Effect of the new tarrifs. Will it actually change buyer behavior?

[Will Prowse]

I think that even with the new tarrifs, I'll still prefer Chinese solar equipment because it's higher quality and has the features I want.

America is so far behind in this industry that people are going to be willing to pay more for the superior product. And there's a good chance that the Chinese products will still be cheaper.

All of the "made in USA" solar products that have American flags all over their marketing and always seem to be "owned by veterans" are only assembled here. it's still a Chinese sourced product.

Usually the high price of American goods does not reflect quality. Its just good marketing. America does not manufacture these products.

A large factor is that America has not secured supply chains or processing capacity for the raw materials to make solar equipment. China currently processes 90% of the globes rare earth elements. They also have solid supply chains. America does not.

Eg4 is proposing to create products here in America, but where are the raw materials and components sourced from? If they can extract resources, process them, manufacture the board components and assemble here in America, that would be incredible!

But I'll believe it when I see it. If everyone is saying their product is "made in USA" and they are using fets and capacitors from China, that's just ridiculous. I won't call something made in America till it is sourced processed and 100% manufactured in America. Till then, it's made elsewhere.

And if something is manufactured here in America, I question how good it will be. Most of the assembled in America products have very low quality. I think people will end up just buying Chinese in the end unless something major changes.

 

[Mattb4]

It would change my behavior. I have only so much I can afford to spend and if something were to cost more than I either find an alternative or go without.

I buy based on perceived maximum value (cost, quality, availability and form factor as part of the equation). If that means imported from Japan, China, Canada or Texas than that is where the order goes.

The discussion about whether we need to encourage more manufacturing in the USA and about unfair trade practices are great for idle moments but out of my control otherwise.

Yes the USA did shoot themselves in the butt when Clinton and Bush gave unfair trading preferences to China in a misguided approach to fight communism. You could argue it started with Nixon.

 

[robbob2112]

All about labor costs and regulation costs related to environment and worker treatment....

if and only if they implemented good QC and were unbending on it so nothing was produced that wasn't perfect would something made here be worth the money.... but it can be produced elsewhere cheaper with at or the same QC - depends on the cost at the end to pay for it....

Where I work it is difficult to get funding for anything that doesn't cause the bottom line to increase -- never mind it would reduce customer churn or improve customer experience....

Something to proactively monitor and fix issues? how much net profit does it have? zero or negative because you have a constant spend to fix the issues discovered before the customer complains?? not funded.

I bought a bunch of stuff off temu recently - 1/2 of it was junk and I asked for a refund. Some of it wasn't up to specs advertised - return free and refund -- but about 1/3rd of the items - good quality for dollars paid .... dollars paid bought harbor freight or better quality tools for similar prices --
Case in point - bushing remove and install kit - a bunch of disc with a hole in the center, plated black and the edges ground along with a threaded rod to attach to a slide hammer - I have needed one about a dozen times over the years and always made due with a socket - but for $30 I have a whole kit for next time

 

[YRanch]

I buy and use Midnite Solar products. The newer Rosie and brand new Little Rosie are as close to made in America as you could ever get. Literally nothing could match Will’s test down to the capacitor or sourced gold etching or lithium within a battery. Their AIO is sourced in China with their specs and substantial parts within are their own manufacture. I would imagine that a China sourced inverter could not be labeled ‘made in China’ based on some parts sourced in other countries. This is a World economy now.

 

[windsurfer]

I will and do go out of my way to support quality made in the USA products. Especially if they show significant innovation.

However, EG4 management would have to drastically change their behavior before I would purchase any of their products irrespective of the country of origin.

