EG4 600EX-48HV Inverter impact on Power-Line Communications (PLC)

[SunFarmer]

Hello Forum,

I’ve encountered a challenge as a result of building my new off-grid solar electric system. The EG4 6000EX-48HV inverter has some unexpected effect on Power-Line Communications (PLC).

First some background: I’ve been dabbling with home automation since the 1980’s. Initially I build a network using controllers and switches that communicate via the X10 PLC protocol. Power-Line Communications or PLC for short, is a technology where communication signals are super-imposed onto 60Hz AC power lines. This is useful for home automation where remote-controlled switches and outlets can be deployed without the need for additional control wiring.

The X10 protocol became obsolete and replaced by the much-improved Insteon PLC protocol. As my X10 devices aged-out, I replaced them with Insteon devices. Eventually my home automation network consisted of an ISY-994i controller and a bunch of Insteon switches, outlets and smart lightbulbs. It all worked pretty well. The ISY-994i controller would send ON/OFF commands out on the power lines, and the remote Insteon switches and outlets, if they were in a good mood, and there were no sunspots, would turn on or off as commanded. However, sometimes, for unknow reasons, the Insteon switches and outlets just would refuse to cooperate, wouldn’t turn on/off or provide status. When this happens, I make them take a time-out until whatever was interfering passes and things get back to normal.

Recently. the primary Insteon supplier has gone out of business. So now as my Insteon devices reach end-of-life I’ve been replacing them with new equipment that used the Zigbee automation control protocol. Zigbee is a wireless system which work very well, but unfortunately is limited to a couple hundred feet distance at best from the hub to the devices. Also, my ISY-994i controller has better scheduling option over the hub I’m using for Zigbee. Consequently, I now have a hybrid home automation network of Zigbee devices in the house and Insteon devices for longer distances outdoors.

But I digress… Here’s my current challenge. Right after putting my EG4 600EX-48HV inverter online, I noticed that my Insteon PLC switches and outlets were not working. During troubleshooting, I turned off the breaker in the main panel which supplies power to the AC input on the inverter. Please refer to diagram. With the breaker off, my Insteon PLC switches and outlets operated as normal, with the breaker on, the Insteon device do not work. Clearly, the EG4 600EX-48HV inverter is absorbing, squelching, or somehow attenuating the PLC signals. Right now, I have the breaker turned off on the inverter input while I sort this out. My Zigbee network is unaffected.

Now a twist, I can’t explain… I have an Insteon PLC switch which controls a heat recovery ventilator. I just moved this circuit to the off-grid side of the inverter and expected this Insteon switch to no longer work. But it still does. I don’t know why. Somehow, the PLC communication signals are getting through the invertor, even with the AC input breaker turned off!

I will eventually come up with a solution, but in the meantime, I want to share this experience with the forum.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Setting 9?

 

[BentleyJ]

I also have an Insteon System and an ISY994i and believe me when I say: "I feel your pain". The short version is: In addition to the Insteon PLC, I also had a TED5000 (now dead and gone) energy monitoring system that also used PLC and just to make it really exciting when I add the second solar array with Enphase microinverters, they also use PLC to communicate with the Envoy. Talk about a mess, nothing worked at all. The solution was TDK line filters to isolate each system behind a high frequency barrier.

Back to the inverter problem which I believe ties in with several recent posts describing flickering lights especially with HF inverters. While the primary output of an inverter is 50 or 60Hz there is most certainly some level of background electrical noise at the switching frequency (in the KHz range) of the inverter electronics used to create the sine wave. I've had individual LED lights produce so much electrical line pollution it completely blocked all Insteon communications. Likewise, some of our other LED lights flicker, quite intensely, when the Insteon system is sending. Its all about the switching power supplies interacting with each other.

I was able to use relatively inexpensive 20A TDK line filters on 2 individual, 2 pole circuits. If you wanted to insert a line filter on the input side of the inverter that's going to be a bigger, more expensive proposition. Here is a link to a 50A product. Its over $200 but actually is less than I would have guessed.

https://product.tdk.com/en/search/emc/emc/power-line/info?part_no=RSHN-2050

As far as the heat recovery ventilator, Insteon devices were advertised as dual band, PLC and wireless, I believe? But I never had any luck with them working any other way but via a good PLC signal. Maybe you just got lucky with that one particular device. Hard to say, as you pointed out they seem to have a mind of their own. Randomly not working or communicating then magically they are back to normal after some time passes or after cycling the circuit breaker.
Overall, I like the system and have integrated landscape lighting, sprinkler valves and a backyard waterfall pump using the Smartenit multiport IO module. Funny thing is the module actually is much more reliable than the other individual items.

