EG4 3kW won't charge with a generator

[guyroch]

Have you tried charging with the inverter in the OFF position? This would more closely simulate the "chargeverter"

Good one, I did, still won't charge

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Grasping at straws... Is your generator completely level? My predator wasn't stable unless it was perfectly level.

 

[Mithril]

I have 2 Champion Gennies....
The Big 7200/9000W Construction genny works with my system because I tweaked the Charger to handle the dirty power by allowing it to take from 57-63 Hz and to tolerate 118-122 voltage float. NOTE that I use a Samlex EVO which allows for that and can limitedly compensate for it. I must also point out that being a Mod-Sine (all construction genny's are) the dirty power does have a knock on effect with the passthrough as it passes the sine wave as well. The end result is LED Clocks (microwave, coffee maker etc) lose time when under 60Hz and gain time when above 60Hz, which also affects computer & other electronics. The Smaller Generator is a 4650W Inverter Generator that outputs a clean 60Hz Pure Sine that only floats between 119-121V depending on load. Digital clocks etc keep proper time and everything runs better.

Do note the sound your fridge & other "motored" devices when running with a Mod-Sine Construction Genny compared to an Inverter Genny that is Pure Sine & clean... The fridge motor etc will be quieter & actually will run cooler. The simplest test for that, is a 120V house fan, run that on a construction genny and you'll hear the motor growl a bit while it will not do so on Pure sine Inverter Genny.

BTW: MANY people can verify that their clocks lose or gain time when using gennies but most often they are unable to tell you why because they simply don't know. Old-timers like me who've been at this a fair while see these things as pretty obvious after many hours of troubleshooting & reaseach + experience.

A non inverter generator generally IS pure sine wave, it's just not stable (frequency wise, unless you are talking the bigger units) and can't really compensate for all the harmonic distortion of all of the crappy non PF 1.0 devices in your home, including inductive motors, AC-DC power supplies, and so on. The "pure" in pure sine wave isn't about quality (as attested by how many bad pure sinewave inverters exist), it's to differentiate inverters that simulate the sinewave very roughly, from ones that simulate it more finely (as they ALL simulate it, by nature. If you didn't mind like 10% efficiency you could create a VERY pure sinewave output using a Class AB amplifier)

"Modified sinewave" (or mod-sine as you shortened it) is a term for inverters that are not sidewave but 1+ squarewaves that approximate a sinewave (sometimes with passive componants to try to shape the output). An inverter without a generator can't be modified sinewave, and I don't know who would go to the expense of an inverter generator that wasn't pure sinewave these days.
I've toured a datacenter with biiiig Diesel generators, each one enough to power multiple homes. No inverters, just 3 phase electric generation a large bit of rotating mass for stability and more sophisticated engine control. I've heard of people adding more flywheel mass to smaller home and portable generators with a centrifugal clutch (so it's not harder to start it) to get more stable output; but it feels like by the time you get the parts and put in the time just get a better generator.

 

[Mithril]

Too bad that this keeps coming up over and over and over on MPP Solar, Growatt and EG4 units.

To reliably charge with these AiO, an inverter generator that puts out very clean power is required. Signature Solar recommends this, and they have gone so far as to introduce the "Chargeverter" to enable separate charging from a generator.

Decrease utility charging to 10A. If it doesn't charge, your generator produces power that's too dirty. If it does, increase utility charging until it doesn't. Then fall back to the last setting that it did. That's all you get.

From the sounds of it, even a bunch of inverter generators cause problems.

 

[Mithril]

Throwing this into the conversation... would a power conditioner like this Tripp-Lite work?

https://www.amazon.ca/Tripp-LC1800-Conditioner-Outlet-6-Feet/dp/B0000514G8

At 290 bucks, I'd personally rather spend 400 on a charge-verter, or less on a smaller dedicated charger.

 

[Grimmster]

Sadly there is also a GOTCHA on the cheaper Inverter/Charger or AIO Combo's. The cheaper models often do not output a consistent 60Hz or 50Hz (pending on model) and very often will output at 49 or 59hz and in cases like 120V may only output 119V. While this is not significant enough to be a problem, over time things will "slip" accordingly like wall powered clock time.

I assume you mean the really cheap junk. I've never seem frequency as a complaint for units like EG4 and Growatt.

 

[Mithril]

I assume you mean the really cheap junk. I've never seem frequency as a complaint for units like EG4 and Growatt.

I actually have issues with my EG4 3000 and my Rackmount UPS sometimes not viewing the inverter output as clean enough.

 

[Rednecktek]

I actually have issues with my EG4 3000 and my Rackmount UPS sometimes not viewing the inverter output as clean enough.

I've seen that with the cheaper APC units. Got a TrippLite in there and my alarms shut up.

 

[Mithril]

I've seen that with the cheaper APC units. Got a TrippLite in there and my alarms shut up.

I wouldn't call this a cheaper unit, it's a 2U rackmount with an external battery plug. Maybe I should connect to the nic and see if the web management has any tweaks

 

[KonaColin]

Looking at buying the EG4 6500 unit and was hoping to use one of 4 of our generators as an a/c input to charge system batteries when needed.

Should I anticipate difficulty?

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

The inverter manual will help determine the level of "difficulty"; whatever they specify is what you have to work with.