 

[Chispas]

And if something is manufactured here in America, I question how good it will be. Most of the assembled in America products have very low quality

As a young apprentice fitter Starret were a byword for quality & competitive pricing, even today they’re considered the best for holesaws & bandsaw blades but they’ve been manufactured abroad for decades. Morningstar & Midnite still make great off grid products but the prices! They even make Victron seem reasonable, at least here in Europe. Globalisation can’t be undone, it’s like the magic smoke, once out, it’s never going back in. The decision to offshore manufacturing was made in Wall St & the City Of London & those in power in Washington & Downing Street just greased the rails.
Edit. In Europe lack of investment meant that once dominant manufacturers, like Rover , Triumph motorcycles, Hotpoint & others were completely left behind when Japanese manufacturers entered the market.

 

[fuzzmunky415]

I'm more driven by value (not necessarily cheapest!) which is a balance between quality and cost. I also need compliance, so UL listings and some sense of serviceability factors into the equation. Naturally, I'd prefer USA made, and if 'we' were to be competitive while also providing value, it would be easier to choose USA made. I think this tech will evolve, and much of what we quibble about now insofar as compliance, where caps are made, etc. will seem humorous to us in a few years.

edit: so I guess my answer is no...we've seen prices plummet enough that loads of bootleg systems are being built by hobbyists, to meet an unmet need for time-shifting our photons on our terms, so there's already enough cushion to absorb 10-20 percent tariffs, despite our reflexive attitude towards them.

 

[seneysolar]

I think that even with the new tarrifs, I'll still prefer Chinese solar equipment because it's higher quality and has the features I want.

America is so far behind in this industry that people are going to be willing to pay more for the superior product. And there's a good chance that the Chinese products will still be cheaper.

All of the "made in USA" solar products that have American flags all over their marketing and always seem to be "owned by veterans" are only assembled here. it's still a Chinese sourced product.

Usually the high price of American goods does not reflect quality. Its just good marketing. America does not manufacture these products.

A large factor is that America has not secured supply chains or processing capacity for the raw materials to make solar equipment. China currently processes 90% of the globes rare earth elements. They also have solid supply chains. America does not.

Eg4 is proposing to create products here in America, but where are the raw materials and components sourced from? If they can extract resources, process them, manufacture the board components and assemble here in America, that would be incredible!

But I'll believe it when I see it. If everyone is saying their product is "made in USA" and they are using fets and capacitors from China, that's just ridiculous. I won't call something made in America till it is sourced processed and 100% manufactured in America. Till then, it's made elsewhere.

And if something is manufactured here in America, I question how good it will be. Most of the assembled in America products have very low quality. I think people will end up just buying Chinese in the end unless something major changes.

I think the benefits of "Assembled in USA" are going to be worth it even if they start with global sourced parts.

1. Quality Control - If an American company has to focus on individual parts, source, handle, install and function check something before selling, it will be a better product in the end. If you are the first one to open the box and try it off the assembly line from China, you the customer are the QC department. If it fails you are likely screwed.
2. Accountability - Putting your name on something and selling it in the same country you are in forces you to be accountable. Buying straight from China as an end consumer leaves you no recourse for something going wrong. If it literally burns your house down because of a defect, you are S.O.L. You can't go after a Chinese company with any civil suit. They will not cover losses or be accountable in any way. There may not even be a warranty if they decide to change their name next week or ignore emails. I dont know how many battery company names i have seen come and go on Ebay. Has to be in the 100's.
3. Support - Simply being able to pick up the phone and call someone within your time zone and speaks your language is huge. Not to mention the Manuals and tech data that doesn't get lost in translation. Then you likely have parts support too without international shipping delays and its feasible to ship a unit back for warranty consideration.

American companies have to factor this into doing business and yes it raises the price, BUT Chinese companies also factor this in when they are lowering prices... think about it. If you could sell something with no risk, no insurance, no real obligation of warranty, sure the price will reflect that.

Ordering infrastructure type products on Amazon, Alibaba, or Temu where the potential for failure and the risk of damage to property is real, is just not a good idea.

 

[wpns]

Another 10% of the wholesale cost will disappear in the noise, and will be absorbed by all of the parties involved.

 

[BarracudaBob]

People will hesitate and screwenize their purchase just a little more.

