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EG4 6000XP Neutral-Ground Bonding

Note that the above issue is very similar to the issues around the requirement of gronding electrodes at seperate buildings:

1711931264350.png
 
Zwy said:
What did you find?


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And where does it say in there not to use a common busbar of the AC grounded system? And yes, I also went to 690.41(A)(5).
Click to expand...
So, we had seen some issues with flickering lights when tying DC grounds onto the PE Bus of the XP.

I will have to look further into this to see why that is, as I don't have conclusive reasoning for it at this time.
 
HighCountry said:
Thoughts on this configuration...

View attachment 206440
Click to expand...
Completely off-grid? Yes, this is totally viable and looks good to me.
ChrisG said:
Assume you need to add an EGC from batteries to the main panel ground bar. Still think it’s odd you can’t land the PV ground in the inverter. Just not making sense to me.
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I understand where you are coming from because it doesn't make sense to me either. I won't claim to know how every circuit on the inverter is drawn out, and why certain things work the way they do, but I know through hours of troubleshooting and consulting with the R&D team, that moving it has resolved that flicker issue for a lot of customers.
 
FilterGuy said:
I do not have experience with the tesla charger but I do know it has circuitry the checks for the NG bond. As far as I know it should work with your set up.
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I have a 6000xp setup with 2 eg4 batteries to go off grid charging the Tesla. It work great for 2 weeks but when I updated the 6000xp it gave me the 2 red flashing light in the Tesla charger which I think indicate no NG bond but I did have the settings 26 which NG bond enable. Still try to get it figure out what’s going on. anybody have this problem?
 
Benchen123 said:
what about on-grid?
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For on-grid, the NG bond should be in the Main Breaker Panel and the relay in the inverter should be disabled (Never create a bond).

Frankly, I don't understand why the 6000XP has a bonding relay. I would not use it in either an on-grid or off-grid mode. I would always do the bond outside of the inverter. (A bonding jumper is way more reliable than a relay)
 
FilterGuy said:
The reality is, even systems that do dynamic bonding well has to make assumptions about whether there is a bond on the AC in. I do not know of anything on the market that can handle AC-in without bonding sometimes and AC-in with bonding other times. It could be done with modern electronics that detect if a bond exists or not, but I am not aware of any current inverter product with that capability.

So true!!! The 6000XP has a design center of stationary installs. Trying to apply it to mobile is a little bit of a square peg and round hole situation.
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I have grid power backed by an unbonded gas generator through a 4 wire cord and plug to the main panel using a manual generator interlock kit. I want to replace it with a portable inverter. I bought a TP6048 that bonds the output when input ac is off. I think my choices are: 1. go inside the TP6048 and find a way to disconnect the bonding relay (and the warranty), 2. substitute a 6000xp set to no-bond, 3. move my priority circuits out to a new unbonded panel connected through a three conductor transfer switch and bond at the inverter (either one). Am I missing something.
 
Markus_EG4 said:
This is a really good explanation. Very detailed.

The only thing I would add is Grounding in general. No matter what scenario you are in Off Grid or Grid tied you always need a ground. I know being Grid tied you will have one usually but Off Grid we see so. many ungrounded systems and that is so scary because you can or will become the ground at one point.

So please always have a actual Ground no matter what.
Click to expand...
I know this is an old thread but have a question:

@Markus_EG4 or anyone else who really understands this stuff:
How do you recommend grounding in a grid-tied scenario?

@timselectric who is the grounding guru on this forum told me
"You can add a ground rod if you are never going to connect to grid. If you are [grid-tied] I would not recommend it."
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/d...ror-f08-gfdi-_relay_failure.74146/post-939258
 
Benchen123 said:
I have a 6000xp setup with 2 eg4 batteries to go off grid charging the Tesla. It work great for 2 weeks but when I updated the 6000xp it gave me the 2 red flashing light in the Tesla charger which I think indicate no NG bond but I did have the settings 26 which NG bond enable. Still try to get it figure out what’s going on. anybody have this problem?
Click to expand...
Were you able to figure this out? I’m having the exact same issue.

Enabled setting 26 but the EVSE shows ground fault. Testing the continuity between the N and G on the 6000XP makes the tester chirp once and then nothing. This is without load. Seems like something is not enabling the bond.
 
norcom said:
Were you able to figure this out? I’m having the exact same issue.

Enabled setting 26 but the EVSE shows ground fault. Testing the continuity between the N and G on the 6000XP makes the tester chirp once and then nothing. This is without load. Seems like something is not enabling the bond.
Click to expand...