I'd guess that your choice of (1 of your 4) generators still puts out either:
- too much THD for the inverter you have (you can look this up for your gen model)
- varies a bit too much for hz/voltage (sometimes adjustable at gen, depending on model and available tech notes)

If the desired inverter (and it's manual) states a range of what kind of power it will eat, not much you can do about it, except give it power in that way. Anything else, and you might have a "void the warranty" scenario. If it doesn't state the range, you can only test it ... the vendor may or may not have tested all possible combinations (and probably didn't).

My magnum ms4024pae eats any kind of gen power, and from my westinghouse wgen9500df the THD is around 20% (voltage was tweaked for it a bit, when I first got it in, but THD remains about the same, due to stator/rotor design for that model). Most newer (LF/HF?) inverters aren't designed to eat any kind of gen power, so a design restriction is in place ... if you buy such an inverter, you are stuck with that requirement. I don't fully understand why these AiO inverters can't eat any kind of power, whereas most Tier-1 (LF) inverters can, as the documentation/research isn't easily found yet.

Technically, you could fix it by sticking a high-end power conditioner ($1000+) in between the existing gens and the inverter, or a chargeverter ($400, if you are 48v and such). But at solution price levels, and with conversion losses, might as well buy an inverter-gen (or a chargeverter if it fits the solution).

To differentiate between surges and THD as potential problems elsewhere, you should care more about surge protection than THD protection: surges are proven electronics killers, THD is still nebulous, although it makes for great marketing material wrt generators. The former you can actually do something about in your house wiring (relatively inexpensive consumer SPD's exist); the latter you cannot (there are no easy consumer THD protection devices).

Hope this helps ...

 

[dcg9381]

Looking at buying the EG4 6500 unit and was hoping to use one of 4 of our generators as an a/c input to charge system batteries when needed.

Should I anticipate difficulty?

I would until tested otherwise. I'm with others in thinking that if one of your 4 was an inverter generator, it might be stable enough.
I have not tried to run our system off generator power.
The "chargeverter" is the answer, assuming you're willing to live with the current bug where it will initially overload on start up if you don't have a generator of at least 10KW+.. Apparently successive attempts will make it work.

 

[guyroch]

Sharing a reply I got from EG4 just now when I asked them.

 

[eleceng1979]

The prime mover (engine) is responsible for frequency, adjust the governor down to 60.0-60.2Hz no load. It is probably high. I can promise you that these inverters are not doing THD analysis on your incoming power to qualify it. They care about Hz and volts in that order, Hz is tight, volts not so much. The The irony of using an inverter generator to charge an inverter is amusing. Outback, Schneider, etc. don't require inverter gens, just saying...

Did you make sure the generator neutral bonding was removed if connecting to a bonded panel/inverter? double bonds = double trouble...

 

[guyroch]

The prime mover (engine) is responsible for frequency, adjust the governor down to 60.0-60.2Hz no load. It is probably high.

Interesting, and not sure how I would do that.... google here I come.

 

[eleceng1979]

It is typically a screw adjustment on the carb, usually secured with a nut. The service/user manual should show it. Usually it is adjustable with removing any covers. You need a multimeter capable of reading hz. Cheap ones usually don’t.

Adjust, wait, measure, repeat. You don’t want to be over 60.2-60.5. In a perfect world you should not be over 60.0, but you are playing the range. By adjusting a little above, you get more kw out prior to hitting the low cutoff. Due to no published data from inverter about what is acceptable, you might have to play with no load Hz to see where it connects and disconnects on the low end. Higher than 60 is far worse than lower than 60.

 

[eleceng1979]

it will need adjusted as the genny ages. Per most manuals, I believe it is annual/or 50 hours. As piston(s) wear, worn carbs happen, it changes. There are multiple classes of prime movers. Everything not at a hospital or a large frame are NOT designed for permanent duty and have a 100-200 hour runtime lifespan. This includes portable, pad mount whole home, etc…. Google generator prime mover classification

 

[Markus_EG4]

Hi,

I have the EG4 3kW inverter (3000EHV-48). It charges over 120v AC 'house' power, but not 120v AC power from a generator? Generator is a 3000w Champion, and I have the AC max charge set to 18amp on the inverter, so plenty of 'generator' juice to charge, but it refused to charge.

When I plug the inverter into 'house' AC it charges without changing any settings on the inverter. What I'm I missing?

This setup does not have solar panels connected to it, I mainly use it for a backup power during extended power outages.

Thank you.

The generator function was removed after R&D but the manual still showed this setting. All new manuals do not show the gen setting because the inverter will not accept the generator power if it’s to dirty or if the frequency is off by 1.2 hertz.

I’m sorry you are going through this. But I have seen success with generators that are 2x this size of the inverters. Not cheap harbor freight ones either

 

[eleceng1979]

So you sell an off grid inverter, with an ac input, removed the gen settings from the manual, but show a grid connection? For off grid? With no UL listing. And the target audience is whom?

 

[Markus_EG4]

So you sell an off grid inverter, with an ac input, removed the gen settings from the manual, but show a grid connection? For off grid? With no UL listing. And the target audience is whom?

The failure rate was to high with this function. If this setting was still there I’m sure we would be talking about the unit not working at all. But like I said before you can still use a generator but it needs to be twice the size of the inverter. We are not the only ones that say this. Just because this setting is gone doesn’t mean you can’t use a generator it just needs to be within spec.