The additional tariff proceeds will go into the Sovereign Wealth Fund (SWF)

"Thank you for your support"
- Bartles & Jaymes

 

[timselectric]

Nothing will change.
It will barely even be noticeable.

 

[Gcdan]

My biggest concern is how China treats the environment. Indeed they are doing better but still concerns me.

 

[Rednecktek]

Even with the added tariffs the Chinesium equipment will still be hands down a better value than the "Made in 'Murica" stuff. Just look at Midnight vs EG4. Even if you raised the source cost of the EG4 because it's made in Chyyyyyna it's still cheaper to get 3 EG4's than an equivalent Midnight or thereabouts.

Would I spend 20% more for local made stuff? Absolutely. Would I pay 200% or more for the same guts but it was assembled a few hours away? No way in hell. The value just isn't there.

Which is why I'll never own Victron gear, just not worth the 30%+ markup for the blue paint.

#SolarForThePoors!

 

[MattMan119]

I would tend to agree, if the quality continues to slip then everyone will continue to buy the best their money can buy. Now that said nothing would make me more happy then to spend a few extra $$ on real USA made products, and I think it would be a good idea to label the percentage of sourced parts of said USA made items.

But there is no doubt people will do what is best for them with little bending one way or another.

 

[wiseacre]

Not likely a price hike would curtail my addiction
and how likely would Victron be affected?

 

[45North]

In the short run, higher prices due to tariffs may have a chilling effect on consumer buying in general. Unfortunately this will affect staples like food and gasoline too with what is essentially an additional domestic tax to be paid by consumers, not the originating country.
In the longer term it remains to be seen whether the tariffs will encourage domestic production, how fast plants can be repatriated, and at what cost.
World supply chains will be in turmoil. "Business hates uncertainty".

 

[WorldwideDave]

Tariffs? Nah...no big deal.
I love things made in america, absolutely. I have pride in made in usa stuff.
That being said...
I'm not a pro-union / organized labor guy. You won't find me protesting in front of Ford/GM/Tesla to get them to stop building nearshore or overseas because it is taking away American jobs.
There are LOTS of jobs you can do in America. You may have done one thing for a long time like coal mining or been a factory worker, which is awesome! My grandpa worked at Ford. His last name? Ford. I have owned fords - old ones and new ones - but also owned Chevy, Toyota, and many other brands over my lifetime.
It is unfortunate that the worker pays the price when the boss decides to outsource labor abroad, but look...if it costs a company to pay you $300 a day, all in for your medical,vision, dental, and hourly/salary wage, but they can pay $300 per month for someone overseas to do your job, that's just business. It sucks for them overseas, it sucks for us here in USA.
Is it morally right or wrong? I don't know.
My parents both worked for unions.
When my mom got sick, union forced her into retirement early vs. fighting for her. She receives 1/3 what she would have in retirement, and that is paying its toll financially on our family now.
My dad retired with a pension.
Why do I mention all this? My parents - and many friends who work jobs with unions - get paid very little compared to private sector jobs. They trade that for some future security. But what they get paid in america even with a union blue collar job is more than they get paid in china.
They don't have a pension or retirement plan in china.
Me? I never joined a union. I've had to learn to live on less and save for my future manually vs. automatically with a union.
Will tariffs hurt the American consumer? Not on panels, raw cells and batteries. No way.
Look I cannot even buy a US made car that is any good for under 35,000. There are still other brands out there like Toyota that have high quality reliable cars at that price. And the korean brands and others are also competing.
Even with tariffs, we have it pretty darn good in USA. We get paid much higher than they do in Mexico or China.

 

[Brucey]

Not likely a price hike would curtail my addiction
and how likely would Victron be affected?

Victron is made in India for the most part so they wouldn't be affected by China tarrifs.

 

[robbob2112]

The most current reverse tariffs will involve India

 

[MattMan119]

Victron is made in India for the most part so they wouldn't be affected by China tarrifs.