Is setting 26 enabled while in standby, with the EPS switch set to the "Off" position on the left side of the inverter?
 
EG4TechSolutionsTeam said:
Is setting 26 enabled while in standby, with the EPS switch set to the "Off" position on the left side of the inverter?
Click to expand...
Yes. Just tested it again. The EPS was off. Enabled setting 26. Turned EPS On and the continuity between N and PE is there for the first time I touch the contacts, the meter chirps but instantly stops. When I test continuity when the unit is plugged into the grid, it works as it should because the upstream panel is bonded.

I’m testing the unit when it’s completely off grid.
 
HighTechLab said:
Let's start with a snip from the EG4 6000XP manual.


What I'm getting at here, is a lot of people, including @Will Prowse in his latest video (8:03) are mistaken on how the 6000XP handles neutral and ground bonds. The inverter does NOT dynamically bond. This means that if you plan to put an cord and plug on the AC-input, then you will have problems (for example, if you plan to use this inverter in an RV). In my opinion, it's really only intended for hardwired applications, similar to the big-brother, the 18k-PV.

Neutral-ground bonds are critical in all modes of operation because it creates a fault current path so that you actually trip a breaker in the event of a ground fault. Without a neutral-ground bond, then all that happens during a ground fault is the cases of everything become live in relation to neutral and the fault is not cleared.

Double bonds are not acceptable by code or safe because it creates a parallel path for neutral currents. The current carried on the grounding conductor is know as objectionable current. NEC specifically addresses objectionable current.

The two options for successful and safe implementation are:
  • Bond is either created upstream of the inverter, (in the main panel). Neutral and ground connections remain separate to the inverter (and any parallel connected inverters) and the relay in the inverter is left disabled). No cord-and-plug can be used between the main panel and the inverter. A hardwire connection is required so that the neutral and ground bond is maintained at all times, not just while plugged in.
  • Bond is created in only one of the inverters, but there cannot be bonds upstream or downstream. This means if you decide to put a cord-and-plug, for example, an NEMA 14-50P (for an RV) or a 6-30P (for a generator), then you cannot plug the cord into a bonded system (for example, an RV park or generator with a bond). This would create a double-bond which is not permitted by code and cause objectionable current.
I would recommend if you plan to use these inverters in a mobile application, then you enable the bonding relay within the inverter and skip using the built-in charger/transfer switch function. When it comes time to recharge your batteries, just pick up one of the EG4 chargeverters (or 12) and use that as your input power source. Since the chargeverter is completely isolated from the inverter, the chargeverter prevents any chance of double-bonding.

@Markus_EG4 Let me know if I've missed anything here.
Click to expand...
What if the inverter is hardwired from the auto transfer switch on the RV. When plugged into shore power it's bonded, when using generator it's bonded. So there is no need to have the inverter do any bonding, correct? The old school inverters/chargers like Freedom, Heart, Magnum etc didn't do any bonding. Why would this be different? I'm confused.
 
pastorjared said:
What if the inverter is hardwired from the auto transfer switch on the RV. When plugged into shore power it's bonded, when using generator it's bonded. So there is no need to have the inverter do any bonding, correct? The old school inverters/chargers like Freedom, Heart, Magnum etc didn't do any bonding. Why would this be different? I'm confused.
Click to expand...
What you describe will work. Either the shore is connected (and has the bond) or the Generator is connected (and has the bond). However, the transfer switch must switch the hots AND the neutral (For 240V it would be a 3-pole switch). Otherwise, there will be two bonds when shore power is plugged in.
 
But you can’t use the generators bond when inverting without generator power r shore power - they are all three separately derived systems and need their own bonds.

When the inverter is connected to shore power, it is no longer a separately derived system, hence the need for dynamic control of the bond.
 
HighTechLab said:
But you can’t use the generators bond when inverting without generator power r shore power - they are all three separately derived systems and need their own bonds.
Click to expand...
Not quite true.

The 6000XP inverter is a common neutral architecture. It is not a separately derived source. When the 6000XP is tied to the generator through a 3 pole transfer switch, the generator bond is active for both the generator and the inverter. When the 6000XP is tied to shore power through a 3 pole transfer switch, the shore power bond is active for both the shore power and the inverter.

What would not be proper is a 3 pole transfer switch with an off position. In the off position, neither the shore power nor the generator bond is in the circuit.
 
