EG4 6000XP instead of Victron? Thoughts Welcome.

[zanydroid]

If you cannot grid tie the 18Kpv is dumb. The 12000XP is basically the exact same, slightly different PV input config, only 2x26A MPPT instead of 2x15 and 1x25, both are 50A likely exactly the same inverter hardware, and the 12000XP is 1/2 the price.

The 12000XP is locked into off-grid without software config. Hybrids are more commonly (like, i suspect > 75% of this one) used for grid tie.

This is definitely the kind of thing that will trigger some lawyer action on the interconnect rules.

 

[ksmithaz1]

The 12000XP is locked into off-grid without software config. Hybrids are more commonly (like, i suspect > 75% of this one) used for grid tie.

This is definitely the kind of thing that will trigger some lawyer action on the interconnect rules.

Not sure where you are going here. 12KXP is an AIO with a built-in ATS. 18Kpv replaces the simple ATS with a backfeed service relay configuration. The former works identically to a generator with an ATS, the latter is capable of that, or can be used to push power to the grid.

In either case I would have a separate bypass relay, but it can simplify wiring if you just wire it all up thru the AIO.

 

[Will Prowse]

The 12000XP is locked into off-grid without software config. Hybrids are more commonly (like, i suspect > 75% of this one) used for grid tie.

This is definitely the kind of thing that will trigger some lawyer action on the interconnect rules.

The grid connection on off-grid inverters is a battery charger. It's the same as a phone charger, ebike charger or whatever else.

The 12000xp does not have the ability to backfeed. It's physically impossible. It's not designed to do that. You would not only need more software but also hardware, including CTs.

I think he should just run the whole thing off grid and forget the utility requirements. Don't use the grid. It's a pain.

 

[Will Prowse]

Not sure where you are going here. 12KXP is an AIO with a built-in ATS. 18Kpv replaces the simple ATS with a backfeed service relay configuration. The former works identically to a generator with an ATS, the latter is capable of that, or can be used to push power to the grid.

In either case I would have a separate bypass relay, but it can simplify wiring if you just wire it all up thru the AIO.

Yes exactly! well said

 

[JAS]

Where are you putting your inverter that the ambient air around it will be below freezing while operating? It is not designed to run outdoors in the first place. If you stuff it in a small outbuilding it would be really simple to warm it slightly, the unit itself would generate enough waste heat to probably keep it above 0C down into the -5C range. If you are running it inside it's moot.

It's in an un-insulated shed. That being said, even if I had it inside the cabin it would be below freezing when I start it up. (as I don't keep the cabin heated. It's "off-grid" ;-)

All I know is what the manual states and that EG4 recommended against this use case. Like I said, if it were a bit cheaper (and SS/CC didn't charge so much for shipping), I'd chance it.

 

[JAS]

No, you would go in the shed, turn on a small portable kerosene heater for 15 minutes or so, and then turn it on. Condensation is going to be a problem with any unit, all the specs are going to say Low-High "non-condensing". Your batteries are going to be the problem at 0F, not the inverter.

Well...

When I get there after dark, the first thing I want to do is turn the lights on. Not, wait for the temps to rise. (Shed is uninsulated. So if 0F, it will probably take quite a while to get up to reasonable temp. Plus, a kerosene/propane heater creates more moisture.

Regarding the batteries... I would either get the self-heating batteries or have 12v heating pads connected and inside an insulated box to keep them above freezing. Again, only a problem when charging, which I wouldn't be doing immediately upon arrival.

This concern with the 6000XP (and probably the 12000XP) has been brought up before in other discussions. I'm guessing the "open air" design vs the "sealed" design of the 12K/18K, that James mentioned previously, contributes to the spec'd ambient operating temperature...

 

[zanydroid]

Not sure where you are going here. 12KXP is an AIO with a built-in ATS. 18Kpv replaces the simple ATS with a backfeed service relay configuration. The former works identically to a generator with an ATS, the latter is capable of that, or can be used to push power to the grid.

In either case I would have a separate bypass relay, but it can simplify wiring if you just wire it all up thru the AIO.

We are on the same page technically.