Reciprocal taffies will certainly affect India … the china was only the first round, today was reciprocal .. anyone that charges us will have reciprocal calculation applied ..

 

[ricardocello]

The most current reverse tariffs will involve India

And my Victron Quattros say: "Made in India"

 

[Brucey]

I think that even with the new tarrifs, I'll still prefer Chinese solar equipment because it's higher quality and has the features I want.

America is so far behind in this industry that people are going to be willing to pay more for the superior product. And there's a good chance that the Chinese products will still be cheaper.

All of the "made in USA" solar products that have American flags all over their marketing and always seem to be "owned by veterans" are only assembled here. it's still a Chinese sourced product.

Usually the high price of American goods does not reflect quality. Its just good marketing. America does not manufacture these products.

A large factor is that America has not secured supply chains or processing capacity for the raw materials to make solar equipment. China currently processes 90% of the globes rare earth elements. They also have solid supply chains. America does not.

Eg4 is proposing to create products here in America, but where are the raw materials and components sourced from? If they can extract resources, process them, manufacture the board components and assemble here in America, that would be incredible!

But I'll believe it when I see it. If everyone is saying their product is "made in USA" and they are using fets and capacitors from China, that's just ridiculous. I won't call something made in America till it is sourced processed and 100% manufactured in America. Till then, it's made elsewhere.

And if something is manufactured here in America, I question how good it will be. Most of the assembled in America products have very low quality. I think people will end up just buying Chinese in the end unless something major changes.

As an owner of a Midnite Solar Rosie inverter and hawkes bay scc I have to disagree. These are made in Washington state. They are winding their own transformers. Stuffing circuit boards. Yes they have some parts from China but nothing like entire circuit boards that just need to be put in a metal box. I think the aluminum castings come from there, a few other components.

When I had a setup question I called Washington, a human answered the phone, I asked for Rosie's technical support and within 60 seconds I was talking to someone who had a Rosie in front of him as we worked through the issue. Problem resolved within 5 minutes (jumper setting).

How is it possible to have such service? Because 1) the hardware is fundamentally sound and has been beta tested for years prior to actual release, and 2) their business model doesn't rely on moving a massive amount of boxes with not a care of what's inside. Their engineers have decades of experience designing off grid inverters that simply must work, weeks of rma down time are simply unacceptable.

They make spds there as well. Their China manufactured aio is a new addition, they also had a smaller import aio before, but fundamentally its an American company at heart.

MidNite Solar Inc. - How Lightning Works

MidNite Solar is the industry leader and manufacture of quality Renewable Energy System electrical components and E-Panels.

www.midnitesolar.com

 

[robbob2112]

There is no telling where things will lead... clearly he is listening to economists like the ones Reagan did... no matter what prices will go up and up... and they are trying to raise the debt ceiling so they can give another tax break to the corporations.... rising tides floats all boats... except it didn't in the 80s and doesn't now..

 

[Brucey]

Fundamentally it was a conscious decision to say yes, I'll pay $2800 for a Rosie and $1100 for a hawkes bay 90a. Because I'm confident I can pass it on to my son in 20 years. Sure I could have gone with a China 5 year design for half the price and replace it four times in that period. And have nothing to pass on. What value is that, when you think about it?

 

[robby]

But I'll believe it when I see it. If everyone is saying their product is "made in USA" and they are using fets and capacitors from China, that's just ridiculous. I won't call something made in America till it is sourced processed and 100% manufactured in America. Till then, it's made elsewhere.

By those standards it would have been hard to find a made in USA Product even in the 1980s.
The Best Capacitors have always been coming out of Japan and Taiwan. FETS are made by everyone and no one really cares where it's made, only the company that makes it matters. Kind of like saying you want Gas for your car but only if comes from a Well in Texas versus saying I only want Chevron gas to go in my car.
Resistors get even worst, the differences in quality of regular resistors don't get that much attention.