FilterGuy said:
Not quite true.

The 6000XP inverter is a common neutral architecture. It is not a separately derived source. When the 6000XP is tied to the generator through a 3 pole transfer switch, the generator bond is active for both the generator and the inverter. When the 6000XP is tied to shore power through a 3 pole transfer switch, the shore power bond is active for both the shore power and the inverter.

What would not be proper is a 3 pole transfer switch with an off position. In the off position, neither the shore power nor the generator bond is in the circuit.
Click to expand...
Thinking on this overnight, yes this would be fine, I guess the only caveat is you would have to make sure you never plug your shore cord into an unbounded supply, I think some portable generators aren’t internally bonded from the factory.
 
HighTechLab said:
I guess the only caveat is you would have to make sure you never plug your shore cord into an unbounded supply, I think some portable generators aren’t internally bonded from the factory.
Click to expand...
Yup. Some generators are bonded some arn't. This makes it nearly impossible to set up a system that works properly no matter what you plug it into.

I have wondered if it would be possible to electronically detect the presence or lack of a bond and create one if needed. Detecting the lack of a bond is easy. However, if you then create a bond, how do you detect if a second bond is later added so you can remove the one you created?
(There should only be one bond)
 
FilterGuy said:
What you describe will work. Either the shore is connected (and has the bond) or the Generator is connected (and has the bond). However, the transfer switch must switch the hots AND the neutral (For 240V it would be a 3-pole switch). Otherwise, there will be two bonds when shore power is plugged in.
Click to expand...
My RV transfer switch is a ES50M-65N. According to the specs this should work. The generator always takes precedence if running. If my Eg4 6000xp is hard wired into this switch at all times then the ground neutral bond will be maintained at all times. Is this correct? So there would be no need to enable the inverters bond through it's programing. Correct? Thank you for your help on this topic. I appreciate it.

ES50M-65N Automatic Transfer Switch
ES50M-65N Automatic Transfer Switch Features

  • Automatically switches from power cord to generator
  • Heavy duty contactor assembly specifically designed for rigorous use, will handle 50 amp power cord and up to 12kw generator
  • Transfers both hot and neutral legs simultaneously
  • Economical and reliable time delay switches automatically from shoreline to generator power
  • Capable of monitoring for low generator voltage
  • Built-in time delay allows generator to get up to speed
  • Quick and easy installation
  • Designed for OEM and aftermarket applications


The ES50M-65N is intended for use as an electrical transfer switch to automatically switch multiple sources (from one to another), i.e. switching from shoreline to generator power. It is primarily designed for installation in conjunction with a generator having a rated output no larger than 12KW and an external power cord having a rated output no larger than 2 pole, 240VAC, 50A, 1PH, 60HZ.



CONTACTORS: 3 Pole N.O. 240 VAC 50Amps/Pole
 
pastorjared said:
My RV transfer switch is a ES50M-65N. According to the specs this should work. The generator always takes precedence if running. If my Eg4 6000xp is hard wired into this switch at all times then the ground neutral bond will be maintained at all times. Is this correct? So there would be no need to enable the inverters bond through it's programing. Correct? Thank you for your help on this topic. I appreciate it.

ES50M-65N Automatic Transfer Switch
ES50M-65N Automatic Transfer Switch Features

  • Automatically switches from power cord to generator
  • Heavy duty contactor assembly specifically designed for rigorous use, will handle 50 amp power cord and up to 12kw generator
  • Transfers both hot and neutral legs simultaneously
  • Economical and reliable time delay switches automatically from shoreline to generator power
  • Capable of monitoring for low generator voltage
  • Built-in time delay allows generator to get up to speed
  • Quick and easy installation
  • Designed for OEM and aftermarket applications


The ES50M-65N is intended for use as an electrical transfer switch to automatically switch multiple sources (from one to another), i.e. switching from shoreline to generator power. It is primarily designed for installation in conjunction with a generator having a rated output no larger than 12KW and an external power cord having a rated output no larger than 2 pole, 240VAC, 50A, 1PH, 60HZ.



CONTACTORS: 3 Pole N.O. 240 VAC 50Amps/Pole
Click to expand...
If that is the ESCO ES50M-65N, then yes, it should work fine as long as the generator is bonded. (You should not enable the static bonding relay)
 
Wouldn't you want the priority to be to the grid, this way only the presence of grid (and a bond on grid) breaks the connection to the generator's bond, this way if there is not power from either source the transfer switch is connected to the generator?
 
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