But the interconnection rules on paper may say that the CAPABILITY to configure a hybrid in a on grid mode prohibits it from being used without an interconnection agreement.

That’s why I mentioned the locking letter from EG4 saying a specific KPV has been neutered. They already did that for export level, it makes them more sales in California and Florida. It’s in EG4’s interest to opportunity size whether other types of utility locking letters help them sell more.

Anyway it’s super clear to me , hopefully the discussion is in the future useful to someone with onerous problems , I’ll dip out now. To clarify further in my POCO the agreement to operate a kpv as a hybrid is only $150 and EG4 has already negotiated the specific locking letter I need with my POCO so I don’t personally have skin in the game for beyond that.

 

[solarenvy]

Well...

When I get there after dark, the first thing I want to do is turn the lights on. Not, wait for the temps to rise. (Shed is uninsulated. So if 0F, it will probably take quite a while to get up to reasonable temp. Plus, a kerosene/propane heater creates more moisture.

Regarding the batteries... I would either get the self-heating batteries or have 12v heating pads connected and inside an insulated box to keep them above freezing. Again, only a problem when charging, which I wouldn't be doing immediately upon arrival.

This concern with the 6000XP (and probably the 12000XP) has been brought up before in other discussions. I'm guessing the "open air" design vs the "sealed" design of the 12K/18K, that James mentioned previously, contributes to the spec'd ambient operating temperature...

My 12000XP is in a 4’x8’ marginally insulated shed with 2 x 280Ah wall mounts. Temp has hit single digits the last couple of nights. Shed inside temp is 54F.

I have a small space heater in the shed that is programmed to turn on if temp drops below 40F and off when it hits 60F. It might turn on for less than 10 mins every once in a while, but rarely.

I understand you shut everything down when you’re not at the cabin, but why does it matter when you’re on solar? I prefer to keep the cabin temp controlled when solar is doing its thing.

 

[Madcodger]

I think he should just run the whole thing off grid and forget the utility requirements. Don't use the grid. It's a pain.

Certainly the approach this happy fella took, in Maine. Electric lines run right past us, a stone's throw away, and we didn't connect. No outages, no brownouts, no negotiating or waiting for a grid tie / net metering agreement, and no hassles. If the days get grey for too long we can always fire up the generator to recharge, but we got our final panels up on Dec 22, it's now Jan 22, and we haven't had to fire up the generator at all. We recharge to 100% almost every day. Grid tie keeps you connected to a fragile, aging system that charges you for even the connection. Just say no, folks. Install a few more panels, and just say no!

 

[JAS]

I understand you shut everything down when you’re not at the cabin, but why does it matter when you’re on solar?

Mainly because I don't currently have enough battery or solar panels . I'm usually only there for 2-3 days at a time and often the battery that I have (yes, single 12v 300ah battery) is only left between 60-80 percent charged.

Plus, it's peace of mind that I don't have to worry/wonder if anything happened and the battery completely discharged...

 

[Brucey]

We are on the same page technically.

But the interconnection rules on paper may say that the CAPABILITY to configure a hybrid in a on grid mode prohibits it from being used without an interconnection agreement.

That’s why I mentioned the locking letter from EG4 saying a specific KPV has been neutered. They already did that for export level, it makes them more sales in California and Florida. It’s in EG4’s interest to opportunity size whether other types of utility locking letters help them sell more.

Anyway it’s super clear to me , hopefully the discussion is in the future useful to someone with onerous problems , I’ll dip out now. To clarify further in my POCO the agreement to operate a kpv as a hybrid is only $150 and EG4 has already negotiated the specific locking letter I need with my POCO so I don’t personally have skin in the game for beyond that.

I knew there was a way to have eg4 limit your output for whatever reason the poco wanted.

I didn't realize it could also limit charging from grid to battery to prevent time based peak/off peak arbitrage if that was a poco requirement

 

[agtcovert]

I'm amazed how cheap these devices have become in the last five years, especially considering cost of copper and overall inflation. By the time my inverters fail, I'll buy whatever new tech comes out. Imagine inverters in 15 years from now! I can't wait

I've been living breathing this stuff with joy for a bit over a year now. Just in the last 12 months the changes have been amazing. Can't wait to see where we go.

