Economical LiFePO4 car battery replacement?

[BarracudaBob]

I was just looking into the a plastic battery box for a similar project.

 

[OzSolar]

The problem to me is finding a BMS (and the cost of it) that can handle a 600A draw. Personally, I've never seen a BMS commercially available that would deliver that much amperage but I'm sure somebody makes one somewhere. I'm guessing it would cost more than the combined cost of the cells though. We're in a situation now where the price of these cells has fallen to $23.50 ea. If you're someone who has several vehicles, tractors, generators, lawnmowers, etc., how much are you going to spend on lead acid batteries per year in the future with the cost of them going up so much? If a typical lead-acid battery lasts 4 - 5 years, you might need to figure on budgeting a few hundred dollars per year for lead-acid replacements as they age out.

My plan is to run these cells without a BMS and then remove the bus bars to do a top balance once a year if necessary. You can also easily check the individual cell voltages with a volt meter at any time if you leave the studs exposed. I've only put one of these batteries on a generator so far but it has worked great and the no-load voltage loss over time without a trickle charger has been next to nothing. Pic is attached. You can get the M8 battery terminal adapters on Amazon really cheap. View attachment 264328

Getting ready to go down the same road with the same cells but I am using 200AMP JK BMS from AliExpress. It's supposedly is rated for 350 amps for a few seconds which is all I'll ever need.

Most of the the BatteryHookup.com listings specifically mention if the cells do or don't include buss bars but this listing doesn't mention them. I'm guessing they don't, can you confirm.

PS I'm glad to see someone else using serrated head locknuts.

 

[PLCdude]

I'm wondering if these cells from Battery Hookup could be a legit LiFePO4 car battery replacement?

https://batteryhookup.com/products/new-case-with-6x-3-2v-74ah-lifepo4-prismatic-cells

They were originally intended for 12V starter batteries and have a 600A discharge rate for 10 seconds which should be enough for most cars. You might need to put multiple banks in parallel for a diesel truck though. At $30 ea. x 4 = $120, you're looking at the same price the average lead acid car battery costs these days (and some are way more than that) but these should last 20+ years where an average lead acid car battery is scrap in 5 years.

I realize the big drawback is low temp charging in cold climates though. You would need some sort of heat wrap around it in those situations but if you're in an area where it doesn't get below freezing at night, would this work? I'm guessing you'd probably need some 1"x1/4" thick copper bus bars between cells to handle that much current but those would be easy to make from a piece of flat bar.

The other thing I'm thinking about is the availability of car batteries during a time of war or during a time of hyperinflation. As expensive as they are now, what will they be then? In that situation, you could just make sure you didn't drive the car when it was below freezing if you didn't have a way to heat the cells. The other great thing about these cells is that you could use them in your solar storage bank until you needed them in your car because they work out to only $.12 per watt hour.

I regards to a BMS, from what I gather, you could wire them so they could discharge without the BMS and charge with the BMS. In a crisis situation, I'm thinking you might not even worry about a BMS. If you checked the cells and top balanced them every few months, would you even need a BMS? I would think the average car alternator would provide the correct voltage to charge these since their full voltage is only slightly above a standard car battery (3.2V x 4 = 12.8V).

I’m using 4 of those cells as starting battery for 3.3l 1971 diesel ford backhoe. It works great and cranks better than original huge 8d battery .
I was able to start it for the first time ever in -10F without having to use starting fluid.
That was impossible even with huge lead acid.

 

[Vigo]

I recently opened a cheap lifepo4 motorcycle starting battery which had begun self-discharging and found it had NO bms capable of protecting from anything, just a balancing board. One of the pouch cells had swollen, although not dramatically enough to pop the case open.

I've been fine with using lifepo4 as starter battery in my tractor because i dont operate that thing below freezing anyway, but my ideas of using lifepo4 as a CAR starter battery have all involved homebrew protection schemes that raise the hurdle just far enough that i havent bothered to attempt it yet.

I do have one lifepo4 installed 'straight up' with no extras as a starting battery in a van, but again it's an 'above freezing only' sort of situation.

 

[supersignman]

Getting ready to go down the same road with the same cells but I am using 200AMP JK BMS from AliExpress. It's supposedly is rated for 350 amps for a few seconds which is all I'll ever need.