Apparently after Insteon went bankrupt some of the original engineers have purchased the company and are operating in the same Irvine, CA location. The website is up and they do have some of the products available for purchase but selection is limited.

 

[SunFarmer]

Setting 9?

sunshine_eggo – Setting #9, grid-tie disabled, I just double checked it. Thanks

 

[SunFarmer]

BentleyJ – Thank you for the great insight. If I may paraphrase, you suspect that the inverter is generating electrical noise that is drowning out the PLC signals.

Putting a TDK line filter on the input side of the inverter could do the trick. Please see amended diagram.

You reminded me that I have some smaller EMI filters scavenged from various electronics. These are in the range of .5amp to 6amp, see picture. I’m going to try experimenting with the 6A filter on a single circuit. If it works, I’ll invest $220 for a 50A filter. Thanks again for your sage advice.

 

[BentleyJ]

I’m going to try experimenting with the 6A filter on a single circuit.

Sounds like a plan. Let me know how it turns out.

 

[629658]

Hello Forum,

I’ve encountered a challenge as a result of building my new off-grid solar electric system. The EG4 6000EX-48HV inverter has some unexpected effect on Power-Line Communications (PLC).

First some background: I’ve been dabbling with home automation since the 1980’s. Initially I build a network using controllers and switches that communicate via the X10 PLC protocol. Power-Line Communications or PLC for short, is a technology where communication signals are super-imposed onto 60Hz AC power lines. This is useful for home automation where remote-controlled switches and outlets can be deployed without the need for additional control wiring.

The X10 protocol became obsolete and replaced by the much-improved Insteon PLC protocol. As my X10 devices aged-out, I replaced them with Insteon devices. Eventually my home automation network consisted of an ISY-994i controller and a bunch of Insteon switches, outlets and smart lightbulbs. It all worked pretty well. The ISY-994i controller would send ON/OFF commands out on the power lines, and the remote Insteon switches and outlets, if they were in a good mood, and there were no sunspots, would turn on or off as commanded. However, sometimes, for unknow reasons, the Insteon switches and outlets just would refuse to cooperate, wouldn’t turn on/off or provide status. When this happens, I make them take a time-out until whatever was interfering passes and things get back to normal.

Recently. the primary Insteon supplier has gone out of business. So now as my Insteon devices reach end-of-life I’ve been replacing them with new equipment that used the Zigbee automation control protocol. Zigbee is a wireless system which work very well, but unfortunately is limited to a couple hundred feet distance at best from the hub to the devices. Also, my ISY-994i controller has better scheduling option over the hub I’m using for Zigbee. Consequently, I now have a hybrid home automation network of Zigbee devices in the house and Insteon devices for longer distances outdoors.

But I digress… Here’s my current challenge. Right after putting my EG4 600EX-48HV inverter online, I noticed that my Insteon PLC switches and outlets were not working. During troubleshooting, I turned off the breaker in the main panel which supplies power to the AC input on the inverter. Please refer to diagram. With the breaker off, my Insteon PLC switches and outlets operated as normal, with the breaker on, the Insteon device do not work. Clearly, the EG4 600EX-48HV inverter is absorbing, squelching, or somehow attenuating the PLC signals. Right now, I have the breaker turned off on the inverter input while I sort this out. My Zigbee network is unaffected.

Now a twist, I can’t explain… I have an Insteon PLC switch which controls a heat recovery ventilator. I just moved this circuit to the off-grid side of the inverter and expected this Insteon switch to no longer work. But it still does. I don’t know why. Somehow, the PLC communication signals are getting through the invertor, even with the AC input breaker turned off!

I will eventually come up with a solution, but in the meantime, I want to share this experience with the forum.