And to wit, it's an argument, if you like trying things, to spend a bit less on inverters as they change.

I just hope those of us who like DIY can continue doing so without manufacturers trying to lock things down. Pocos too.

 

[ksmithaz1]

It's in an un-insulated shed. That being said, even if I had it inside the cabin it would be below freezing when I start it up. (as I don't keep the cabin heated. It's "off-grid" ;-)

All I know is what the manual states and that EG4 recommended against this use case. Like I said, if it were a bit cheaper (and SS/CC didn't charge so much for shipping), I'd chance it.

Without spending a fortune.
Get a kerosene space heater and a modicum of insulation in the shed. Don't need much, 2" foam board or something easy. Create flaps for any roof/eave air venting.

Drive up to cabin, open shed, light heater on arrival.
Unload car, kick on cabin heat.
Go back out to the shed fire up inverter.

Your batteries are going to be the problem, not the inverter. Batteries do not like to be below freezing. Honestly you should probably improve the shed and run your power plant all the time with minimal function. Figure out a way to generally keep the room around 35F / 2C as a minimum to protect the batteries, at which point the inverter concerns are moot. There was another thread where a guy was doing something similar.

But if you really want to 'Cabin' it, skip the inverter, kill a bear, make some tallow from the fat, use oil lamps, chop wood, be at one with your environment. . . Just kidding, gotta have your starlink up!

 

[Hedges]

The xw+ was released back in 2014, xwpro in 2020. So that design is already running for 10 years.

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I'll just defer to James thoughts on design life median:
View attachment 271746

View attachment 271747

This concern with the 6000XP (and probably the 12000XP) has been brought up before in other discussions. I'm guessing the "open air" design vs the "sealed" design of the 12K/18K, that James mentioned previously, contributes to the spec'd ambient operating temperature...

Open air is likely to remain cooler, vs. sealed volume and heat escaping only through metal case and heatsinks.
SMA designs are sealed. They had fans over the exposed heatsinks, and some fans inside the sealed volume. Newer models no fan, just convection.

I thought James might be referring to the issue of dust getting inside and bridging between contacts on PCB. Add bit of moisture and you've got shorts.

A design I did had about 140VDC on some terminals, also higher voltage AC. Fan cooled, no filters to allow more airflow. After a relatively short time operating in office environment dust was built up on some nodes. Acting like an electrostatic air filter?

Conformally coated boards would be better protected. Are the EG4?

https://www.edn.com/design-for-dust/

"Table 1. Pollution degrees and their descriptions

[TR]
[td]Pollution degree level[/td][td]Description[/td]
[/TR]
[TR]
[td]1[/td][td]No pollution or only dry, nonconductive pollution, which has no influence on safety. You can achieve pollution degree 1 through encapsulation or the use of hermetically sealed components or through conformal coating of PCBs.[/td]
[/TR]
[TR]
[td]2[/td][td]Nonconductive pollution where occasional temporary condensation can occur. This is the most common environment and generally is required for products used in homes, offices, and laboratories.[/td]
[/TR]
[TR]
[td]3[/td][td]Conductive pollution or dry nonconductive pollution, which could become conductive due to expected condensation. This generally applies to industrial environments. You can use ingress protection (IP) enclosures to achieve pollution degree 3.[/td]
[/TR]
[TR]
[td]4[/td][td]Pollution that generates persistent conductivity, such as by rain, snow, or conductive dust. This category applies to outdoor environments and is not applicable when the product standard specifies indoor use.[/td]
[/TR]

Table 2. Double or reinforced insulation for a 300-V product

[TR]
[td]Pollution degree[/td]
[/TR]
[TR]
[td]Spacing type[/td][td]2 (typical products)[/td][td]3 (industrial areas)[/td]
[/TR]
[TR]
[td]Clearance[/td][td]3.0 mm[/td][td]3.0 mm[/td]
[/TR]
[TR]
[td]Creepage on PCBs[/td][td]3.0 mm[/td][td]10.0 mm[/td]
[/TR]

[TR]
[td]References[/td]
[/TR]

"