Most of the the BatteryHookup.com listings specifically mention if the cells do or don't include buss bars but this listing doesn't mention them. I'm guessing they don't, can you confirm.

PS I'm glad to see someone else using serrated head locknuts.

Those cells from Battery Hookup did not include bus bars. I made some from copper plate. I believe it was .040" thick and 1" wide. I used two stacked on top of each other. My dad is a retired engineer and he calculated the thickness I would need for approx 400A for 10 seconds (I think). They are probably overkill for any normal car though.

I had a very difficult time drilling the copper at first though because the drill bit would catch and twist it up due to the softness of the metal. I figured out that if I clamped a stack of bus bars in between two pieces of wood and then drilled down through the wood, they would stay in place.

I'll have to check out that BMS. At the current price of $23.50 ea. x 4 = $94.00 for a battery that should last 20 years... this is a no-brainer to me.

 

[defeedme]

it's been over 2 weeks now and this free, extra 100ah redodo-bird lifepo4 mini i had laying around is working better than any other SLA or AGM battery i've ever had in this 2010 mazda 3 gt.. my gas milage even went up 50 more miles on the tank! (got 2 of em free because the packaging was damaged by amazon) - i live in florida so never worry about cold..

 

[supersignman]

it's been over 2 weeks now and this free, extra 100ah redodo-bird lifepo4 mini i had laying around is working better than any other SLA or AGM battery i've ever had in this 2010 mazda 3 gt.. my gas milage even went up 50 more miles on the tank! (got 2 of em free because the packaging was damaged by amazon) - i live in florida so never worry about cold..

There should be a forum rule against Floridians commenting on the weather during the month of January! We're freezing to death in Alabama right now and everybody is in a bad mood.

Keep us updated on how that battery works out in the long run. A few people have said that when the BMS disconnects due to the battery being at 100% it could cause a voltage spike from the alternator but it looks like that hasn't been an issue for you so far. It might be interesting for you to get one of those cheap cigarette lighter volt meters so you could keep an eye on the voltage as you're driving. This one is $8.99 and has some USB charging ports in it too: VOLT METER

 

[Vigo]

Ironically I have purchased some voltmeter/usb things that worked ok (but were too damn bright!) and one that just read 12.5v no matter what, so while yes they exist i wouldn't be entirely confident you'll get one you actually like on the first try. This modern world..

I bought a cigarette lighter doohickey with a voltmeter and temperature readout, extended the temp probe to reach the upper radiator neck, hardwired it to power and ground and it now serves as the voltmeter and temp gauge on my small Kubota!

 

[defeedme]

This one is $8.99 and has some USB charging ports in it too: VOLT METER

just ordered it! ironically my AirCon compressor died yesterday, not sure if it's related to the battery but the car is 15 years old so.. just ordered a new compressor on ebay for $100 - other than that battery is still working great! P.S. i swam my laps outdoors today hehee

 

[defeedme]

There should be a forum rule against Floridians commenting on the weather during the month of January! We're freezing to death in Alabama right now and everybody is in a bad mood.

Keep us updated on how that battery works out in the long run. A few people have said that when the BMS disconnects due to the battery being at 100% it could cause a voltage spike from the alternator but it looks like that hasn't been an issue for you so far. It might be interesting for you to get one of those cheap cigarette lighter volt meters so you could keep an eye on the voltage as you're driving. This one is $8.99 and has some USB charging ports in it too: VOLT METER

plugged it in and it registers between 13.3 and 14.2 mostly around 14 without anything else plugged in and when i plug stuff in it goes down a little

 

[supersignman]

plugged it in and it registers between 13.3 and 14.2 mostly around 14 without anything else plugged in and when i plug stuff in it goes down a little

That's right in the range where it needs to be. As long as it's not shooting up over 14.6 I think you're golden. BTW, nighttime temps here next week are going to start with a 1. I don't see how folks up north handle that on a regular basis. I want to live where 50 is considered cold and 40 is an emergency.

 

[defeedme]

That's right in the range where it needs to be. As long as it's not shooting up over 14.6 I think you're golden. BTW, nighttime temps here next week are going to start with a 1. I don't see how folks up north handle that on a regular basis. I want to live where 50 is considered cold and 40 is an emergency.

i'm a new yorker and still have thick blood, it's funny watching all the floridians freaking out when it's 50 hahaha

 

[JerryK]

BTW, nighttime temps here next week are going to start with a 1. I don't see how folks up north handle that on a regular basis. I want to live where 50 is considered cold and 40 is an emergency.