I was a big Insteon user but I have been phasing them our. I have been changing to Yolink brand devices. The work over rf and they have amazing range. They offer much more varied devices and sensors. Reasonably priced too. Much more reliable than Insteon. Their switches link together like the Insteon and they have vibration sensors I use to activate different devices and alert us to when our generator is running. Temp sensors, leak detection, garage door operators etc. They are on Amazon

 

[BentleyJ]

I was a big Insteon user but I have been phasing them our. I have been changing to Yolink brand devices.

Honestly, have not done much research into suitable Insteon replacements, didn't need to as the system has been stable so far. Will check out that brand since the future of Insteon is uncertain. Thanks

 

[629658]

I had probably 30 Insteon devices. Now down to 10 or less. When they went belly up and left us high and dry I knew it was time to transition. I have a couple of out buildings that Insteon was always flaky at best. Yolink has worked 100% of the time. The only thing they do not offer at this time are dimmable wall switches. Theirs are on/off. Otherwise with their line of sensors (temp, vibration, motion, and position) it make for a very robust home automation system

 

[SunFarmer]

jfpetesn, thanks for the lead. I have not heard of Yolink. With 1/4mi range it might just work for my remote switches. I will have to decide either to patch up my Insteon network or abandon it and migrate to Yolink.

 

[629658]

jfpetesn, thanks for the lead. I have not heard of Yolink. With 1/4mi range it might just work for my remote switches. I will have to decide either to patch up my Insteon network or abandon it and migrate to Yolink.

I lost faith in Insteon even though they got bought out. I now have about 20 Yolink devices in operation and I have had no issues with them. Insteon was always a mess trying to use their motion and their I/O linc. Yolink is interesting. I have a temp sensor on our chicken coop linked with an outdoor switch to control a heater and a fan. I have their moisture sensors under all my sinks linked to their water main valve that shuts off our water main. I have several of their outdoor outlets and smart plugs. Temp sensors in the freezers, and their garage door kit. Vibration sensor on our furnace that activates a UV duct light and one on our generator so we get an alert if our genny is running.

 

[629658]

I have many Insteon devices I’d probably get rid of if you have an interest

 

[SunFarmer]

Just got an email from Universal Devices that they are dropping support for the ISY994i. That's the final nail in the coffin, I'm migrating from Insteon to Yolink.

 

[BentleyJ]

Was just writing the same thing, you beat me to it.
Talking about interesting timing or coincidence, not sure which, I opened my email today and guess what? Universal Devices is discontinuing the ISY994i as of June. I sure hope the one I have keeps working for a few more years.
At this point since Yolink doesn't have a wall dimmer that's a deal breaker for me. They will most likely add this soon. Noticed Yolink is based in Irvine, CA same as Insteon and Smartenit.

 

[629658]

They seem hell bent on self destruction. Sad really Insteon always just worked. I guess it still does really but there is no new product development and I’m not sure they are even able to supply any new product right now. I bought a year of their web service so I have the time to transition. Yolink is in full new product development stage and while I haven’t done it yet they claim that their switches are linkable like Insteon so you can have virtual 3 way switches. In my experience their RF range is amazing. I have a couple of devices in a metal building about 400 feet from the hub and they work great. Insteon always had trouble in my metal buildings.

 

[629658]

I also have some Kasa products and they also work well. They are IP dependent so require a decent wifi signal whereas the Yolink is long range RF and not wifi dependent.

 

[BentleyJ]

I also have some Kasa products and they also work well. They are IP dependent so require a decent wifi signal whereas the Yolink is long range RF and not wifi dependent.

Thanks for the additional info. Ya, these guys are way off target. I had weather data on the isy that was being used to determine sprinkler ON time now that's gone, some kind of security problem?? UD is sending out ads for the Polisy device yet on the website all I see is something called "eisy" for $290. Don't know what to think.

 

[629658]

Thanks for the additional info. Ya, these guys are way off target. I had weather data on the isy that was being used to determine sprinkler ON time now that's gone, some kind of security problem?? UD is sending out ads for the Polisy device yet on the website all I see is something called "eisy" for $290. Don't know what to think.

I never purchased a PLC so when they went off line I was done. I purchased a homeseer unit but never used it since they were back relatively soon. There was a time Insteon had it all wrapped up but they never seemed to make into the mainstream. They just went years depending on their original technology while the rest of the world passed them by.