richsolar-Ef...190w+36+cell+mono&qid=1570408806&sr=8-1-fkmr2

Thanks for any other suggestions or advice!
NOTE: Should I be concerned that using 2 panels in series to 60V is "pushing" the solar charging to the max on the Delta?
My fear is that if this is done on a regular basis, it would quicken the wear and tear of the Delta unit. What do you think?

DELTA Solar Panel Sizing

Most PV inverters and charge controllers that I'm aware of do not have any Over-Voltage protection on the PV input. Meaning if you put too much voltage in, you will fry your unit. Amps are easy to use an inline breaker or fuse typically. Something else to be aware of in regards to PV module operation: A Clear Sunny COLD day will be the best production and can spike the PV voltage. For this reason PV system designers typically take the VOC of the series string and then multiple by 1.25 for a safety factor for those few Sunny Cold days that pop up.

For me personally, I'm not usually a fan of 'flexible' and 'foldable' PV modules due to their lack of long term reliability. I like reputable PV manufacturers that offer a standard industry warranty on a framed, glass enclosed, durable PV module. I also like to support North American PV manufacture when possible (it can be difficult). EcoFlow wants to sell you PV modules with the unit however I opted not to for this reason.

PV module options that should work well:

Heliene 180W 36 cell Mono
Short Circuit Current (ISC) : 9.74A
Open Circuit Voltage (VOC) : 23.79V
Standard Warranty - 10 Year workmanship 25 year linear power output to 80%
Made in North America

(2) of these in series would be 360W input. 23.79 VOC * 2 = 47.58V * 1.25 (safety) = 59.48V


Trina Tallmax Plus 380W 72 cell Mono
Short Circuit Current (ISC) : 9.94A
Open Circuit Voltage (VOC) : 48.8V
Standard Warranty - 10 Year workmanship 25 year linear power output to 80%

48.8 VOC * 1.25 (safety) = 61V

Only problem: I have not been able to find a solar distributor who carries either of these yet.


Rich Solar 190W 36 cell Mono
Short Circuit Current (ISC) : 9.86A
Open Circuit Voltage (VOC) : 24.3V
Warranty: 5 Year workmanship 25 year power output to 80%

(2) of these in series would be 380W input. 24.3 VOC * 2 = 48.6V * 1.25 (safety) = 60.75V

My one hesitation is that 5 year material warranty, the PV industry standard is a 10 year material warranty. Some high quality panels even have a 25 year material warranty to match the power output warranty (Panasonic HIT+ series are some of my favorite).

That said, I know Will has done some testing on various 12V nominal PV modules and he did like the Rich Solar. That could be the way to go for the Delta.

Any other good PV module choices you guys can come up with?

 

[gnubie]

VoC of 2 in series is 48.6v. That's safe for that unit in reasonable temperatures. There is not enough headroom if you plan on using it in a cold environment (we are talking proper cold here, not 6c).

 

[pnwsun]

mxp - Absolutely, happy to help. I think the (2) Rich Solar 190 watt modules in series is probably the best option. As I mentioned, I don't even know where I can buy those other 2 options right now.

Connecting panels in series on the higher end of the Voltage limit is the best way to do it, more efficient and you save on wiring compared to parallel. I calculated a generous safety factor (1.25 is the industry standard) for the modules. The DELTA has a max input of 65 V.

(2) of the Rich Solar 190W modules in series: 24.3 VOC * 2 = 48.6V * 1.25 (safety) = 60.75V still well under the 65 V.

I would have no hesitation with this configuration at any temperature.

 

[pnwsun]

8 days left before the kickstarter is over.

EcoFlow DELTA - Kickstarter Page

If you have been thinking about it, you still have time to grab one with the discount price, Lifetime battery warranty and extra stretch goal goodies.

They just announced a new stretch goal: an Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) built into the unit. Could be interesting to use on a regular basis for keeping sensitive electronics running. We just had our first snow here and a power outage that came with it. I wished I had my DELTA already.

Residents of California are dealing with massive blackouts right now, planned by the utility PG&E. High winds caused downed power lines to start the worst wildfire they had in history last year which incinerated the town of 'Paradise'. So now they are in prevention mode trying to maintain the existing grid.