Correction nighttime and day time temps will continue to being -0f and colder, at least here in MN until at least next Wednesday and I agree give me 50-70f year around would be perfect.
Cant imagine a lithium starting battery here

 

[defeedme]

Correction nighttime and day time temps will continue to being -0f and colder, at least here in MN until at least next Wednesday and I agree give me 50-70f year around would be perfect.
Cant imagine a lithium starting battery here

H6/Group-48 Lithium Car Battery

Antigravity H6/Group-48 Hi-Power lightweight Lithium Automotive Battery with RESTART Technology. Replace lead/acid battery in Hi-Performance Cars.

antigravitybatteries.com

these are the best you can get and will work anywhere, but you pay a premium..

 

[JerryK]

these are the best you can get and will work anywhere, but you pay a premium..

I skimmed the data and did not see operating temps. In this climate we can see -25f to -30+ and that is not including the windchill factor.

 

[defeedme]

brohams if you consistently get temps in the low teens and single digits it's time to move tf out of there lol

 

[JerryK]

-4f won't cut it here that is warmer than our high temps coming

edit: Jan 19th current actual temps, not wind chills which is actually -35f now, they will drop further yet this morning and tonight will be even colder, and these are nowhere near records or abnormal for January. These northern states including North Dakota, Wisconsin ect would have a difficult time depending on current offerings of these batteries when a healthy flooded lead wet cell battery can handle -80f+ without worries.

 

[supersignman]

I wanted to update this thread and let everyone know that after a lot of searching I found some inexpensive nickel plated copper bus bars (currently $1 ea.) that will work with these cells when configured into a 12 volt car battery. The only problem is that you will need to drill out the holes with a 3/8" drill bit but they drill easy.

Amazon bus bars

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

They make a Lithium-Ion car battery, not so sure about multiple uses though.

I have an" AntiGravity" brand Lithium-Ion battery in my Mini Cooper. Since it may spend a long period of not being driven, this has allowed me to not use a trickle charger. It has set in storage for more than 2 months and still started right up. The slower self discharge was one of the main reasons I bought it. It has a built in emergency jump start feature as well, just push a button on the battery (or on the small key fob) and then start the car. I have not yet needed this feature so I cannot tell you is it really works or not. Not a big deal on my weekend toy. Not so sure I am ready to put one in my daily driver. They claim a better self discharge rate than FLA battery and a life span that is up to 4 times longer.

The operating warnings state:

OPERATING TEMPERATURE. This product is designed to working ambient temperatures between -–10°C to 60°C (–4°F to 140°F). Do not operate outside of temperature ranges. Do not jump start a frozen battery. Do not charge a Frozen Battery. Only charge within the range of 0°C to 45°C (32°F to 113°F) Discontinue use of product immediately if the battery becomes excessively warm.

COMPATIBILITY. The product is only compatible with 12-volt stock systems in vehicles. Do not attempt to use product with any other type of batteries or in series or parallel with another battery, or interior electronics could be damaged. Use with, or Jump starting other battery chemistries may result in explosion, injury, death or property damage. Contact the battery manufacturer prior to attempting to jumpstart the battery. Do not jump start a battery if you are unsure of the battery’s specific chemistry or voltage.



Jeff

I have antigravity as well it has completed 4yrs on my car this month

 

[Deveak]

it's been over 2 weeks now and this free, extra 100ah redodo-bird lifepo4 mini i had laying around is working better than any other SLA or AGM battery i've ever had in this 2010 mazda 3 gt.. my gas milage even went up 50 more miles on the tank! (got 2 of em free because the packaging was damaged by amazon) - i live in florida so never worry about cold..

Should work fine in mild weather but I foresee problems in a hot engine bay in Florida. Heck even mild weather its probably 100 in there.
Maybe a remote battery kit, somewhere in the cab. I know some people have really good luck with LFP in a prius since its not used for starting and is kept in the rear of the car. LTO would also be a really good fit. Better temperature tolerances and cranking ability. I remember a poster on her saying he did it. No BMS either.